Arrafats counter offer was to have control of the whole of the westbank and gaza without the westbank divided into three sections by as requested by Israel. It also requested that palestine have control of its own borders. Israel completly refused this offer and broke of peace talks, Their condition of negotiation was control of all the water rich areas of the west bank and anexation of occupied land that had illegal settlement.
Israels offer at camp david was a joke , Arrafat made a counter offer at Taba and the Israelis then broke off peace talks effectivly ending the peace process.

 

Perhaps not, but they lived relatively peacefully, without your European Jewish friends invading their lands.

Surely, with your views of different races etc, you wouldn't want to be a Palestinian, in his own land, popping down to his local Shell service station, where another Palestinian man had previously worked, to suddenly find that some European bloke who had just arrived in the country, can't speak the language, looks different, and was now trying to sell him add ons to his petrol?

 

Irrelevant. Anything Arafat would have countered, as being favourable to the Palestinians, would have been derailed by Israel. You would have to be incredibly naive to think anything different.

Palestinians have always been the underdogs here and always got a raw deal. Understandable when the other guy has the biggest bully in the playground to back him up.

 

What is your source for that?

 

Racist.

 

I have had to resort to talk to Tony in a language he would understand!

 

It's just a circular argument from you; for you Israel is the 'evil' 'bad man' so anything they must do is wrong and to be suspicious of...therefore they must have derailed the Camp David summit.

As far as I know Arafat never put down a concrete counter offer. This may be because he knew that Israel would never recognise the literal right of return for Pally refugees....something he is said to have made non-negotiable.

But otoh you can say that Israel was willing to go half-way with that point because monetary compensation was promised as part of an international fund.

That is what the peace-process is about - give and take - or at least supposed to be.

Yes Israel did insist of various things but you have to remember about the security situation, that last thing the Israelis want is for Gaza or the West Bank to turn into some staging post for the Egyptian army etc.

Given time Arafat could have got more by accepting the offer....by trading peace over the years after the establishment of a Pally state the Pallies would have got more military independence and border control etc.

Just to demonstrate why the Israelis are reluctant to give a Pally state full autonomy - after Camp David broke down you had a wave or terror attacks etc then the Intifada. They had good reason to be cautious.

Calling the US a bully is not an argument just a cartoon demonising. You should note that Israel has been attacked by many Arab countries several times! I've never seen US troops fight for Israel.

 

Obama clarifies new US position on ME including significant changes to its policy regarding Israel and the Palestinians

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13450481

Israel have immediately rejected the US proposal of course ... relations might get a bit frosty between them and the US now then

 

Calling me circular or whatever just shows you have no adequate response Tone.

My view of Israelis common sense mate. It is not in their interets whatsoever for the Palestinians to be a cohesive, stable, organised, and peaceful state. That is the biggest threat to them and I think you know that.

Having a state of virtual war with them is the lesser of the two evils, in their eyes.

Your points in the middle are actually valid and I agree with them (BLOODY HELL! SOMEONE CALL AN AMBULANCE!!!)

Your last two points are the usual hogwash. "We can't try for peace again, because they'll attack us!"

I called the US a bully, precisely because of your response. The absolutely MASSIVE military stepping in the US give Israel is more than enough. To ignore that is to ignore all reality.

I see you have made no comment of the invasion of Ashkenazy Europeans of the Middle East then? Obviously large scale immigration into anywhere is ok with you?

 

If I was to place a bet on either Netanyahu or Obama, it would be the former. Too much vested interest in keeping things the way they are. Obama is just a puppet and will do as he's told.

 

No I don't see why that would be the case....and I'm not sure you do either.

But ever time Israel do a uni-lateral ceasefire it get derailed by Pally violence.

The US gives aid to lots if countries, besides the Arab states were awash with Soviet supplied arms during the various wars etc.

I think Israeli immigration policy is not yours or my business.

 

A Puppet for who?

 

Not so sure about that as Netanyahu has a lot of enemies in Israel right now too. Obviously not hardline eneough - far too lenient on those nasty Palestinians

 

For whom.

