Type R ARB's?
07 June 2011, 07:52 PM
#31
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voice of reason 
nice. I'm showing you how to spend thousands of pounds on toys for your car!
Yes those are the koni's. The install of the Koni's aren't too bad actually. Just time consuming. Easiest is to pick up a cheap set of blown classic struts and gut those. You can even have the legs nicely powder coated or whatnot if you want some bling. But this way, you have less down time and you can take your time on getting the koni's installed.
Here's a good how to thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=koni+install
Nice that you can pick up new V5/6 struts new. Its a good option too. If you go that route, perhaps disassemble the rears and add some quality grease in there so you won't have to do it later.
nice. I'm showing you how to spend thousands of pounds on toys for your car!Yes those are the koni's. The install of the Koni's aren't too bad actually. Just time consuming. Easiest is to pick up a cheap set of blown classic struts and gut those. You can even have the legs nicely powder coated or whatnot if you want some bling. But this way, you have less down time and you can take your time on getting the koni's installed.
Here's a good how to thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=koni+install
Nice that you can pick up new V5/6 struts new. Its a good option too. If you go that route, perhaps disassemble the rears and add some quality grease in there so you won't have to do it later.
Last edited by Arnie_1; 07 June 2011 at 07:57 PM.
07 June 2011, 08:27 PM
#32
You certainly are - that'll be more '000's on top of the ones on previous scooby's. I've said this Type R is a keeper though (
) which is whay I want to do things properlyI'm only presuming V5/6 struts can be bought from a dealer as I did get some for my V34 wagon last year...
What about some KYB AGX struts which folk rave about combined with the P1 springs?
07 June 2011, 08:38 PM
#33
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Rave about? Meh, they are alright. The valving isn't all that great. Its ok for the money and they hold up to abuse. I've installed many P1/AGX combos in my day. Mostly because people didn't want the effort of going the Koni route. The AGX's do better off road if that suits your fancy. But I feel its worth the extra money and effort to go with Koni, if you want an adjustable damper at a still reasonable price. Plus they can be rebuilt/revalved compared to the AGX, which can't. Non adjustable, go with the V5/6.
Or you could skip it all and go with some KW V3's. Its about the only decent mid-range coilover that I'd recommend. Independent compression and rebound adjustment. Leaves you with lots of options to fine tune the damping to your needs. If you don't care about damping adjustment but want to tweek ride height their V1 is very well valved. A nice set and forget setup really. I'd buy those over any of the low price taiwanese dampers that are so popular right now. I really can't stand them. Simply horrible stuff.
Or you could skip it all and go with some KW V3's. Its about the only decent mid-range coilover that I'd recommend. Independent compression and rebound adjustment. Leaves you with lots of options to fine tune the damping to your needs. If you don't care about damping adjustment but want to tweek ride height their V1 is very well valved. A nice set and forget setup really. I'd buy those over any of the low price taiwanese dampers that are so popular right now. I really can't stand them.
Simply horrible stuff.
Last edited by Arnie_1; 07 June 2011 at 08:40 PM.
07 June 2011, 08:51 PM
#34
Rave about? Meh, they are alright. The valving isn't all that great. Its ok for the money and they hold up to abuse. I've installed many P1/AGX combos in my day. Mostly because people didn't want the effort of going the Koni route. The AGX's do better off road if that suits your fancy. But I feel its worth the extra money and effort to go with Koni, if you want an adjustable damper at a still reasonable price. Plus they can be rebuilt/revalved compared to the AGX, which can't. Non adjustable, go with the V5/6.
Or you could skip it all and go with some KW V3's. Its about the only decent mid-range coilover that I'd recommend. Independent compression and rebound adjustment. Leaves you with lots of options to fine tune the damping to your needs. If you don't care about damping adjustment but want to tweek ride height their V1 is very well valved. A nice set and forget setup really. I'd buy those over any of the low price taiwanese dampers that are so popular right now. I really can't stand them. Simply horrible stuff.
Or you could skip it all and go with some KW V3's. Its about the only decent mid-range coilover that I'd recommend. Independent compression and rebound adjustment. Leaves you with lots of options to fine tune the damping to your needs. If you don't care about damping adjustment but want to tweek ride height their V1 is very well valved. A nice set and forget setup really. I'd buy those over any of the low price taiwanese dampers that are so popular right now. I really can't stand them.
