JTaylor

544 elected members of parliament voted in favour of intervention and 15 against. Of the 15 who voted no, 11 were Labour Party MPs (including the two 'tellers'), one Tory, two members of the SDLP from Norn Iron and Caroline Lucas, the sole Green Party MP. Almost all of the 50 MPs who spoke in the debate were in favour of intervention. This is overwhelming.

These MPs are our elected representatives. In order for you to legitamately qualify them as being unrepresentative you would need to offer-up a credible and convincing alternative to our parliamentary system.

For this statement to stand-up to scrutiny it needs to be qualified. What data have you drawn upon to arrive at this conclusion?

And in order for this statement to stand you need to prove correct the preceding statement.

vindaloo

I would say that the mission's boundaries have already "crept" away from direct intervention where civilians are in danger.

Question: At what point is "defending one's home and one's neighbours", driving hundreds of miles across the desert to fight on someone else's patch?

We now seem to be supporting a revolution to further destabilise the Libyan regime.

It's going to be civil war if it's not already. After war there will be chaos and profiteering and looting. It takes time to employ and train police and army.

It's going to be Iraq V2 without "Western" soldiers coming home in body bags.

I hope to god I'm wrong.

J.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Perfectly put

One point of order too - the current UK government is not an elected government. The people made no clear choice. It was formed by the Queen.

A big up to Germany's stance on this. Look after the home before tending your neighbour's gardens.

Finally aside from the obvious does anyone really think we are involved in Libya for the oft quoted humanitarian reasons? LOL!

tony de wonderful

Why what government did you vote for?

Answer = you didn't - you voted for an MP as always.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

This was quoted:

We elect MPs and if enough of them are from the same party the government is automatically formed (elected). This time it wasn't and the government was formed at the official request of the Queen. The people made no clear decision as to which party they wanted to govern and hence technically the government was not elected.

This and the low overall election turnout may go some way to explain why several polls have inidcated a lack of support for the action in Libya by the public while the MPs broadly support it.

andythejock01wrx

Agreed, it would be far better if those countries took a lead, although that doesn't mean we shouldn't.

Germany is still unlikely to become involved in such situations due to their post WW2 (we're really sorry about attacking everyone about us/Sobibor) angst.

The Russians seems to just like to contradict what the yanks do.

See no reasonable reason for the arabs not to put their money where their mouth is though!

andythejock01wrx

F1 and Tony - you're both up early on a Sunday morning!

JTaylor

544 elected members of parliament voted in favour of intervention and 15 against.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Clue is in my username and the fact that Melbourne is 10 hours ahead of the UK And no, Tony is not here with me

andythejock01wrx

lol at both (I won't ask who won!).

andythejock01wrx

And JT's an early riser too!

tony de wonderful

You vote for a local MP never for a government per se.

JTaylor

I understand the sentiment completely, but would ask how this would translate in practical and diplomatic terms. What would this Arab League lead intervention look like? What would the command structure be?

Here's the list of Arab League Members:

Algeria
Bahrain
Comoros
Djibouti
Egypt
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Palestine
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen

It's worth trying to pick out a coalition, that were militarily capable, ready to react and that would have been able to lead the US, France and Great Britain.

JTaylor

If I look busy I don't have to talk to the missus.

The Zohan

The ALN is a middle Eastern version of the UN amongst other things.
Between the ALN members' states it has a real and viable military capability with hardware and training for men and officers provided by the likes of the US, UK, French, Germans and Belgians.

It has the ability and capacity to enforce a no-fly zone. It feels a little like the west/UN is set up for a fall if things go badly and the ALN to take the glory if it goes well.

The ALN should step up and take the lead.

andythejock01wrx

Mine is still in bed!

JTaylor

More like a very watered down EU but without the structure.

What does this AL fighting force look like? Does it exist?

The Zohan

Here it is - the ALN fighting force!
Stop being obtuse

[Each member state has one vote in the League Council, while decisions are binding only for those states that have voted for them. The aims of the league in 1945 were to strengthen and coordinate the political, cultural, economic, and social programs of its members, and to mediate disputes among them or between them and third parties. Furthermore, the signing of an agreement on Joint Defense and Economic Cooperation on 13 April 1950 committed the signatories to coordination of military defense measures.
Yes i know the source is Wiki but the essence/sentiment is correct.

It is a cross between the UK and EU to help bring stability and to share in the wealth, etc.

