BoozyDave

iTrader: (8)

I live in Mexborough and the new route will be less than a mile from our house, they will be knocking down houses that are still being built

It is a waste of money, £4,000,000,000 has ALREADY been spent on planning the route, yep, 4 BILLION QUID on planning!

spend more on the canal system with dredging and recommission or build new links, get some of the freight off the roads.

How many people can justify the 'actual' final cost of HS2 to save 40 minuite of the journey time?????

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I doubt anyone can. The only thing it's really got going for it is that it'll be adding much needed extra capacity to the network (assuming none of the existing lines get taken out of service once it's completed).

Martin2005

Other saddening insight into the British mentality.


Ooh we can't do that it's too much money, it only saves 40mins - FFS


So depressing

David Lock

Not sure what you mean Martin? So you think we should spend 50 + big ones when there are so many other needs for this money. Please elaborate. d

On-the-bog

the irony.

you realise more money is being spent re-opening old railways and stations now?

The railways are another thing that we got rid of when it was one of our greatest assets

Martin2005

Hi DL


My question back to you would be, when do you think this country should have high speed rail? The cost argument will never go away, and therefore I assume the answer would be never?


So whilst most developed countries have invested in this kind of modern infrastructure, we shouldn't?


We've had a year of politicians telling us that they want to make the country 'great again' and take back control, well here's a chance? I fear most of the bullcrap we've had to endure was more of a longing for the 1950s than the 2050s.


If we're serious about attracting trade and investment then we need to show we're serious. Did you know we've only built ONE new runway since WW2 - I **** you not.


Why does it take us decades to do anything? Look at London Airport expansion as a classic example.


Maybe we should just make do with what we've got and make our USP being retro - 'welcome to Britain, where thing are a bit crap'


BTW this isn't about saving 40 minutes, it's about saving MILLION OF HOURS.


Let's just get on with it - the cost isn't that high, given the length of time it will be spent over.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

The time saving from London to Birmingham with HS2 won't even be 40 minutes, it will in fact be 32, which really isn't am awful lot on a journey that will still take close to an hour. Compare that with the time-saving from Paris to Lille, which takes exactly one hour by TGV compared with close to three on conventional trains, or from Paris to Marseille at three hours by TGV against around ten if not more by conventional train, and it's understandable why the time-saving alone (at least for the first phase of HS2) doesn't really sell it as strongly as it did in Europe. I'll concede that the savings for the later phases look a lot more more interesting (halving of the times from London to Manchester and from Birmingham to Leeds), but ultimately you're doing a disservice to your cause if the main argument you're pushing for HS2 is the time-savings. Capacity expansion and introduction of a more modern and reliable service should be top of your list IMO.

David Lock

You make some good points of course Martin but I stand by my earlier post that at present this country is riding roughshod over many of its citizens. I mentioned a few before such as health generally and mental health particularly, homelessness, prisons, too low wages for many, appalling costs for uni education etc etc. I didn't even mentioned the destruction of our beautiful countryside. In my opinion these matters should be tackled first. If you choose to sacrifice your fellow citizens so some wealthy business guy can get to his lunch in London half an hour earlier then that's your choice. But it's not mine. If we can afford it in the future then fine but not now.
And I am not fully convinced as tt the economic arguments as HS2 may just result in people buying affordable homes away from London and just commuting via HS2 and clogging up London even more. I don't believe trains will ever travel at 250 mph in the foreseeable future. Technically yes but one derailment will kill that concept in its tracks (forgive the pun).
If they need another runway put some concrete down at Gatwick and improve the Gatwick Express line and knock out a suitable terminal.
As mentioned above there is much talk about de-Beechingising old lines. But it won't happen - all that is left are a few nice dog walking and safe cycling tracks.
David

legb4rsk

Either way it's a lot of money for a negligible gain for some people who use the route regularly.


I would rather see that kind of money & effort put into the housing crisis.The worst for 24 years.Far more benefit for society as a whole.

You need to know that 'affordable' means 80% of the market value.So really just a media spin phrase in real terms much like 'living wage' which is a paltry excuse for a minimum wage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38015368

The Government are boasting about spending 8bn on the housing budget.Their figures quote 57.8bn for HS2 so you know it's going to be much,much more than that.

