NISFAN

What a crock of ****!!!!

0-60 is not the be all, but it is a good indicator of performance. A car with a good 0-60, will also be pretty handy at 40-60, which is where most B road overtakes happen.

I have a 400Nm TDi engine under my daily driver bonnet, but would I rather overtake a another vehicle in my daily driver or my old PPP Sti? (both have the same peak torque), the Sti every single time, it will be able to overtake my diesel when that is trying to overtake, so is undoubtedly more capable to do so.

And as for the comment about Honda not seeing the future as being Diesel, another steaming pile of BS. For your information, the Honda 2.2 Diesel is one of the newest 'clean sheet of paper' designed diesels in existance, however it was outdated before it was even released, and not compatible with the general system updates that other manufacturers have managed to implement. How much has the 2.2D cost Honda? many millions, and a waste of that money.

Coming back to the topic, I don't think £33k is bad value for the Sti, it is bad value for the fit and feel of the car, but it's performance is pretty special for the price, and that is what Subaru WRX and Sti's have always been about.

pslewis

Price is what you pay

Value is what you get

They are two distinct, and different, things.

£33,450 is what you pay ...... IMO £19,999 is the value you get.

Others will have a different viewpoint.

I see that Subaru are not showing the price of the Impreza STi in their adverts, clearly they know it's not offering value for money ... they seem to think, amazingly, that an extra 20BHP and a Sat.Nav. will entice buyers!!

Any car with a price tag of £33,450 SHOULD have a Sat.Nav. as standard ... the 20BHP is nice, but you'll never notice it!!

NISFAN

I paid an additional £2200 for the built in Sat Nav in my daily driver, and a Brabus engine upgrade kit that adds 30bhp costs £1000 for the same car. (Try to keep up I know that might sound like a rip off to a man that buys sub £20k cars, but we in talking the next league here).

So easy to see that without these the Sti is circa £30k. Now I challenge you to find an AWD car that offers anything like the same performance as the Sti in this price range.

Don't forget that the Sti comes standard with HID headlights, normally circa £1000 upgrade on ALL other manufacturers models, it also comes standard with Alcantara trimmed Recaro seats, how much would those cost in any other marque? Perhaps another £1000? Blue tooth handsfree, ISOfix mountings, curtain airbags, 18" alloys, etc. The Sti is actually pretty loaded as standard.

Be a good chap and don't come back until you do

alfamarc

Diesel Honda

Diesel Honda

Diesel Honda

Yep - never going to convince me it's a good combination

It's like pension book and grey...

Only kidding! Hope it fits your requirements - just wouldn't fit mine as I like driving

pslewis

On the contrary .....

Me spending less than £18,000 on a car that beats the Impreza STi in every area, except, maybe, performance, means that I am highly intelligent and should be listened to!!

For what it's worth, my sub £18k car has Alcantara trim - it has kit that the STi hasn't.

You getting excited about your list of 'extras' is typical of someone b rainwashed into thinking that a Steering Wheel would be a nice option to have!!!

It's a trick Audi pull ....... but Subaru are very basic cars ... and they should therefore carry a basic price!! £33,450 is just plain silly - and everyone here knows it!! That's why they aren't selling any!

MaDaSS

I can see your viewpoint but I am struggling to see myself in another Civic. The coupe about broke my back it was too low down for my middle aged crap back, LOL.
Anyway, I am still interested in S3's or S4's. Yup bloody expensive but German and very well built, etc and as per you and your Civic, I like em!
One thing I will agree on though is the price. Its a massive hike from 18k new to my possible 35k used.
Hmmmm, looks like I missed my chance when I saw that superb midnight blue Type 20 hatch on Litchfields webbie the other month. Awesome and only 29k.

pslewis

I have a bad back and the Civic Coupe is fine .... the Type R was tougher on the bones than a Type S.

My Classic was a hard ride ........... oooooeeeerrrr missus!

The S3 and S4 cannot take a TowBar - so, no good for me. And they don't 'look' that special/interesting IMO ................. certainly £30k + doesn't seem value for money.

And I like my Japanese reliability!

rapidly

I don't buy the VAG/Skoda diesels are better than Subaru - for the roads that I drive a lot (think twisty A93 to glenshee and the A85, in scotland) then the low centre of gravity and AWD makes a lot of sense when you never know what surface you'll be on round that corner.

Even a borrowed s-line A6 couldn't cut it. it kept lifting wheels and going into electronic driver-aid meltdown on bumpy corners. (not enough suspension articulation I think)

I was chatting to my local dealer who told me that they had basically sold out of everything except forrester diesels after last winter. Impreza WRXen and Diesels were basically all sold out with just dealer pre-registered ones kicking around the network.

