JTaylor

I don't. I think objectivism has led, ultimately, to this state being unable to honour its agreement with the people who serve it. Still, it's all academic.

bigsinky

that pun was horrible

JTaylor

The alternative to unregulated capitalism isn't socialism; it's regulated capitalism. Greenspan, Brown et. al. got it wrong; the experiment failed. They admit as much in their autobiographies. There were some winners, of course, but it wasn't the people who teach our kids.

tony de wonderful

But it's the market itself which demands less regulation.

Daryl

I don't recall commenting on any of that? I was merely correcting Pissy's erroneous assertions. However, as you have asked me the question, I will try to answer it!

My understanding is that both NHS workers and teachers had new schemes introduced, in 2008 and 2007 respectively. Under both of these schemes, the normal retirement age is 65 and the accrual rate is 1/60th.

Prior to those changes, both schemes had a retirement age of 60 and an accrual rate of 1/80th.

Therefore, both schemes have exactly the same benefits. I think you are getting confused about the NHS paying out only half at age 65 - somebody with 40 years service would get a pension of 40/60ths, the same as a teacher with the same amount of service.

What a lot of the fools on here don't realise is that you only get the full benefit of the pension if you have put in the years. I think some of them think everybody gets the same, regardless of length of service!

bigsinky

and non contributary

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Sorry Daryl........my fault

I've just gone back and re-read the BBC web page and I miss read it the first time around. My interest is that I'm 28 years into my NHS pension so that's 28/80 ths so far accrued and only another 12 years to go and thats my 40 years in service when I'll be 63, exactly the same time I pay off my mortgage LOL

Cheers

Shaun

pslewis

You do half understand the situation then ...... ??

All a Teacher has to do is freeze their current Pension (which pays out at 60) thus freezing their benefits under the old rules.

And then start the new Pension, under the new rules, which pays out at 66.

Therefore, as I said - and you fail to understand for some amazing reason - a Teacher on £50,000 a year can collect £37,500 Pension at age 60 ...... yet STILL work until 66 on full pay!

Thus receiving £87,500 a year at todays money - like I said.

Can you grasp this truth now?

pslewis

If you only have a couple of years Service in then, to be honest, striking is madness!! There is nothing to lose except catching up with the rest of the world!!

I partly understand Teachers with 30 years Service getting a bit concerned - but, they CAN freeze their current benefits, under the current Terms - therefore only the future Pension accurals are under the new Terms ..... nothing much to strike for there either!!

Like everyone knows (including Teachers) - the game is up, time to partly enter the real world ..... remember you still only have to work a directed 26 hours a week and have 12 weeks holiday per year!!

If I was a Teacher, I would keep my head down and hope the general public doesn't find out how I've been milking them for decades!!

How do you think they would feel if they all found out that Teachers are going to receive a 7.5% payrise in September, by moving up the payspine .... ?? I doubt they would be very happy - as they are the ones paying for it!!

bigsinky

unlucky shaun. my 40 years is up when i am 57 . retirement age is another matter though. it's now 68 for me

pslewis

I'm not 100% sure that the Pension age starts when you are 17?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I asked the question before but didn't get an answer, so I'll ask it again. Is the mechanism you're describing here what's technically known as Phased Retirement, or is it something else?

bigsinky

thats when i started. ok so closer to 18. 3 months of my 18th birthday.

pslewis

No, completely different .... I know what you call Phased Retirement as Flexible Retirement .... where you take your Pension at 60 and work reduced hours.

This could work just as well with Teachers .... collecting Pension at 60 and working, say, 3 days a week until 66. But, and this is the rub - most Teachers are Head of Deapartments by the time they get to 60 (or are in receipt of a large TLR Payment) and couldn't justify the extra TLR payments if only working 3 days.

So, a Teacher would always continue working full time whilst still collecting their original Pension which pays out at 60.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

What do you mean, 'could work'? It's already an established, formally allowed procedure under the existing TPS. What you forgot to mention though (or deliberately and maliciously omitted?) is that all the while that a pension is being drawn prior to full retirement, the accrued pension pot is actuarially reduced pro rata, so the total eventually taken out of the pot is perfectly fair.


Is this under the old scheme or under the proposed new scheme, and in whichever case, what's your source for this information? It's a pretty bold claim to make about any group or profession that they could claim their full salary and full pension simultaneously for a period of several years, so it's hardly unreasonable to demand some documentary proof of its veracity.

pslewis

You're starting to annoy me now - you're acting stupid and trying to be clever at the same time ..... let me try to make it very simple for you, so you have a chance of keeping up.

Teachers can retire at 60 currently on full Pension.

If a Teacher leaves the proffesion, then their Pension is frozen ... index linked and paid out to them when they reach the age of 60. Whether they are working full time somewhere else or not.

In the very same way a Teacher can leave the current scheme, just as leaving their job - but do not actually leave the job .... they then freeze their Pension and their final pay on closure is index linked until 60 when the full pension is paid out.

When they leave the old scheme they join the new scheme, the one they do not want to be 'converted' over to, and start their accural once again as a new entrant ..... this Pension pays out at 66 if the scheme is agreed and goes ahead.

Now, even you should be able to understand, yes?

A Teacher can collect their FULL Pension at 60 and still work until 66 on FULL pay!!