 

I absolutely do see it and the evidence is all there for all to see, which is that if peace was so desirable, why haven't they achieved it.

So, tell me what you think Israels 'ideal' would be, in pertinent detail only please, ie on the areas that we all seem to like discussing: Statehood, governance, rights, independance, etc How far do you think Israel are from that 'utopia'? Do you think they will ever get there? And why not?

You know it's not as simple as that. To say that Palestinians react to nothing is too silly, even for you.


Not to the same extent Tone. Why do you keep regurgitating untruths? Does any other nation have the latest, state of the art weaponry from the US? The deal between the US and its 'allies' is that the Saudis for instance, will not get anything better than what Irael gets.

Are you not aware of these things?


So you mean you have no answer? Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian for once, then answer the question. It is called empathy, it's an 'emotion', us humans have those, including you.

You choose to deny things when they don't suit you it seems. A slight flaw to your arguments perhaps?

 

Whom do you think??

 

Polls show that most Israelis are willing to accept a two state solution on roughly the per-1967 borders, the problem is the details, plus issues like the right to return and religious issues (Temple Mount etc).

I have to be honest and say that most of the reason we don't see peace are on the Pally/Arab/Muslim side.

The whole Pally elite has an interest in keeping the conflict going, they gets tons of money from the EU etc and their political careers depend upon it. This was true for Arafat and even more so for Hamas. What use would Hamas be in a peaceful and successful state? They would be out of a job!

Then looks at others in the region exploiting the conflict. You have Hezbollah etc. Again those elites and their foot-soldiers would be working in McDonalds without this conflict.

Then you have corrupt Arab elites using Israel to distract their populace from their failings, you have this in Iran etc. Then you have international Islamists who exploit the conflict to recruit and claim victim-hood with etc to further their own demands and agenda..


They are instigating not reacting.

Hamas fires rockets to perpetuate the conflict.

Everything I said in that statement is true. The Soviets supplied weapons to the Arab side, and the US gives out lots of aid.

Israel is a country that is small and surrounded on all side by countries which much bigger standing Armies. Given that the US does not want to see Israel fall then it makes sense to not give/sell better weapons to surrounding states.

 

I don't know what to think?

The POTUS is a puppet according to you?

Fancy that!?

 

Sadly, that is probably true.

 

Then why is Netanyahu telling the POTUS to **** off? It seems silly to go against the will of the majority of your people wouldn't you say? The 'detail' as you call it will ensure that peace never happens.

People need to have the courage to say they are prepared to change.


Why does this not surprise me?

You have a point, except that those same elite will still be in power no? Peace is actually in the Palestinians interests. It is not in the Israeli interest.

Yeah but right now, they don't even have an idea of what a job is. I bet they would long to work even in a McDonalds as opposed to what they have to do now. Irony of McDonalds no?


This is true, but what's that got to do with you?

I disagree. Hamas has ony been there for two minutes. They were voted in, people turned to them because Israel undemined the Fatah organisation, Israel gets to keep what it has conquered if conflict persists. There will only be peace if Israel hands back land, that will not happen. Israel needs conflict to justify holding onto what it has and to distract from these 'details' as you call them.

Yes, it is true. The Sovs supplied them, in the past tense. What about the last 20 years?

This is too silly a statement to even think about responding, shows how little you know, or are prepared to admit. Another flaw to your POV.

 

Yes he is. With the hand of Israel firmly and about 6 foot up his backside.

Would you care to wager on who will win todays battle of wills, between Netanyahu and Obama?

If Obama wins I will take back everythng I have ever said about Israel and allow you, Tony, access to my SN Password, to be able type whatever you wish, under my name.

If Netanyahu wins, I want you to reciprocate.

How's that?

 

You are contradicting yourself, you are saying on the one hand that Hamas will still be in power if there is peace, but otoh you are saying Israel caused Hamas to be voted in by escalating the conflict meaning the Pallies were forced to turn to a militant political party (Hamas).

