The Zohan

Leave out the pointless analogies as well eh

andythejock01wrx

Well, I didn't think it was lame - quite amusing actually!

I think "being ready to play within 24 hours" is the crux of the matter. I quite agree with the view that that arab nations should have led the charge, but the fact is that wasn't on offer! If we'd waited for the arabs to organise Benghazi would have been back in Gaddafi's (sp) hands by now.

This thread would have been along the lines of "should we have done more to help the people of Libya?".

AtJ

JTaylor

I was rather pleased with it.

Anyway, who's in this coalition? Let's do names...

The Zohan

7
Not all of us need to have a picture painted in primary colours to understand the situation

If we arm/supply the rebels than we are instigating regime change. Gadaffi is the leader of Libya, like it or not so to arm and assist the rebels (because that is what they are) we are effectively meddling and forcing regime change - Iraq anyone?

I fully support a no-fly zone but it should not be the west enforcing it, it should and indeed could be the ALN - stop thinking of them as a bunch of camel riding rag heads who haven't got a clue. The officers went to the finest military colleges in the UK and US as did the pilots. The crews are trained by military and ex military crews. These aren't fools or the mentally handicapped and they should be in the driving seat. Some of these countries border Libya or are 10 mins flight time from there.

They have the equipment and know-how!

JTaylor

Names, Paul, I need names. Who are Team Arab?

The Zohan

Yes, i am sure you are My kids have the same satisfaction when they hand me one of their fingerpaintings

Which coalition and what names, what are you getting at.

Lets look at this another way jackboots on the other feet
Civil war in the UK, rebels forces trying to overthrow Camoron and put in place a new government. Would we want Libya to arm the rebels ( as they did with the IRA?) to fight and kill our own people or get together with other Arab countries to bomb our military???

Or would we want and expect intervention from the UN nations or US who are much closer to us in outlook and we have a certain amount of trust and understanding built up over many years.

This is how the situation can and will be exploited by those in the Arab world who are aginst the west. Do not foeget Gadaffi has many followers in his own country and outside

The Zohan

Look back at the list of nations i posted, of course you can discount some of them, the likes of Somalia but there are Militarily credible countries on that list. Do you think Kuwait just sat back and said we had a lucky escape from Saddam - they ordered 40 F18s + Apache helis and ground defence/offence kit. That's just one out of many.

please i know you are not a fool so stop with the obtuse attitude it does you no favours

JTaylor

OK, you're pro-intervention, but not by the West for the reasons you outline above. I understand your position. So, who in the Arab league was and is in a position to intervene?

JTaylor

Kuwait?

DCI Gene Hunt

technological capability - Yes
asset numeracy - Yes
strategic deployment capability - Yes
logistics supply chain (sustain in-theatre support) - No
strategic planning - No

So no, they're not in a position to actually 'lead' ... but likely Saudi could easily deploy assets to participate in the activity.

DCI Gene Hunt

Yugoslavia?

The Zohan

Look back at the list of nations i posted, of course you can discount some of them, the likes of Somalia but there are Militarily credible countries on that list. Do you think Kuwait just sat back and said we had a lucky escape from Saddam - they ordered 40 F18s + Apache helis and ground defence/offence kit. That's just one out of many.

please i know you are not a fool so stop with the obtuse attitude it does you no favours

tony de wonderful

There is no Palestinian nation, there is a Palestinian Authority which governs most of Gaza and West Bank.

The so called 'Palestinian people' is only defined in so far as being Arab people displaced or directly effected by the creation of the state of Israel and subsequent Arab-Israeli wars. There is no other common or binding factor which makes the Palestinians a 'people'.

Israel withdrew from Gaza so you can't argue it has territorial ambitions, it's certainly not held in check by Hamas since Israel could level the place if it wanted and build settlements - but it doesn't want to.

If you want to talk about aggression how about the recent rocket attacks and the bus bombing?

tony de wonderful

Going to a good college does not equal know-how necessarily.

JTaylor

Off topic.

The Zohan

How exactly do you know the likes of Saudi/UAE/Kuwait are not in a position to head up a credible force??? and if not then why not use the west's logistical support???

Who leads this is important and it should not be the west!

The Zohan

The Libyans are not exactly head and shoulders above the other Arab nations in equipment and expertise are they

How else will they gain the hands on experience by sitting back and watching?

They train, they simulate battle conditions in the same way we do to gain experience to allow them to put it to good use.

Your comment above hardly constitutes and credible reason Tony

JTaylor

I do genuinely understand your position on this. So, in Team Arabia we have:

UAE - Allies
Kuwait - Allies
Saudi Arabia - Allies

How would this have been percieved by the Arab on the street? Or the Persian, for that matter?

tony de wonderful

They don't want to support 'too much' because they have their own internal problems and dubious moral status as authoritarian governments/states.

So tipping over another despots might give their internal opponents too many ideas.

But otoh they don't want to alienate the west too much so they support a little.

The Zohan

As the Arabs leading the way and doing something positive to save Arab lives, not the west interfering, simple!

The Zohan

And that makes it OK for the west to take the lead interfering in ME affairs again, god help us!

tony de wonderful

I don't know but I know there will always be a Hegamon so by definition someone has to interfere.

The alternative is a dark age with no hegemony just chaos.

JTaylor

Wouldn't this be Western intervention by proxy and sold as such to the Arabs and Persians on the street?

The Zohan

A lot easier if the ALN is leading/heading up any action and not seen as a puppet which could be on interpretation but easily dispelled if the west is just supporting with supply of the logistics and not in the front line aslo it can be portrays as a good thing with the west helping/support the Arabs and less easy to play the western/infidel/arab killing/aggressor card as seen in Iraq.

The ALN asked for help asked for a no-fly zone so support them with that and that's all.

The Zohan

Sublime to the ridiculous, there are degrees in between...

JTaylor

Ok, so let's assume that the mother of all spin doctors has convinced the Arab and Persian world that the West are undertaking a neutral, humanitarian, supporting role whilst its allies, the UAE, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia enforce a UN resolution and employ all necessary means to enforce it. Assuming this is pulled-off, that Team Arabia had the incentive, the military capability, the diplomatic cohesion and the desire to support a democratic uprising in North Africa inspite of civil unrest on their doorstep - assuming all the prerequisites are in place - could it have been put together in 24hrs?

The Zohan

More importantly - We will never know will we!

,Do you think the ME countries air forces sit around all day playing cards and racing camels?

All air forces have a instant response capacity and with the current state of play in e ME i guess are on an increased readiness - that would make sense and i do doubt the Arabs are much different. Given their geography in relation to Libya it is not that far flight time - i have said this all already and not surprisingly it was ignored, i think that can be referred to as trolling?

As i have already said it would be easier to sell if led by the Arab world and especially after Iraq.

DCI Gene Hunt

The problem is that nearly all Arab states are actually dictatorships in their own right, so it would be a pot/kettle moment if they decide to support operations.

Another consideration is that no one actually knows who the rebels are and what their intentions are post regime change.

Also will the UN force start targeting the rebels if they start shelling Tripoli - let's face it we're almost there.

tony de wonderful

But you know I'm right and history shows it.

JTaylor

No, whilst incredible (in my view), it's ultimately unfalsifiable.