Therefore, the taxpayers of this country - in this instance - will be paying them TWICE for 26 hours a week directed time .............. good value? I don't think so!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Oh dear, looks like the blood pressure tablets aren't working how they should. Wish I could help, but I'm not a medic.


Assuming this were true, could the same not also be said of many other profession-specific pension schemes?


If by 'full' you mean a pension equivalent to the amount they accrued while they actually were a part of the scheme, what's so unusual about that? If instead you mean a pension equivalent to the amount they would have accrued had they never left the scheme, where's your evidence for this? What's your source? Why should we just take you word for it?


We're talking about a scheme which hasn't even come into force yet, the legislation for which still hasn't gone through parliament, yet you claim all of this as indisputable fact. So I say again, where's your proof, where's your source, why should we just take your word for it?


ditto above. We have nothing but your say-so that this in the slightest bit true, and given that you clearly have an axe to grind on this subject, a slightly more impartial source is definitely in order.

Daryl

But this is where you are wrong - the 'frozen' pension does not automatically pay out at 60. It only pays out when the person actually retires. Therefore, and I'm not sure how many more times I can be bothered to tell you this, a teacher cannot receive a pension and a full salary at the same time!

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Daryl

See my post 348...It's possible to recieve a pension and a salary at the same time in the NHS and I don't see why it is any different for other public service pensions.

I know quite a few policemen who have retired and have been re-employed..

Shaun

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

The question here isn't whether it's possible to receive a pension and a salary at the same time, it's whether (as Pete claims), with the introduction of the new scheme it will be possible to receive full pension and full salary at the same time, without actuarial reduction of the accrued pension pot that's being paid out from.

If you check the details of the NHS scheme I'm sure you'll find it's not true of that, and likewise if Pete ever comes up with a source for his claims, I'm sure we'll all find he's misread or misinterpreted some part of it.

pslewis

Dear God!

Clearly you are Trolling as no-one could possibly be as stupid as you're being right now.

I'm trying to make it simple for you and you still don't get it, do you.

Right - let's assume that a Teacher left Teaching in 1995 ... they become an outside Government worker (say, at Tesco) - they collect their Teachers Pension IN FULL on their 60th Birthday.

It doesn't matter one jot that they may still be working for Tesco until 66!!

Therefore, even YOU can see that they receive TWO paypackets between 60 and 66 ... one a Pension and one a Wage.

Has the penny dropped yet?

pslewis

Another one who struggles with the Pension Law

It is quite complex, but I have made it as clear as I can for you and Daryl ... I find it hard to make it any simpler, to be honest.

You cannot, repeat, cannot have an acctuarial reduction in your frozen Pension - it just doesn't - and can't - happen like that.

See my post above where someone has left Education and joined Tesco .... just because they are still working at 60 when their teachers Pension pays out DOES NOT mean it is actuarially reduced by any amount whatsoever .... you receive whatever Pension you had built up when you left!

So, if you left Teaching at 55 - after Teaching for 30 years - you will receive the FULL Pension of 75% of your Final Pay when you left (Index linked to RPI).

Therefore, even though you are working for Tesco at age 60 - you will receive that Pension in FULL ....... if you work between 60 and 66 you receive this FULL Pension PLUS your FULL Wages for your work at Tesco.

It is EXACTLY the same if you Freeze your Teaching Pension and still keep Teaching - all you do is start the new Pension with new Terms and Conditions.

I appreciate that I have a much more superior intellect than you - but I am doing my damned best to put it in language you will understand. As I said, it is a complex area - but one in which I have a very great interest .......

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

If that's the case, why can't you get it into your thick skull that I'm under no obligation to take your word for this or anything else you say, and that no end of you repeating the same unsupported claims over and over will ever change that?


If you have so much interest in it, it should have been simplicity itself for you by now to locate a suitable independent and verifiable source for your claims, and cite it here. The fact that you've failed to do so despite multiple requests over the past few days speaks volumes - you're probably talking out of your backside - again! - but being the reprehensible troll that you are, can't bear the thought of being proved wrong and admitting it. With all the above in mind, I suggest you save your blatherings in future for the more impressionable denizens of whichever Honda Civic forum you're currently inhabiting

pslewis

I'm done with you - you are trolling (and very bad at it, I must say!).

Don't waste the time of your only other Brain Cell replying - keep it for something 'Special', like pi55ing in the morning

DYK

Hey Everybody

Leslie

I feel I must mention how gracious it is of you to deign to communicate with "some of the fools on here"

Such a positive way to make a point and so polite as well!

Les

j999jmp

This may have been said but I see no harm in anyone claiming the pension that they have worked for and signed up to when they were employed and then seeking further employment. The further employment could be seen to be a way of topping up the difference between prior salary and 40/60ths pension. Also the pension may have been the pull that drew them to that career over another.

We all make desicions in life that lead us down our career path, to have the rug pulled out from you when you have probably planned your 40 years at work and then to have it extended is wrong. By all means change the rules for new starters as they have the choice whether to enter the profession or not.

I suppose you have to ask who you want in these roles? People that feel that they are committed for the long term, or those that will drift in and out? I know which I would chose. Ultimately they will be shaping future generations and investment in our future must be seen as a priority.

Thanks

Daryl

Thanks - you must admit, there are an awful lot of them on this thread!

pslewis

Daryl ... there is another thread hereabouts which is calling your name ... it's asking for SAP's - you conform on all counts

Daryl

In that case, this one has your name all over it!