Simply horrible stuff.Alright, so Koni's or perhaps STi's it is
08 June 2011, 08:27 AM
#36
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Just to give you a rough idea of how the Koni stacks up in damper force to new age STi and WRX:
The STi rates are comparable to the V5/6 damper rates. Subaru did minor tweaks to the curve but nothing major over the years.
The STi rates are comparable to the V5/6 damper rates. Subaru did minor tweaks to the curve but nothing major over the years.
Last edited by Arnie_1; 08 June 2011 at 11:18 PM. Reason: relinked image
09 June 2011, 04:25 PM
#38
Arnie - how are you at fine tuning?
As expected the car is totally transformed following suspension goodies and geo, however it does need fine tuning as there is understeer.
I'm wondering should the front or rear arb be stiffened to dial this out? Presently both are at their softest settings (24/22). I'm guessing go to middle hole rear...
Here's what I went for geo on geo settings:
The front camber was max'd out and no more could be had. Tech reckoned it could have been due to the other mods. I would have liked 1 3/4° but just couldn't get it. I thought about making the rears equal to the front, but this can be changed later.
The new front T1R's are not liking something in the set-up. If more (than reasonably necessary) lock is wound on mid corner they just scrub straight on, and really they should bite more...
As expected the car is totally transformed following suspension goodies and geo, however it does need fine tuning as there is understeer.
I'm wondering should the front or rear arb be stiffened to dial this out? Presently both are at their softest settings (24/22). I'm guessing go to middle hole rear...
Here's what I went for geo on geo settings:
The front camber was max'd out and no more could be had. Tech reckoned it could have been due to the other mods. I would have liked 1 3/4° but just couldn't get it. I thought about making the rears equal to the front, but this can be changed later.
The new front T1R's are not liking something in the set-up. If more (than reasonably necessary) lock is wound on mid corner they just scrub straight on, and really they should bite more...
Last edited by bonesetter; 09 June 2011 at 04:53 PM.
09 June 2011, 05:18 PM
#39
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Nice! Good geo guys you have there.
You will not be able to get -1.75 up front without running double bolts or camber plates of some sort. -1.5 is max and usually closer to -1.25. I've only been able to squeeze -1.5 with some serious tugging and pushing and loosening of key nuts and bolts on a GC. But normally what you got is about average. Some cars are assembled where they can achieve a bit more, but your numbers are pretty much spot on.
I'm assuming that you are getting understeer at a much higher speed than previously attainable? If so, hey, that's good! You've improved overall grip so that you are attaining higher cornering speeds. But, the balance isn't what you want still. Soooo...Are we talking corner entry, mid corner or corner exit understeer?
Remember, your car does not have DCCD so its got the basic FWD handling characteristics of a standard WRX/Turbo. Its never going to be an oversteering animal unless forcibly driven that way, i.e. pitching and flicking it into the corner. The basic driving technique will still be a certain manhandling of the car to get some aggressive weight transfer happening. Even the DCCD cars like this a bit to get set up into a corner. Its never going to react like an MX-5 or M3. You can't just punch the throttle and expect the tail to come around unless you have very very aggressive geo settings that make the rear very very loose (say, -2 to -3 up front and -.75 to -.5 in the rear). This set up is frankly scary to drive. For cone dodging autox type courses its fine and necessary to get easy rotation. But for street and road course/track its way too loose, for my tastes anyway.
So, long story short, fix the nut behind the wheel first, i.e. learn to drive!
Basic Impreza part trick is using left throttle oversteer to get the car pointed in the direction you want to go and then mashing the throttle. Or using trail braking to get the car rotated and gripping under brakes in the corner so that when you do get on the throttle you have max grip up front and aren't understeering. But this usually only works for slower, tighter corners with a faster entry. The typical medium speed opening radius kind of corners will usually have you understeering mid corner to corner exit if you are too heavy on the throttle. With this car, you should be modulating the throttle till you are pointed straight towards corner exit where you can really get on the throttle.
You can run less rear neg camber or more front camber, more rear bar, more caster, etc. etc. to bring your closer, set up wise.
