Libya
04 April 2011, 06:49 AM
#212
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I see that the former Libyan Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa has defected to UK, an action better described as a rat leaving a sinking ship.
He is about to be interviewed by Scottish Authorities about Lockerbie.
I just wondered if he were to admit that Megrahi was just the fall guy and had no direct involvement in the bombing. Remember the evidence against him was pretty flaky.
I rather doubt we would ever be told this?
Or perhaps they will just jail him and send him back to Libya if he gets a stomach ache?
dl
He is about to be interviewed by Scottish Authorities about Lockerbie.
I just wondered if he were to admit that Megrahi was just the fall guy and had no direct involvement in the bombing. Remember the evidence against him was pretty flaky.
I rather doubt we would ever be told this?
Or perhaps they will just jail him and send him back to Libya if he gets a stomach ache?
dl
04 April 2011, 08:04 AM
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Additionally, and you know this:
Zimbabwe - China veto'd 2008 UN Resolution
Burma - Chinese client state
North Korea - Chinese client state
China is a permanent member of the UNCR.
Somalia - failed state. What military action do you propose?
Ivory Coast - I'd love to hear your ideas, David. What do you propose?
In Libya, the UN could intervene.
Zimbabwe - China veto'd 2008 UN Resolution
Burma - Chinese client state
North Korea - Chinese client state
China is a permanent member of the UNCR.
Somalia - failed state. What military action do you propose?
Ivory Coast - I'd love to hear your ideas, David. What do you propose?
In Libya, the UN could intervene.
I think David meant events just a little bit earlier than this last few months. And then of course there is the USA's continual fanning of the flames to help them get what the US wants.
04 April 2011, 08:14 AM
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04 April 2011, 08:24 AM
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Excuses, that is all the above its. Convenient ones. Iraq had no UN resolution. Nor did Afghanistan. Doesn't stop us getting involved when it suits the West's (or rather the US's) agenda.
I think David meant events just a little bit earlier than this last few months. And then of course there is the USA's continual fanning of the flames to help them get what the US wants.
I think David meant events just a little bit earlier than this last few months. And then of course there is the USA's continual fanning of the flames to help them get what the US wants.
04 April 2011, 09:28 AM
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What I had in mind was what the West were going to do when/if there are rebellions in all the other nations in ME. Saudi, for example, is far more important to the West than Libya. But the US would
surely veto any support for rebels there? As I said a hornets' nest. dl
surely veto any support for rebels there? As I said a hornets' nest. dl
04 April 2011, 09:45 AM
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Mission to last six months and guess what? Yep more budget needed
Here we go again. Now it's to last months and we need to put more money into it. Told ya so!!! So now we are involved in three conflicts that have no clear objective, no future plan and no endgame in sight!! Marvellous!
Here we go again. Now it's to last months and we need to put more money into it. Told ya so!!! So now we are involved in three conflicts that have no clear objective, no future plan and no endgame in sight!! Marvellous!
04 April 2011, 10:02 AM
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I see that the former Libyan Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa has defected to UK, an action better described as a rat leaving a sinking ship.
He is about to be interviewed by Scottish Authorities about Lockerbie.
I just wondered if he were to admit that Megrahi was just the fall guy and had no direct involvement in the bombing. Remember the evidence against him was pretty flaky.
I rather doubt we would ever be told this?
Or perhaps they will just jail him and send him back to Libya if he gets a stomach ache?
dl
He is about to be interviewed by Scottish Authorities about Lockerbie.
I just wondered if he were to admit that Megrahi was just the fall guy and had no direct involvement in the bombing. Remember the evidence against him was pretty flaky.
I rather doubt we would ever be told this?
Or perhaps they will just jail him and send him back to Libya if he gets a stomach ache?
dl
Les
04 April 2011, 10:07 AM
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Politically. Keep out of it. And hope that the region remains reasonably stable.
Your choice.
But I would recommend that we take a bit more care about shaking the hand of the devil and if we lose a bit of business well, tough.
dl
04 April 2011, 10:21 AM
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Morally. Support the oppressed masses but recognise the possible consequences i.e. hike in oil prices, no more lucrative arms/oil deals, our troops committed to going out there. Likely chaos in country. Major cost implications.
Politically. Keep out of it. And hope that the region remains reasonably stable.
Your choice.