David Lock

^^^^^^^^
Spot on

Martin2005

That's just a recipe for going backwards.

legb4rsk

I have nothing against us having the best transport system in the world just as we did in the past.I have everything against us having the worst housing crisis in a lifetime.

I guess it's about what you consider to be the best priority.
Fast trains linking evermore deprived societies is one option.

Councils spent 3.5bn on temporary accommodation in the last 5 years.That dosn't seem a to be a good use of tax payers money or a long term solution.All that money has gone to private landlords thus exacerbating the problem.

Martin2005

These issues are connected though.

And why do we have to choose between them anyway?

legb4rsk

I don't think we do but the Government is trying to limit spending.
If we had proper Public Private schemes to fund these projects then it would be possible.The problem is that the Government gives too much away at the beginning of negotiations so that it looks good on the balance sheet in the short term.Hence we are now paying more for our so-called 'privatised' rail network than we ever did under public ownership.

The big building companies have been granted more planning permissions over recent years to alleviate the housing shortfall but are hanging on to the land as the prices are rising so quickly.So big business is making a fortune out of these permissions & of course the councils have put nothing in place to force the building companies to hurry the process.So a win,win for them & a lose,lose for us.

hodgy0_2

Spot on, I think this is the crux of it Martin

We have been so brow beaten as a nation - we simply accept the choice

It is the politics/economics of the lowest common denominator

Frighteningly similar to the US, their infrastructure is a joke too

And like the US we have some of THE richest people/areas on the planet

I suppose you can't have both

BoozyDave

iTrader: (8)

The time taken now isn't unreasonable, so saving 30 mins for a rich person, so they can buy a big house up north and commute to London each day isn't good value. The only way the average working person will benefit is by working on building it, local trades (if local tradespeople are actually used), local wholesalers/distributors (if used) and sandwich shops , the national/international companies will make a fortune though. I wonder how much of the manufacturing will actually be done in the UK, I bet most of the contracts will be given to other EU countries

The government can't afford to continue services and they keep cutting budgets. We have already lost 4 local fire stations and now they are wanting to cut the night shift due to costs, a woman died last night in a fire, why do people think fires only happen during office hours?

All the new laws that have been brought in, but the police force keeps getting cut back and less frontline officers to enforce these new laws. smoking in work vans/smoking with an under 18 in vehicle/using mobile (not new). Every day I see drivers using mobiles and van drivers smoking, but there are no officers to enforce these new laws

Prisons are overflowing and criminals are getting away with small fines due to no room. Why not educate inmates in the construction trade, train them and get them building more prisons while they are serving their time. Then when they are released they will have a good skill/trade so they can get out of the no work/steal cycle

If a council sells off one house, they should build 2 more so they can keep or increase their housing stock, they will be able to house more people and then have less to pay out for emergency/temporary accomodation

Martin2005

Dave, have you ever been on a train?

This idea that they're the choice of transport for the well-heeled, quaffing champagne on the way back to their weekend castle is a bit far fetched😀

Let's not use our vital infrastructure as a weapon in a class war.

BoozyDave

iTrader: (8)

How many shelf stackers on minimum wage will make use of the faster train journey to get to work in London?

The people using it daily will be on a wage above the national average.

I've known lots of people who used to live in London, but sold up and bought bigger houses in expensive parts of Sheffield and then still had a big wedge of cash in the bank.

On-the-bog

It's going to make a big difference to Toton area being one of the depots.

Martin2005

Not sure what your argument here is...

Tesco shouldn't have shelf stackers?

We should only invest in infrastructure that shelf stacker can use? In which case we need to stop spending on airports and motorways.

BoozyDave

iTrader: (8)

I mean the people that will use it to commute to work won't be average earners on minimum wage. They will be earning above the average salary and in high company positions, hence being more useful to professionals.

Motorways are used by most people and can save time on a short journey. They didn't build the M1 so you can only get on in London and off in Leeds. There are junctions every couple of miles so everyone along the route can use it.

neil-h

Depends how much the average shelf stacker likes a day out in London.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I would of thought your average shelf stacker was more likely to use it as they can't afford to live in London.

BoozyDave

iTrader: (8)

Don't you think a shelf stacker can find work locally?