Another happy RaceDynamix customer - on an ESL
11 April 2011, 10:52 AM
#121
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Again i go back to my previous post,
"its not what you say its how you say it"
There are a lot better ways to approach what you did / said.
For instance "has duncan explained to you the potential issues you'll have running that power through a slanty. Im sure he will have but just checking, If you want to ask anything PM me !"
Now im no Rocket scientist but thats sounds a lot better to me.
Again pointing out errors is only trying to help people which is a good thing. Just better ways to put things thats all
"its not what you say its how you say it"
There are a lot better ways to approach what you did / said.
For instance "has duncan explained to you the potential issues you'll have running that power through a slanty. Im sure he will have but just checking, If you want to ask anything PM me !"
Now im no Rocket scientist but thats sounds a lot better to me.
Again pointing out errors is only trying to help people which is a good thing. Just better ways to put things thats all
I couldn't square the figures presented with the spec, that's all.
Bear in mind I have a motor trade background and I tend to "feel" what's going on mechanically. I could feel the potential pain sat where I was!
If Duncan feels charge temp won't be an issue running with a slanty at 325 bhp, which was all the info I had, I'm sure he'd say so.
I'm only surprised he hasn't actually said that throughout all this!
11 April 2011, 11:46 AM
#122
Yes, I can see where you're coming from, but I'm essentially a practical engineering type. I don't see things in terms of emotional involvement.
I couldn't square the figures presented with the spec, that's all.
Bear in mind I have a motor trade background and I tend to "feel" what's going on mechanically. I could feel the potential pain sat where I was!
If Duncan feels charge temp won't be an issue running with a slanty at 325 bhp, which was all the info I had, I'm sure he'd say so.
I'm only surprised he hasn't actually said that throughout all this!
I couldn't square the figures presented with the spec, that's all.
Bear in mind I have a motor trade background and I tend to "feel" what's going on mechanically. I could feel the potential pain sat where I was!
If Duncan feels charge temp won't be an issue running with a slanty at 325 bhp, which was all the info I had, I'm sure he'd say so.
I'm only surprised he hasn't actually said that throughout all this!
We are not talking about any and every slanty intercooler Alan, we are talking about the ins and outs of this particular car and the set up and efficiencies of it.
If we were talking about the average 16yr old scooby engine, with 16yrs of abuse etc etc then yes the amount you would need to push it to get to that power would be beyond safe but as I stated earlier, running the same boost profile, same ignition, same fuel ratio on a tired engine (to get to your 280bhp) versus one that is working very efficiently there is zero extra work on the turbo (if anything less work) yet more power will result for no gain in charge temp. Yes a better tmic or preferably a fmic ( harveys hybrid ones works great) would produce more again.
I will wait and see what the car produces next week on the dyno when some of the issues are resolved but as explained earlier and agreed with you on the phone, the cylinder heads on this are what I believe is making a difference. Whether the dyno figure is true or not is a whole new ball game and having mapped on lots and lots of dynos up and down the country (lots of DD both old DOS versions like yours and SRR or newer windows versions at APT, AFR or Rowleys, Dastek, Maha, Sun) including one set up in a shed in deepest darkest wales ... they all vary massively and some will vary day to day for the same car, same mods by as much as 5% or more. (Len at SubaruforYou knows the ins and outs of that particular unmapped wrx ppp car's 14bhp variance for no apparent reason 256bhp one day and 242bhp a few days later.) Having lots of experience of mapping on more than one dyno makes these observations valid I feel. They are very useful tuning tools but I tend to agree with Harvey on the validity of the figures.
11 April 2011, 12:16 PM
#123
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We are not talking about any and every slanty intercooler Alan, we are talking about the ins and outs of this particular car and the set up and efficiencies of it.
If we were talking about the average 16yr old scooby engine, with 16yrs of abuse etc etc then yes the amount you would need to push it to get to that power would be beyond safe but as I stated earlier, running the same boost profile, same ignition, same fuel ratio on a tired engine (to get to your 280bhp) versus one that is working very efficiently there is zero extra work on the turbo (if anything less work) yet more power will result for no gain in charge temp. Yes a better tmic or preferably a fmic ( harveys hybrid ones works great) would produce more again.
I will wait and see what the car produces next week on the dyno when some of the issues are resolved but as explained earlier and agreed with you on the phone, the cylinder heads on this are what I believe is making a difference. Whether the dyno figure is true or not is a whole new ball game and having mapped on lots and lots of dynos up and down the country (lots of DD both old DOS versions like yours and SRR or newer windows versions at APT, AFR or Rowleys, Dastek, Maha, Sun) including one set up in a shed in deepest darkest wales ... they all vary massively and some will vary day to day for the same car, same mods by as much as 5% or more. (Len at SubaruforYou knows the ins and outs of that particular unmapped wrx ppp car's 14bhp variance for no apparent reason 256bhp one day and 242bhp a few days later.) Having lots of experience of mapping on more than one dyno makes these observations valid I feel. They are very useful tuning tools but I tend to agree with Harvey on the validity of the figures.
If we were talking about the average 16yr old scooby engine, with 16yrs of abuse etc etc then yes the amount you would need to push it to get to that power would be beyond safe but as I stated earlier, running the same boost profile, same ignition, same fuel ratio on a tired engine (to get to your 280bhp) versus one that is working very efficiently there is zero extra work on the turbo (if anything less work) yet more power will result for no gain in charge temp. Yes a better tmic or preferably a fmic ( harveys hybrid ones works great) would produce more again.