But I would recommend that we take a bit more care about shaking the hand of the devil and if we lose a bit of business well, tough.
dl
Politically. Keep out of it. And hope that the region remains reasonably stable.
Your choice.
But I would recommend that we take a bit more care about shaking the hand of the devil and if we lose a bit of business well, tough.
dl
04 April 2011, 10:42 AM
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'We can afford to shoot at things but I'm afraid 10,000 nurses will have to be sacked.....sorry!'
We really are getting involved in way too much.
04 April 2011, 10:58 AM
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dl
04 April 2011, 12:49 PM
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Footnote and slightly off topic. I have always felt that many of the fundamental teachings make a lot of sense but then, of course, up pops Al-Qaeda or that Koran burning screwball in the US who "amend" the basic principles for their own agendas. The Old Testament may be the exception to this rule though
dl
Last edited by David Lock; 04 April 2011 at 12:56 PM.
04 April 2011, 01:04 PM
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I'd rather a state make decisions based on reason rather than morality per se. Morality could mean anything depending upon one's belief system as you allude to. I don't want to see Politicians having the power to use the State to further their belief systems...then we could head in any direction, and that Politician would probably have too much power if he/she was able to do that. If you think about it all the great Dictators/Tyrants etc had certain moral agendas; this was half the problem.
04 April 2011, 01:29 PM
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I'd rather a state make decisions based on reason rather than morality per se. Morality could mean anything depending upon one's belief system as you allude to. I don't want to see Politicians having the power to use the State to further their belief systems...then we could head in any direction, and that Politician would probably have too much power if he/she was able to do that. If you think about it all the great Dictators/Tyrants etc had certain moral agendas; this was half the problem.
@ Les.
I accept, with evidence to support the belief, the teachings of The Enlightenment. I'm happy to be grilled on that, but think it would be better done in a seperate thread.
I covered a lot of this off in the Stephen Hawking thread, IIRC.
04 April 2011, 03:26 PM
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I ask anyone the same question as I asked f1: Should GB withdraw its status as a permanent member of the UN Security Council?
Last edited by JTaylor; 04 April 2011 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Spelling.
05 April 2011, 12:34 PM
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I find I can soldier on satisfactorily enough without upsetting others by following "natural law" combined with what my conscience tells me.
Seems to tie in well enough with what many religions offer as basic guidance as a way to lead your life in society.
Les
Seems to tie in well enough with what many religions offer as basic guidance as a way to lead your life in society.
Les
05 April 2011, 01:02 PM
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The idea that reciprocity is a foundation for morality is an interesting one too and supports natural, rather than supernatural law.
This is on topic, isn't it?
05 April 2011, 05:37 PM
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Small wars, big consequences- Western involvement in foreign conflicts has a history of backfiring and re-shaping policies at home.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...378852480.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...378852480.html
06 April 2011, 01:57 PM
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I'd go with that, Les, and we can thank The Enlightenment (or The Age of Reason) for our understanding of natural law and the notion of a conscience.
The idea that reciprocity is a foundation for morality is an interesting one too and supports natural, rather than supernatural law.
This is on topic, isn't it?
The idea that reciprocity is a foundation for morality is an interesting one too and supports natural, rather than supernatural law.
This is on topic, isn't it?
Les
06 April 2011, 02:56 PM
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Sure, although the thinkers from the Enlightenment attributed temperance, fortitude, charity, hope and so forth to reciprocity and reason rather than the divine. Aquinas attributed the natural law to the divine 750 years or so ago, 500 years later, when our conciousness had matured, people like Locke saw no reason to devalue the beauty of the natural with the childlike supernatural. Mechanistic explanation and empirical analysis replaced wish-thinking; the rational took primacy. Well, in the West, anyway.
06 April 2011, 02:58 PM
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06 April 2011, 09:13 PM
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Small wars, big consequences- Western involvement in foreign conflicts has a history of backfiring and re-shaping policies at home.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...378852480.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...378852480.html
07 April 2011, 10:46 AM
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Sure, although the thinkers from the Enlightenment attributed temperance, fortitude, charity, hope and so forth to reciprocity and reason rather than the divine. Aquinas attributed the natural law to the divine 750 years or so ago, 500 years later, when our conciousness had matured, people like Locke saw no reason to devalue the beauty of the natural with the childlike supernatural. Mechanistic explanation and empirical analysis replaced wish-thinking; the rational took primacy. Well, in the West, anyway.
Les