The older subaru owners on the forum will remember the last time this happened - just before the turbo 2000 came out and there were long waiting lists for impreza turbos that caused a huge hike in prices at the time. the length of the waiting times and the tricks dealers were pulling (like selling already sold cars to higher bidders) even made it onto watchdog.

pslewis

You are not seriously stating that we are about to see Impreza prices rising and queues forming around the streets where there is a Main Dealer??

Please say you aren't saying that!?

And, isn't it strange for a Dealer to state that cars are selling like hot cakes, there is no stock, buy now while prices remain low!!!

I suspect that Subaru UK imported 25 STi's and they have sold them over the past 12 months ..... now, you could say that 'Every STi is sold, we have no more'. But, taken in context, it is nothing far from a terrible result.

And if they were selling all they could import ..... why add extras to try to sell them?

NISFAN

Your Honda Civic Diesel supposedly beats the Sti on everything except performance? What a dim witted statement, that is like saying a MacDonalds happy meal does everything that a Michelin star restaurant prepared steak does except for the taste.
Surprised you didn't spot that the Kia Cee'd does everything a Honda Civic does for almost half the price. not so intelligent after all are we?

You also bang on about extras and being brainwashed.....The Subaru comes standard with all these goodies, they aren't making you pay extra for them.

Furthermore, please stop calling the STi an Impreza, because it is not. It is also not £33 450.......... list price today shows them at £32,995. And not being an in demand main stream car, can haggle the price more than you could on your Honda.

Are Sti's selling? Not really, but it is a performance car with a small audience, bet they are selling better than Mitsi EVO's.
Fact is Sti's have never sold in large numbers, and the 2003 PPP Sti I had was not far off £30k 8 years ago, so £33k for the newest one is not bad at all in my book. If it weren't for the mileage I do I would have one over the Merc in an instant. Certainly heaps more fun to drive.

pslewis

If you are going to use an analogy it pays to make it accurate

In the eating out example you have quoted, the taste of the food is relevant - VERY relevant. The performance of a car is not, whatever you may like to think, of the upmost importance to a car buyer ..... the intelligent car buyer looks at the overall package and calculates whether the extra power is useable (in the case of the Impreza STi it isn't useable for 99.9% of the time, so - for most people - it's utterly pointless sacrificing all the rest of the package for that). And that's why they are not selling.

Let me use your analogy and put it in its correct context .......

Subaru Impreza STi :-

This is like turning up to a Michelin Star Restaurant.

You arrive and the outside looks just like any other greasy spoon outlet.

You sit down at a camping table with formica top, the cheapest table you have ever seen.

You pick up a plastic fork and a plastic knife, they bend and buckle in use.

The chair you are sitting in is a £3:99 folding stool from LIDL's.

The Wine waiter brings your bottle of the finest - but, he has drunk half of it for himself!

You enjoy the meal - it tastes lovely ....... the sweet is fine, particularly the icing on the cake!

The bill arrives and is shocking, the cost is twice as high as you could ever imagine ... but, because of the lovely icing on the cake, you think it is worth every penny - so, knowing you are being really stupid, you pay up and leave.

---------------------------
Honda Civic Diesel (could be most other cars, but let's stick with this one) :-

This is like turning up to a Country Inn - no stars, no fancy claims.

You arrive and the outside looks just like a picture on a chocolate box - stunning!.

You sit down at a solid oak table with highly polished surfaces, the finest quality table you have ever seen.

You pick up a solid silver fork and knife, they are of extreme quality and are fine to use.

The chair you are sitting in is a grand oak chair of the finest workmanship.

The Wine waiter brings your bottle of the finest - not only that, but you get two bottles for the price of one!

You enjoy the meal - it tastes lovely ....... the sweet is fine, you enjoy the icing on the cake!

The bill arrives and is shocking, the cost is quite simply amazing value for money (in comparison to that Michelin Star Restaurant you stayed at yesterday!) half what you would expect to pay for the quality of the surroundings and environment.

OK, you do acknowledge that the icing on the cake wasn't 'quite' up there with the Michelin place ..... but, does that really matter in the grand scheme of things? NO - you very rarely have the iced cake anyway!!!

Smiling at how well you have chosen your place for this evenings meal, you pay up and leave - extremely satisfied.

-----------------------

And that is an accurate analogy using your restaurant example ..... in short, you have to put up with so much tat and low quality to enjoy that 'icing on the cake' in the Subaru that most people think it's simply not worth it. Not when they can get all they want from something better built and half the cost!!

It really is as clear as that I'm afraid ..... and the clever money is going elsewhere.