I've not doubt that some individuals could make the transition to a successful peace-time government, but by and large I don't believe that.

Good peace-time government requires different qualities....beside the whole Hamas organisation...same goes for say Hezzbollah is manifold, it's not just a few Leaders. The whole thing because redundant and useless in the event of peace. You would have formerly high-status individuals now on the scrap heap.

Conflict, war etc always give elites, those with political power a way to get more power. Political enemies can be removed, freedoms can be taken away. You just have to looks at the way Hamas and Hezzbollah deal with their internal enemies....they are ruthles about acquiring power for themselves ultimately.

But Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula, they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and dismantled settlements in the West Bank.

What about them, and what is your point?

No it makes sense.

 

Ok so if Israel don't withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, the Obama must be a puppet of Israel?

That makes no sense.

What evidence to do you have to show that Obama is a puppet?

A handful of Jewish people control the most powerful state on Earth? OK!?

 

the evidence is everytime someone fights with isreal america are the first ones there. in regards to THERES NO PEACE CAUSE OF THE ARABS AND MUSLIMS get your facts right!!!! if the hesidnk jewes dont agree with what the zionist are doing what does that tell you. they were jews in the protest in central london protesting against the zionist.

youtube clip 57 seconds and he aint muslim!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2mTgq-jw8M

 

When you peel away the layers the Jewish lobby does wield considerable influence.

 

No, I'm not. You mentioned Hamas, I didn't. I was referring to Palestinian 'Elites' in general. I don't consider Hamas to be part of that 'group'. I think that there is intention is honourable, even if I don't agree with their means. But it is easy for me to say that.


And that's as far as they'll go, so, as I said, there will be no peace, due to Israel.

I don't know, you're the one who keeps bringing it up. You tell me, lazy!

I'm sure it does.

 

I'm not sure what your point is Mus? Yes the US has help arm Israel but it's never fought Israeli wars as you seem to imply.

The US has aided many sovereign nations under threat, including Kosovo. Does that mean Obama is a Kosovian or Muslim puppet?

 

Sure they have influence but so do many Lobby groups in the US.

Enough influence to say Obama is 'their puppet'?

I'm afraid they have no proof of that and it's the old paranoid anti-semitism about Jews running the world in secret again.

 

You are the one who said the Pallies had to turn to Hamas after Israel cut Fatah off at the knees.

Tell me, if there was peace why would the Pallies still need Hamas? After all you said they only elected them because of the conflict?

It's quite obvious that Hamas people profit greatly from the conflict. It gives them a reason to eliminate political opponents (well documented...chucking Fatah people off buildings etc), and have total political power.

Without the conflict - and the 'threat' of Israel - why would the Pallies need them?

Israel did all that unilaterally, but all it has gained from the Pallies is more violence. It's hard from an Israeli POV to have faith that going to the 1967 borders will stop the conflict especially as Hamas have the ethnic cleansing of Israel in their charter.

Like I said Arafat was offered 95% of this at Camp David, there are other issues at stake which are hard to resolve. Obama making a speech sounds goof but he's not addressing issues of right of return, border control, religious sides which are hard to resolve.

 

It would seem, that as far as we (you and I) are concerned, it is the others' fault.

IMO, Israel holds more cards and really has the key to peace. I asked you previously what would mean peace for Israel. Palestinians not attacking Israel for how long? Then accepting the little bits of whatever Israel may deign to grant them? How long do you thnk that would take? Do you see it as realistic?

This is a totally one sided conflict, where Israel is completely in control. They have an iron grip on the freedom of the Palestinians, that is not a good thing. I asked you to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian and you cannot. That is why people like you do not resolve disputes, but rather create and perpetuate them.

Seems that, going on the above that the Israeli govt and Hamas seem to understand and need each other. Recipe for disaster.


They're just returning the favour Tone, as I keep saying, as bad as each other. You just favour one side so much, you are happy for the other to be killed off. If you honestly think that is a way for the future, I suggest you have a screw loose.

That is what you think isn't it?

Who will win, Obama or Netanyahu? Will you take my bet?