I will wait and see what the car produces next week on the dyno when some of the issues are resolved but as explained earlier and agreed with you on the phone, the cylinder heads on this are what I believe is making a difference. Whether the dyno figure is true or not is a whole new ball game and having mapped on lots and lots of dynos up and down the country (lots of DD both old DOS versions like yours and SRR or newer windows versions at APT, AFR or Rowleys, Dastek, Maha, Sun) including one set up in a shed in deepest darkest wales ... they all vary massively and some will vary day to day for the same car, same mods by as much as 5% or more. (Len at SubaruforYou knows the ins and outs of that particular unmapped wrx ppp car's 14bhp variance for no apparent reason 256bhp one day and 242bhp a few days later.) Having lots of experience of mapping on more than one dyno makes these observations valid I feel. They are very useful tuning tools but I tend to agree with Harvey on the validity of the figures.
Of course, the Windows version uses the same DD dyno bed, it's just set up for those who grew up digital as opposed to analogue. Me, I like them with ***** on! We set up all kinds of cars of course, including a large number of carburated classics.
Do you have the facility to measure temp pre and post intercooler? I'm sure we'll all benefit from the research.
In case you're wondering why I'm so interested, we're very much into this particular theme, as we help to run a classic touring car which uses a stock pattern intercooler. We've spent plenty of time evaluating the data and acting upon it, the result of which helped the man to a championship class win. Just running this car as we found it was not an option!
11 April 2011, 01:29 PM
#126
Excellent. It looked for one second there that you'd just mapped it up without giving a thought to charge temp. I'm glad that's cleared up as I wouldn't want anybody else to think 325 on a slanty was ok in normal circumstances!
Of course, the Windows version uses the same DD dyno bed, it's just set up for those who grew up digital as opposed to analogue. Me, I like them with ***** on! We set up all kinds of cars of course, including a large number of carburated classics.
Do you have the facility to measure temp pre and post intercooler? I'm sure we'll all benefit from the research.
In case you're wondering why I'm so interested, we're very much into this particular theme, as we help to run a classic touring car which uses a stock pattern intercooler. We've spent plenty of time evaluating the data and acting upon it, the result of which helped the man to a championship class win. Just running this car as we found it was not an option!
Of course, the Windows version uses the same DD dyno bed, it's just set up for those who grew up digital as opposed to analogue. Me, I like them with ***** on! We set up all kinds of cars of course, including a large number of carburated classics.
Do you have the facility to measure temp pre and post intercooler? I'm sure we'll all benefit from the research.
In case you're wondering why I'm so interested, we're very much into this particular theme, as we help to run a classic touring car which uses a stock pattern intercooler. We've spent plenty of time evaluating the data and acting upon it, the result of which helped the man to a championship class win. Just running this car as we found it was not an option!
The consensus is that an intercooler upgrade is necessary at this power level. However if memory serves me correctly several cars cars have ran at this power level with the slanty intercooler. Indeed Japanese Performance Magazine had their project RA running a dyno figure of 330 bhp and managed a quarter mile time of 12.2 seconds. It did several runs and did quite a few track days too before coming to a sad end (rolled).
11 April 2011, 01:35 PM
#127
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Look forward to catching up with that one mate..
11 April 2011, 01:44 PM
#129
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The consensus is that an intercooler upgrade is necessary at this power level. However if memory serves me correctly several cars cars have ran at this power level with the slanty intercooler. Indeed Japanese Performance Magazine had their project RA running a dyno figure of 330 bhp and managed a quarter mile time of 12.2 seconds. It did several runs and did quite a few track days too before coming to a sad end (rolled).
On a ten lap plus session in summer time even the RS one creeps over 40 degrees.
I would normally seek a comfort zone when speccing anything, and if you can't find one, you'd better make allowances for it.
11 April 2011, 01:46 PM
#130
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11 April 2011, 08:35 PM
#134
With all due respect Harvey please read the thread post 3.
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...on-an-esl.html
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...on-an-esl.html
11 April 2011, 08:40 PM
#135
The consensus is that an intercooler upgrade is necessary at this power level. However if memory serves me correctly several cars cars have ran at this power level with the slanty intercooler. Indeed Japanese Performance Magazine had their project RA running a dyno figure of 330 bhp and managed a quarter mile time of 12.2 seconds. It did several runs and did quite a few track days too before coming to a sad end (rolled).
Einstein, do you have any idea on air charge temperature on a slanted intercooler at 330 bhp?
Just because a car can do it and do some runs at 12.2 seconds doesn't mean it is safe or adviseable.
The air charge temperature on an STi 3 with an improved non slanted intercooler is well in excess of 70C at 335 bhp on the sprint from 0-100 mph. I can only tell you it is in excess of 70C because the ACT guage used at the time ran out of scale at 69.9C.
I assure you that 70C ACT is a bad thing.
12 April 2011, 06:27 PM
#144
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And i thought this thread was about a re map!!!
Anyone got a good second hand Hybrid front mount intercooler for an early classic for sale????
Andy
12 April 2011, 07:53 PM
#145
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