Sad, but true.

Pack_Scoob

I'm loving this review by steve larkins on the Civic that we keep being referred to....

Negatives Problems = with rattles, build quality, firm ride, rear visibility, disappointing fuel economy

Build Quality Problems

The build quality of my particular 2007 UK specification Honda Civic was initially marred by problems with interior trim rattles. The hard ride of the car makes the problem seem worse. Based on my initial ownership experience, Honda have some way to go to eliminate annoying rattles and squeaks from the cabin of the new Civic.

A road test revealed several problem areas (particularly on 55 and 06 registration ES and EX cars) including a poorly designed and fitted interior headlining with more rattles emanating from the internal black plastic surround on the rear hatch. My Civic also had a particularly annoying resonance (buzz) from behind the dashboard at an engine speed of around 1900 rpm (70mph in 6th gear).

Reliability, Faults & Problems

The previous Honda Civic has been very reliable and Honda are offering a 3 year, 90,000 mile warranty on the 2007 Civic so they must have a high level of confidence in the mechanicals of the car.

Unfortunately, in the 4000 miles covered in my 56 registration Civic, I've had problems with the bump stops on the Front Shock Absorbers and with the fuel filler release which refused to open despite pulling on the release catch in the car. These are both common faults with the new Honda Civic and modifications to fix these issues are available from Honda. The shock absorber problem results in a knocking noise when going over bumps and is a common fault on the new Civic, which is usually covered under the manufacturer's 3 year warranty. To fix the Front Shock Absorber fault is a 2.5 hour service operation.

For more information on car problems and fixes, try the new Euro Honda Civic Forum.

Fuel economy of my new shape Honda Civic Ctdi is relatively poor at around 44mpg with a mixture of short journeys and motorway runs. Around town, on the urban cycle I achieve around 35mpg - again quite poor compared to Honda's official fuel economy figures. If you have a heavy right foot, then expect to get around 30 - 35mpg if you drive the car in a 'spirited fashion'. It's also worth noting that the car's fuel computer seems to over-read by about 5 to 6mpg, so the car actually does less MPG than the Civic fuel computer average shows!

So all in all a bit of a lame duck

NISFAN

I have made it accurate.......the point about comparing a Michelin Restaurant prepared steak, and a Happy meal is spot on. Note I never said anything about eating the meal in the restaurant.

Fact is, if you want a thick, juicy, tasty steak you have to pay a little extra for it. You on the other hand clearly can't afford a steak, so you sit and eat your happy meal, and try to convince yourself it does everything a prime cut of rump does. And in part it does, fills that hole in your stomach. Job done.

As for the sensible money buys something else? You are spot on right. If you want to go though life choosing sensibly, crack on.

Others choose to live life to the full, eat steak as often as they can, buy 300BHP AWD cars (and then spend even more money modding them), and generally live life to the full, with no regrets.

I think we all know which camp you are sitting in, yep the sensible boring old fart camp. You must really feel sad with your own life to come on here trying to stop others enjoying theirs.

Perhaps go onto the iPhone forum and tell them that your push button Alcatel does almost everything the iPhone 4 does for a fraction of the price.

pslewis

Where you eat the Steak is vital ..... if you have to eat it in a Cesspit then - to be honest - I would rather enjoy a Happy Meal in the Park

urban

iTrader: (1)

***** bun fight

Go and sort it out like men

pslewis

I'm just using the Honda Civic Diesel as an example - as I can speak with absolute authority on both the Impreza STi, Classic Impreza and the Honda.

The same can be said about most cars for sale today - almost without exception (and really sadly) they ALL have better quality materials used in their construction!

The report to which you refer on the Honda is the first Civics to roll off the line ... we are now in 2011 and all known faults have been dealt with, it is, without doubt, a superior machine all round.

I do note, however, that the much more serious problems of STi engines blowing up seems to have passed you by? The rattles in the Honda are the headlining loose ... the rattles in the STi Impreza are the big ends being destroyed ............... I'll let you guess which one 99.9% of the population would rather have as a fault

NISFAN

Yep, an Alcantara trimmed Recaro, and a leather trimmed steering wheel is one hell of a cesspit

pslewis

Take a look down to your left ... yes, past the plastic gearknob ... see those heater controls? The ones that look like they came off an Amstrad 1972 Music System .. give them a twiddle - horrible, isn't it?

That's what I mean .............

NISFAN

If you were driving an Alfa Romeo, a car with undoubtedly the best interior in a car costing less than £30k, then I would understand where you are coming from, but you drive a Honda Civic. There is no way on Earth you could claim that to be the ultimate interior, I would say not bad for a Jap car, at best.

