Syria - I just can't understand
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The Syrian uprising came about from the Arab Spring demonstrations occurring within the Middle East back in 2010. Before the uprising in 2011 there was no conflict in Syria, certainly none of the death and destruction happening now. Logically rather than try to assist the rebels, perhaps it would be better in trying to help restore the status quo before the civil uprising, that is, undesirable as it seems, assist Assad in getting his country back under his control and quickly quell the rebels. Sure it goes against the west's ideology of democracy, but I think this will be the best outcome for all globally. Less chance of more civillian lives being lost to what would be likely a long drawn out conflict, less requirement for western forces to occupy the country and assist in setting up a democracy and less tension between "super power" countries and let Assad deal with what would be small pockets of resistance. Perhaps even sanction that Russia and China be allowed to assist their Syrian ally, the West can step back and only assist in any humanitarian efforts. History has already shown that our military intervention does not work, Iraq is on the brink of a civil war and Afghanistan is heading that way too.
If those who initially started the civil uprising back in 2011 could see how their country would be 3 years down the line, I'm sure they would not have participated in the Arab Spring.
If those who initially started the civil uprising back in 2011 could see how their country would be 3 years down the line, I'm sure they would not have participated in the Arab Spring.
But....
Going back and supporting the status quo would mean approval of whatever Assad was doing such as torture and gaoling of opposition leaders. Can you imagine the Commons voting for this even if it was probably for the better good?
David
Doesn't mean to say they had any intention of trying to achieve all of those things in the immediate future.
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John Kerry appears is talking of the 'high confidence' they have in the intel.
There is now compelling evidence that Assda did this
Also it was interesting to hear Kerry, rather pointedly describe the French as 'our oldest ally'
I think we've become the 'roast beef eating, surrender monkeys'
There is now compelling evidence that Assda did this
Also it was interesting to hear Kerry, rather pointedly describe the French as 'our oldest ally'
I think we've become the 'roast beef eating, surrender monkeys'
Last edited by Martin2005; Aug 30, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
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I fail to see what difference any of this "evidence" makes in answering the most important question of how this should be dealt with...... surely that is the ultimate question that remains to be answered.
Evidence is only the fuel to fan the fire...... it's certainly not the water to extinguish it!
Evidence is only the fuel to fan the fire...... it's certainly not the water to extinguish it!
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I fail to see what difference any of this "evidence" makes in answering the most important question of how this should be dealt with...... surely that is the ultimate question that remains to be answered.
Evidence is only the fuel to fan the fire...... it's certainly not the water to extinguish it!
Evidence is only the fuel to fan the fire...... it's certainly not the water to extinguish it!
Eh?
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Meaning the "evidence" being reported does not resolve the issue / what has happened / what may happen........ resolution to all of this is THE most important thing moving forward is it not?
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I agree with that. Excellent post.
But....
Going back and supporting the status quo would mean approval of whatever Assad was doing such as torture and gaoling of opposition leaders. Can you imagine the Commons voting for this even if it was probably for the better good?
David
But....
Going back and supporting the status quo would mean approval of whatever Assad was doing such as torture and gaoling of opposition leaders. Can you imagine the Commons voting for this even if it was probably for the better good?
David
As it stands now, the west is heading for confrontation, not just with Syria, but with China and Russia, and because of Cameron's haste and ineffectiveness, we're no longer best pals with the biggest kid in the playground too. Cameron potentially made us the laughing stock of the world and diminished the influence we have on the world stage.
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From: The hell where youth and laughter go
I personally think that Cameron call of a commons vote was a very wise and shrewd move. Some may laugh and joke that he has not had his own way, but does anyone honestly know what he really wanted? It seems to me that people and the media assumed Cameron to go wading into Syria and remove Assad from power, in reality it could be the reverse. In which case he's got what he wanted, because it now means that we can sit back and let someone else do all the work for once and saves a lot of hassle in the future. Our track record of this in the past is awful, you just to look at Afghanistan and Iraq to realise this. we made a mess in Libya too.
It's quite possible that Cameron was under pressure from both leaders of other countries and military commanders to do something. This result means he can happily tell those who are pressuring him to act to sod off. And rightly so.
It's quite possible that Cameron was under pressure from both leaders of other countries and military commanders to do something. This result means he can happily tell those who are pressuring him to act to sod off. And rightly so.
I personally think that Cameron call of a commons vote was a very wise and shrewd move. Some may laugh and joke that he has not had his own way, but does anyone honestly know what he really wanted? It seems to me that people and the media assumed Cameron to go wading into Syria and remove Assad from power, in reality it could be the reverse. In which case he's got what he wanted, because it now means that we can sit back and let someone else do all the work for once and saves a lot of hassle in the future. Our track record of this in the past is awful, you just to look at Afghanistan and Iraq to realise this. we made a mess in Libya too.