There is a certain irony that people complain that we (the west and indeed China) sell military hardware and the training to use said hardware and how to fight to win, to the Arab nations yet when it come down to it people object or cannot comprehend how the Arabs can then use their big boys toys effectively. Billions upon billions of pounds/dollars/euros/yen have been spent of equipping these countries (at their insistence) to fight and defend themselves and only a complete idiot would think them unable to do something in Libya - even with using expertise (planning on how to...) from the UN.

We do not have to or indeed should not be heading up what is happening in Libya at best we should be supporting the ALN and at their request!

Luan Pra bang

The arab league contains plenty of dictatorships having their own problems as well as nations like Palestine and Jordan who have to constantly deal with Israeli interfearance, agression and possible invasion, If anyone thinks those nations are in any position to help the Libyan revolution then you must be mental.

The Zohan

LoL 'mental' err, no, just do not have my head up my own botty thanks - Yes, easy to see your agenda and obvious bias

So none of these countries (below) have the means then??? really, none of them at all??? there is military cooperation between the Arab League of Nations like there is within UN, it does not need to be just 1 or indeed 5 nations it can be as many (or as few) as required to put together to right military and technical strategy and implement it.

Algeria
Bahrain
Comoros
Djibouti
Egypt
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Palestine
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen

I wonder if anyone actually bothered to ask them...

Luan Pra bang

I also have to say that our troops are in planes, not on the ground in harms way, this is totally different to Iraq and this intervention will be alot more cost effective for the UK than letting gadafffi carry on.
Russia today it is a very strange channel, I actually like it, it has some good programs and has won awards for its content but it does love a conspicarcy theory about the west. As a channel it can present a reasonable point of view right up untill serious Russian politics comes into play and then the Kremlin funding shows it face. The war in Ossetia made some RT jounalists resign as they were ordered to ignore the ethnic cleansing that took place.

The Zohan

Try and keep it on topic

Currently This is about how we are perceived via our actions and how they are interpreted by Arab Nations/Muslims around the world. There is a very fine line between helping and being seen as that aggressor/taking over/invading and pictures of dead Libyans (collateral damage to use a US euphemism) especially children and women can and does enrage people and the tide of opinion in the Arab world is easily and can be frequently changed.

at the moment it is not about our dead troops it is about dead Libyans and how the Libyan and anti western propaganda machines can use them to their advantage.

JTaylor

Ok, well let's have a bit of fun: You've got a squad of 22, pick out your first XI. They need to act together as an effective, unified team, and they would needed to have been match fit and ready to play within 24 hours. Once you've made your selection, designate a coach and a physio to give your inexperienced, fragile and hastily cobbled together team the best possible chance of winning. Beware of the injury list, and remember you've imposed an imbargo on transfers. If victorious, you need to decide who gets to keep the matchball and the trophy. Only the eleven on the pitch get a winners medal but, you need to maintain some harmony within the squad otherwise the team will fall apart (boots thrown, that sort of thing) and a number of players may join other teams. They'll be singled out in future derbies and may retaliate with the occasional two footed tackle. You may have two substitutes in case one of the players gets injured, you wouldn't want to go down to ten men. Godspeed.

Luan Pra bang

Going through the list the only two nations in a position to do anything are Oman and kuwait Oman with their 180 aircraft and kuwait with their 40 or so fighter planes.

Luan Pra bang

Wow 4 planes for quatar

The Zohan

Yes, very clever and a shame you felt the need to trivialise since you started a new thread due to the other bing closed...

To use your rather lame analogy The team may not be the best but it has trained together and they have set pieces/plays and in addition good equipment to back up the plays along with well trained managed and coaching staff who have been working with the top clubs. Also the players have trained and been coached by some of the best in the business (SAS/RAF) so have skills albeit not at the same premiership level but able to kick a ball around and score the odd goal, especially when playing teams of similar standards and fitness.
Perhaps that is enough of that dreadful footie analogy for now but hopefully i explained it in such a way as you will understand it.

It would be better for the Arab world to deal with this instead of the West - it is not a difficult concept

The Zohan

You may need to grow up little - Saudi has some 68+ Military aircraft including Typhoons and F15/16's. As i tried to explain they work in cooperation with each other, it really is not that hard to follow but as i said you do have to remove head from a$$ first

http://www.scramble.nl/mil/4/saudiarabia/orbat.htm

The Zohan

<sighs> i see you chose to ignore Saudi and the UAE to name but TWO!

Ok, If you add the two figs together you get 220 planes, not all combat but even 25% would be 55 fighter aircraft located close to Libya, closer than the UK! These planes supplied by the west and the pilots/navigators going to the same flight schools/training as their western counterparts and planes equipped with the same/similar weaponry.

JTaylor

Keep it sweet, please.