Try upping your rear bar, see how you like it. Car will like to rotate more, especially on throttle lift and steer a bit more with the throttle, but again, nothing like a RWD.
What else to shoot for in the future? I'd look at more negative camber up front. -1.75 to -2 with your current rear is good. Aggressive street setup is usually having rear be about .5 deg less than the front. Its a decent balance of front end grip and rear end "looseness". How are you going to get this? Double camber bolts. Or using camber plates or WL Com-C tophats. More caster. Like I mentioned in your other thread, increase caster by rotating the rear pin on your front control arm. You can also squeeze more caster by loosening the ALK 19mm bolts while on the geo rack and pulling/pushing the control arm forward and then tightening the ALK bolts. If you go for camber plates, swap (left to right) and rotate the tops so that you can gain some caster while getting more camber. The more caster the better. I know a guy running about 10 deg of positive caster on his Type RA! I run about 5.5 to 6 deg on my GG.
Tires. What tire pressures are you running? How long have you had these tires? If they are brand new it will take a couple hundred miles of running in to get all the release compounds out of the tire to where you are accessing the grip they actually have.
You will not be able to get -1.75 up front without running double bolts or camber plates of some sort. -1.5 is max and usually closer to -1.25. I've only been able to squeeze -1.5 with some serious tugging and pushing and loosening of key nuts and bolts on a GC. But normally what you got is about average. Some cars are assembled where they can achieve a bit more, but your numbers are pretty much spot on.
I'm assuming that you are getting understeer at a much higher speed than previously attainable? If so, hey, that's good! You've improved overall grip so that you are attaining higher cornering speeds. But, the balance isn't what you want still. Soooo...Are we talking corner entry, mid corner or corner exit understeer?
Remember, your car does not have DCCD so its got the basic FWD handling characteristics of a standard WRX/Turbo. Its never going to be an oversteering animal unless forcibly driven that way, i.e. pitching and flicking it into the corner. The basic driving technique will still be a certain manhandling of the car to get some aggressive weight transfer happening. Even the DCCD cars like this a bit to get set up into a corner. Its never going to react like an MX-5 or M3. You can't just punch the throttle and expect the tail to come around unless you have very very aggressive geo settings that make the rear very very loose (say, -2 to -3 up front and -.75 to -.5 in the rear). This set up is frankly scary to drive. For cone dodging autox type courses its fine and necessary to get easy rotation. But for street and road course/track its way too loose, for my tastes anyway.
So, long story short, fix the nut behind the wheel first, i.e. learn to drive!
Basic Impreza part trick is using left throttle oversteer to get the car pointed in the direction you want to go and then mashing the throttle. Or using trail braking to get the car rotated and gripping under brakes in the corner so that when you do get on the throttle you have max grip up front and aren't understeering. But this usually only works for slower, tighter corners with a faster entry. The typical medium speed opening radius kind of corners will usually have you understeering mid corner to corner exit if you are too heavy on the throttle. With this car, you should be modulating the throttle till you are pointed straight towards corner exit where you can really get on the throttle. You can run less rear neg camber or more front camber, more rear bar, more caster, etc. etc. to bring your closer, set up wise.
Try upping your rear bar, see how you like it. Car will like to rotate more, especially on throttle lift and steer a bit more with the throttle, but again, nothing like a RWD.
What else to shoot for in the future? I'd look at more negative camber up front. -1.75 to -2 with your current rear is good. Aggressive street setup is usually having rear be about .5 deg less than the front. Its a decent balance of front end grip and rear end "looseness". How are you going to get this? Double camber bolts. Or using camber plates or WL Com-C tophats. More caster. Like I mentioned in your other thread, increase caster by rotating the rear pin on your front control arm. You can also squeeze more caster by loosening the ALK 19mm bolts while on the geo rack and pulling/pushing the control arm forward and then tightening the ALK bolts. If you go for camber plates, swap (left to right) and rotate the tops so that you can gain some caster while getting more camber. The more caster the better. I know a guy running about 10 deg of positive caster on his Type RA! I run about 5.5 to 6 deg on my GG.
Tires. What tire pressures are you running? How long have you had these tires? If they are brand new it will take a couple hundred miles of running in to get all the release compounds out of the tire to where you are accessing the grip they actually have.