It's quite possible that Cameron was under pressure from both leaders of other countries and military commanders to do something. This result means he can happily tell those who are pressuring him to act to sod off. And rightly so.
It's quite possible that Cameron was under pressure from both leaders of other countries and military commanders to do something. This result means he can happily tell those who are pressuring him to act to sod off. And rightly so.
Much less chance of disappointment that way
As bad as Milliband is he is cleverer than Cameron and on Thursday showed a ruthlessness not seen in politics for some time!
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Milliband did a complete U-turn in 24 hours. At first he said he would support military action after UN mission complete then he ruled any further action out in the future primarily to boost his own standing. Integrity - out of the window. dl
Lying, scheming, self serving pigs at the trough!
He played Cameron and won ... along the way I think it was the right decision, but made, as with most politicians, for at least partly the wrong reasons!
You might also do to ask why was Cameron so keen to get involved and I expect you won't find a solely altruistic answer to that one either!
Last edited by f1_fan; Aug 31, 2013 at 11:38 AM.
Syria - what is it that Cameron 'gets'?
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History will decide if we were right to "let them die" not you. Paddy Ashdown saw what doing nothing did in Kosovo so he will have a pretty good idea what will happen if you give a green light to Assad 
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I hate the fact that we now have to ask Putin if we can do the right thing.
EM is a worm and he will pay a heavy price for his duplicity
I think we have all seen what 'doing something' has done for Iraq and Afghanistan especially when the evidence for going in there was not complete (or in Iraq's case even the truth) and no objective was defined or ratified by the UN (very much like Syria) so cut the patronising supercilious tone from your waffling and accept the fact that no matter how many times you stamp your metaphorical foot the UK is not involved.
As said if you feel so strongly go and find a way to get involved! Plenty of charities or mercenary outfits out there that will be very happy to have you! Oh and take Martin with you
Last edited by f1_fan; Aug 31, 2013 at 01:59 PM.
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"let them die" - you should be in politics or journalism... you're made for it!
I think we have all seen what 'doing something' has done for Iraq and Afghanistan especially when the evidence for going in there was not complete (or in Iraq's case even the truth) and no objective was defined or ratified by the UN (very much like Syria) so cut the patronising supercilious tone from your waffling and accept the fact that no matter how many times you stamp your metaphorical foot the UK is not involved.
As said if you feel so strongly go and find a way to get involved! Plenty of charities or mercenary outfits out there that will be very happy to have you! Oh and take Martin with you
I think we have all seen what 'doing something' has done for Iraq and Afghanistan especially when the evidence for going in there was not complete (or in Iraq's case even the truth) and no objective was defined or ratified by the UN (very much like Syria) so cut the patronising supercilious tone from your waffling and accept the fact that no matter how many times you stamp your metaphorical foot the UK is not involved.
As said if you feel so strongly go and find a way to get involved! Plenty of charities or mercenary outfits out there that will be very happy to have you! Oh and take Martin with you
Sometimes even I can lose patience. You are an idiot with absolutely no depth of understanding, your simplistic and deeply selfish world view, lies in stark contrast to those you insult.
on this thread you have lied, deflected, told half truths and spun. And then you have the neck to turn around and accuse politicians of doing this.
You are a tragic example of a lot that is wrong with our society.
please refrain from posting responses to me any more as frankly you have become nothing more than an irritant
Sometimes even I can lose patience. You are an idiot with absolutely no depth of understanding, your simplistic and deeply selfish world view, lies in stark contrast to those you insult.
on this thread you have lied, deflected, told half truths and spun. And then you have the neck to turn around and accuse politicians of doing this.
You are a tragic example of a lot that is wrong with our society.
please refrain from posting responses to me any more as frankly you have become nothing more than an irritant
on this thread you have lied, deflected, told half truths and spun. And then you have the neck to turn around and accuse politicians of doing this.
You are a tragic example of a lot that is wrong with our society.
please refrain from posting responses to me any more as frankly you have become nothing more than an irritant
it is the same ol **** though, nasty dictator in power, westerners try to help and in some cases do help but the good stuff doesnt make news, the taliban or whichever extremist brigade happens to be around turns it into holy jihad. you`ve invaded our country -blah blah blah
whatever happens the west will be blamed
whatever happens the west will be blamed
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it is the same ol **** though, nasty dictator in power, westerners try to help and in some cases do help but the good stuff doesnt make news, the taliban or whichever extremist brigade happens to be around turns it into holy jihad. you`ve invaded our country -blah blah blah
whatever happens the west will be blamed
whatever happens the west will be blamed
Often with justification. We are not the worlds police and the empire is long gone. Keep some humility it will do our credibility some good in the long run.
Now calm down, put your toys back in your pram and go and have a few hours dong whatever leisure time activity it is your sort do to amuse yourselves!