Glad you like being at the helm of the Starship Enterprise, with the annoying eco lights flicking on and off. Can honestly say that it is not for me, and although not a fan of the quality of dashboard materials in the Sti, think it is a nicer place to be than a civic.

Beam him into outer space Scotty

NISFAN

Hey, I wouldn't feel right sorting out a zimmer framed Honda Civic driver.

Honda showrooms are the only place where 95% of the car parking spaces are marked with the Disability Wheelchair sign.

Pack_Scoob

What a ignorant person you are.....you have your opinion you are not an absolute authority on anything, maybe masturbating?

Thats the last i'm saying on this as i can't be arsed talking with someone who clearly wont listen to anything any one else has to say. Your smokey diesel is bollocks, doesnt even get built any more, isnt powerful, has iffy build quality, and its own computer lies about the mpg to make its one redeeming feature look better than it actually is.

Ciao

pslewis

I find it odd, very odd, that a zimmer framed old geezer can be so far advanced (than a 20'something is) in the love of the modern, advanced, spaceship like interior of the Honda.

I would have thought that someone who was driving in the 1960's would much prefer the tacky, rectro ****, interior of an Impreza STi Hatchback of 2011 vintage .... but, no, here we have the proof.

pslewis

Errrrm, is this your dummy over here?

Anyway, back on topic .... the addition of 20BHp and a Sat.Nav will not revive the sales of the Impreza STi IMO.

They need to do so much more than tinker at the edges ... like use better materials and make it £15,000 cheaper, then it will have a chance against the competition.

barnshaw

iTrader: (1)

regardless of your detrimental comments of the subaru and its redeeming features which you are slandering the issue is that you have to post on here for a reaction. It is without a doubt insecurity in your own choice of vehicle albeit not the worst but certainly in terms of performance, leagues different from the superior subaru.

it takes the better person not to go onto a honda forum and slander the weaker and more boring choice, but from personal experience on owning both i would rather pay a larger premium for what is without a doubt a better car.

mantazini

iTrader: (25)

I know Mr P is an old lad, but did realy honda were brainwashing people since then?

urban

iTrader: (1)

Just take the zimmer off him and throw it down the road a bit

NISFAN

PSLewis,

Once again, (think this is the third time) there is no such thing as a 2011 Impreza STi. It is just an STi, no Impreza. Sunken in yet?

The Honda interior clearly brings back fond memories of Captain James T Kirk and co. to you. I'm too young to have been that excited about it, but no I am not in my 20's.

Ha ha, just for fun I have specced the only 2 options that you can on a Honda Civic type R. i.e. metallic paint, and icon plus pack with 19" wheels. Price for this beauty? Just under £26 grand.

Does it have Recaro seats? Erm No
Does it have a 4 wheel drive system? No
Does it have a sporty rear wheel drive system? No, just a cheap FWD system.
Does it have the famous Jap spec LSD? No
Does it have 4/5 doors? No cheaper spec 3
Does it have electric rear windows? No, no moveable windows in the back
Fitted with a tracker? Nope
Xenon headlights? Nope
Seats 5? Nope 4 only
Folding mirros as standard? Nope

Right then down on power, not great spec as standard, must be good on fuel economy? No, 31mpg combined, urban is actually only 22mpg. Emissions 215. Testers say more like 27mpg.

Oh and it has that lovely expensive(NOT!!!) looking fuel cap as standard, and with only a 50 litre tank you will be looking at it quite often

Ha ha, it is no wonder people aren't buying the Type R either then.

NISFAN

rickya

iTrader: (18)

lolol

pslewis

You will no doubt also note that I sing Subaru's praises plenty of times!! In terms of outright performance, it's a very good machine - just not as conclusive as it was 11 years ago when I bought mine.

It is reliable to a fault - well, mine was ... the engine issues stated in the Sti's are a horrifying read.

I suspect that far more Honda Civics have been sold over the years than Subaru Impreza's? Like they say, everyone can't be wrong! When the buying public moves from buying something to NOT buying it then there is something badly wrong somewhere.

There were waiting lists for Impreza's in the old days, there are now waiting lists of cars awaiting buyers.

For me, at this time, the Honda Civic was (and remains) the far better all round car to buy with ones own hard earned. That's not easy for me - a Subaru Man - to say ... I wanted Subaru to show me a car I could buy, I was desperate to buy another Impreza - desperate!!

The STi was a fine drive, extremely fast ... but, I did have to ask the question, "When can I use this power?" - answer? Very rarely.

It's a one trick pony - and that particular pony has been shot by Car Tax, Fuel and Residual values which rival a DAEWOO ....... it's sad, really sad, but the truth needs to be aired