09 June 2011, 06:03 PM
#40
I hear everything you're saying, but there is definitely something not quite right.
The understeer is pretty much all through the corner, being most pronounced mid and toward exit, especially if power is applied mid corner. It happens at pretty much all speed and is worst on the left (nearside), so right hand bends the nearside just wants to scrub off straight ahead.
There is a feeling of vagueness when turning into a right bend, the nearside front corner just doeasn't bite and start turning the car in as it should.
On the original tyres the nearside front has been worn nearly twice as much as the rest. This same understeer/scrubbing characteristic, worse left, was there before the changes
New tyres are Toyo TR1's
Great stuff btw, and thanks as always
The understeer is pretty much all through the corner, being most pronounced mid and toward exit, especially if power is applied mid corner. It happens at pretty much all speed and is worst on the left (nearside), so right hand bends the nearside just wants to scrub off straight ahead.
There is a feeling of vagueness when turning into a right bend, the nearside front corner just doeasn't bite and start turning the car in as it should.
On the original tyres the nearside front has been worn nearly twice as much as the rest. This same understeer/scrubbing characteristic, worse left, was there before the changes
New tyres are Toyo TR1's
Great stuff btw, and thanks as always
09 June 2011, 06:14 PM
#42
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Give the tyres some time to scrub in. The full depth tread plus the general greasiness of a new tyre will always feel vague and lack grip. Add to that Toyos usually have fairly soft sidewalls which make them feel less precise compared to other tires out there.
Play with your tire pressures a bit over the coming weekend and scrub those tyres in.
On the whole, turns where the driver weight is on the outside of the turn tend to be more understeery than turns where the empty passenger side is on the outside of the turn. Its definitely the primary advantage of running coilovers, to be able to cornerweight the car to even this turning balance. the car should turn the "same" left and right when corner balanced. When not, turning one way will usually elicit more understeer than the other side due to more (or less) weight on that side loading the outside tire.
Play with your tire pressures a bit over the coming weekend and scrub those tyres in.
On the whole, turns where the driver weight is on the outside of the turn tend to be more understeery than turns where the empty passenger side is on the outside of the turn. Its definitely the primary advantage of running coilovers, to be able to cornerweight the car to even this turning balance. the car should turn the "same" left and right when corner balanced. When not, turning one way will usually elicit more understeer than the other side due to more (or less) weight on that side loading the outside tire.
09 June 2011, 06:24 PM
#43
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Tyre wear can mean lots of things. For me, inside tyre wear means the person is running a) a bit of toe out or in, and b) they aren't running the proper amount of negative camber for the kind of driving they do.
Its like this, some times on my back roads I have run -2 deg camber up front and I was wearing out the outside edges. Basically this meant I was was not running enough camber for the speeds I was driving. Then there were weeks where that same -2 deg was giving me inside tyre wear, i.e. I was driving like a grandma and not driving aggressively enough to wear the tread evenly across the face of the tyre. Then there were times where tyre wear was even across the face which meant I was driving within the limits set by my car setup.
So, when someone asks me, how much neg camber should I run, I have to ask, how hard do they expect to drive at any given time. In addition, how important is tire wear vs. handling/grip?
You will get more grip and less understeer if you run more front neg camber than you are currently at if you aren't overdriving the tyres i.e. coming in way too hot and then mashing the throttle. Slow in fast out. So how hot are you entering these turns?
How hard do you expect to drive? What sort of tire wear do you expect to get?
Running 8 minutes toe out will contribute to faster inside tire wear if you do not run hard in the corners regularly. 0 toe is better for tires. A bit of toe out is nice for turn in.
Also, keep in mind your current muscle memory for the previous wheel tyre combo. They have a lower aspect ratio and lower tread depth. They will feel more precise than your higher aspect ratio with full tread depth tyres. As an experiment, throw on your old meats. See how the car does.
Its like this, some times on my back roads I have run -2 deg camber up front and I was wearing out the outside edges. Basically this meant I was was not running enough camber for the speeds I was driving. Then there were weeks where that same -2 deg was giving me inside tyre wear, i.e. I was driving like a grandma and not driving aggressively enough to wear the tread evenly across the face of the tyre. Then there were times where tyre wear was even across the face which meant I was driving within the limits set by my car setup.
So, when someone asks me, how much neg camber should I run, I have to ask, how hard do they expect to drive at any given time. In addition, how important is tire wear vs. handling/grip?
You will get more grip and less understeer if you run more front neg camber than you are currently at if you aren't overdriving the tyres i.e. coming in way too hot and then mashing the throttle. Slow in fast out. So how hot are you entering these turns?
How hard do you expect to drive? What sort of tire wear do you expect to get?Running 8 minutes toe out will contribute to faster inside tire wear if you do not run hard in the corners regularly. 0 toe is better for tires. A bit of toe out is nice for turn in.
Also, keep in mind your current muscle memory for the previous wheel tyre combo. They have a lower aspect ratio and lower tread depth. They will feel more precise than your higher aspect ratio with full tread depth tyres. As an experiment, throw on your old meats. See how the car does.
Last edited by Arnie_1; 09 June 2011 at 08:33 PM.
11 June 2011, 03:02 PM
#44
99% certain I have a knackered nearside damper, which is causing the dangerous nearside understeer
Have changed the rear arb to the middle setting which has improved the whole cornering attitude, and the right off side steers srtongly now
Where are KYB struts made?
Have changed the rear arb to the middle setting which has improved the whole cornering attitude, and the right off side steers srtongly now
Where are KYB struts made?
20 June 2011, 07:58 PM
#50
Bit disappointing today as I've still got the left-sided understeer 
Here's the geo sheet from this morning's session.
The new struts have provided more cabablity for negative camber so went with -1.75° and a tad less toe in as I thought this might be a factor
Everything feels much better, but there is still the disparity left to right. Car can be thrown into any left bend and it just takes everything. Right cornering makes the left front corner feel vague, the steering has a lighter feel, lacking bite and grip. Can understeer, but strangely if power put on mid-corner things improve If the corner is taken too fast then I'm not sure if powering on would bring it back...
Here's the geo sheet from this morning's session.
The new struts have provided more cabablity for negative camber so went with -1.75° and a tad less toe in as I thought this might be a factor
Everything feels much better, but there is still the disparity left to right. Car can be thrown into any left bend and it just takes everything. Right cornering makes the left front corner feel vague, the steering has a lighter feel, lacking bite and grip. Can understeer, but strangely if power put on mid-corner things improve
If the corner is taken too fast then I'm not sure if powering on would bring it back...
Last edited by bonesetter; 20 June 2011 at 08:01 PM.
23 June 2011, 02:29 PM
#51
Update...
Paid a visit to Powerstation, Tewkesbury this morning for them to investigate the handling issues. You can see they know their stuff and I would recommend them
Their equipment showed a variance with the hitherto well trusted Hunter system at my local Chemix. Short and tall the front cambers were 3/4° different
They have dialed in their preferred 'Classic Impreza road settings' reducing rear negative camber from 2° each side (these read 1 3/4° on Chemix's Hunter) to -1 1/2° and fronts to just -1°
Other issue picked up was bump steer - 'massive' as the car was lifted and compressed into its front damper travel. Their approach is to shim the steering rack down, instead of what I have now which is the Whiteline roll centre correction and bump steer correction kit. Powerstation said WL's kit worked the opposite to their method actually making bump steer worse
Lastly the front rear height difference is too much (negative rake). No one could work out why this was happening
Just from a couple of familar bends near home driving back the front, and indeed whole car feels better
Paid a visit to Powerstation, Tewkesbury this morning for them to investigate the handling issues. You can see they know their stuff and I would recommend them
Their equipment showed a variance with the hitherto well trusted Hunter system at my local Chemix. Short and tall the front cambers were 3/4° different
They have dialed in their preferred 'Classic Impreza road settings' reducing rear negative camber from 2° each side (these read 1 3/4° on Chemix's Hunter) to -1 1/2° and fronts to just -1°
Other issue picked up was bump steer - 'massive' as the car was lifted and compressed into its front damper travel. Their approach is to shim the steering rack down, instead of what I have now which is the Whiteline roll centre correction and bump steer correction kit. Powerstation said WL's kit worked the opposite to their method actually making bump steer worse
Lastly the front rear height difference is too much (negative rake). No one could work out why this was happening
Just from a couple of familar bends near home driving back the front, and indeed whole car feels better
23 June 2011, 08:53 PM
#52
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Nice. Just wondering, when you got new front dampers, did you get new rear dampers as well? If not, and you are on the original twin tube low pressure dampers it may be a reason why the rear is lower compared to the front.
24 June 2011, 11:22 AM
#54
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Yikes. Sorry mate, but you might want to change the rear dampers too as the damping properties between those two types of struts are very, very different. The STi inverted struts are quite a bit stiffer that the twin tubers you had on there. Not to mention, who knows what the condition of the rear dampers are too. Might also have a sticking or knackered rear damper which could contribute to your handling ills.
24 June 2011, 02:50 PM
#56
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Absolutely. Just consider it baby steps in improving the performance of this car. And now you really know this car inside out. Keep at it. Its fun watching its progress, that's for sure.
24 June 2011, 03:09 PM
#57
It might be fun for you - it's a world of pain this end 
Not to mention the bank balance... The rear diff needs a refresh now. After the last week or so of 'testing'
it's knocking to the point where I cannot risk driving on it anymoreSeriously, it is fun sorting everything out and I intend to keep this which eases the current stress. Of the 7 previous scoobies I've owned, this I have to say is the 'best'. The last one I sold - a 04 JDM twin scroll 370/360 I thought was good, but this R has alot to like. It's positively ballerinic in its lightness on the road. I hardly want to use the brakes for being too hard on her
24 June 2011, 05:32 PM
#58
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Have to say I found my classic nimble, but as I grow old (very ! ) I'm happy with the stable platform the Newage STI provides...
dunx
P.S. My next dilemma is do I do a "project" i.e. arched-caged hatch ? Or buy a Type-R for the garage ?
dunx
P.S. My next dilemma is do I do a "project" i.e. arched-caged hatch ? Or buy a Type-R for the garage ?
25 June 2011, 07:55 AM
#59
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Heheh. You have to pay to play!
Yes, every time I get back into a GC I'm always reminded/surprised at how much more nimble they are compared to the GG/GD/GR. The extra 200kgs is really something you can feel at the first corner. Though, admittedly, the interior and creature comforts definitely show their age, its still an eye opener at how stripped down the car feels on the road.
I can't remember, do the Type R's have a plated rear diff or are they viscous like a standard Classic? If they aren't plated, perhaps your knocking isn't your diff rather something else! Hunting down noises is truly one of the more difficult things.
Yes, every time I get back into a GC I'm always reminded/surprised at how much more nimble they are compared to the GG/GD/GR. The extra 200kgs is really something you can feel at the first corner. Though, admittedly, the interior and creature comforts definitely show their age, its still an eye opener at how stripped down the car feels on the road.
I can't remember, do the Type R's have a plated rear diff or are they viscous like a standard Classic? If they aren't plated, perhaps your knocking isn't your diff rather something else! Hunting down noises is truly one of the more difficult things.
25 June 2011, 08:12 AM
#60
He he, it would seem so. This car has had more than a couple of expenses I hadn't counted on. It's getting there though. Rear shocks will be here Monday
My other scooby is a 4 year owned much loved STi classic Wagon. Prolly 1295Kg's. The Type R is nearer 1190, and the ~200Kg difference is very noticeable, and probably 3 big blokes lighter than the almost 1500Kg new age JDM scooby I sold last year
I've just sold a ZX10R MAC#1 kit car which was corner weighted at 523Kg's. After experiencing this almost mass free acceleration (and deceleration) it would have to be something extraordinary to make me go back to a heavy car
Oh, to answer yours, I think Type R rear diffs are plated. As well as knocking there is an off load whine...?
My other scooby is a 4 year owned much loved STi classic Wagon. Prolly 1295Kg's. The Type R is nearer 1190, and the ~200Kg difference is very noticeable, and probably 3 big blokes lighter than the almost 1500Kg new age JDM scooby I sold last year
I've just sold a ZX10R MAC#1 kit car which was corner weighted at 523Kg's. After experiencing this almost mass free acceleration (and deceleration
) it would have to be something extraordinary to make me go back to a heavy car Oh, to answer yours, I think Type R rear diffs are plated. As well as knocking there is an off load whine...?
Last edited by bonesetter; 25 June 2011 at 02:02 PM.