Problems with Subaru oil filters.
25 March 2011, 02:25 PM
#274
...& then we would have been none the wiser/unwiser
25 March 2011, 05:03 PM
#275
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WEll, i went along to my local Dealers today and amongst other things had a chat about these filter, his words were 'Why would subaru shoot themselves in the foot by using sub standard filters as it would just lead to a massive legal case which they would then lose' & was a point i made earlier in the thread.
As i suspected as well if the filters then failed it would be down to Subaru to fix the vehicle FOC & also have a chat with the main Scooby technician who fits hundreds of these filters in a year, he just said 'whoever is saying these filters are rubbish knows jack sh*t & probably knackered it by incorrectly fitting it' He's to the point but the above makes a lot of sense as also these filters brand and all are used by Mazda & another jap car manufacturer as well.
As i suspected as well if the filters then failed it would be down to Subaru to fix the vehicle FOC & also have a chat with the main Scooby technician who fits hundreds of these filters in a year, he just said 'whoever is saying these filters are rubbish knows jack sh*t & probably knackered it by incorrectly fitting it' He's to the point but the above makes a lot of sense as also these filters brand and all are used by Mazda & another jap car manufacturer as well.
you'll set Stu off again .............
25 March 2011, 06:06 PM
#278
WEll, i went along to my local Dealers today and amongst other things had a chat about these filter, his words were 'Why would subaru shoot themselves in the foot by using sub standard filters as it would just lead to a massive legal case which they would then lose' & was a point i made earlier in the thread.
As i suspected as well if the filters then failed it would be down to Subaru to fix the vehicle FOC & also have a chat with the main Scooby technician who fits hundreds of these filters in a year, he just said 'whoever is saying these filters are rubbish knows jack sh*t & probably knackered it by incorrectly fitting it' He's to the point but the above makes a lot of sense as also these filters brand and all are used by Mazda & another jap car manufacturer as well.
As i suspected as well if the filters then failed it would be down to Subaru to fix the vehicle FOC & also have a chat with the main Scooby technician who fits hundreds of these filters in a year, he just said 'whoever is saying these filters are rubbish knows jack sh*t & probably knackered it by incorrectly fitting it' He's to the point but the above makes a lot of sense as also these filters brand and all are used by Mazda & another jap car manufacturer as well.
25 March 2011, 07:52 PM
#279
25 March 2011, 07:57 PM
#280
At the end of the day there is enough info here (and the links to us forums) to make your own mind up.
Me, I'll be using the mazda (roki) filter as it's the same quality as the previous impreza filter, mazda dealer is 5 mins down the road from me AND it's cheaper then the new blue subaru filter!
I've always had a dislike for fram filters in general, ever since servicing cars and vans from the age of 17.
There is no doubting in my mind the quality of the roki filter is superior, if the choice is there for me I'll take the roki filter especially as it's cheaper and on my doorstep. Some people are happy to use the new blue filter, that's up to them.
I guess it's just the same way that a lot of people would use castrol 10w/40 semi synthetic, subaru used to put that in the classics. It's not personally something I'd use but I just try and buy the best I can get based on research and cost.
Me, I'll be using the mazda (roki) filter as it's the same quality as the previous impreza filter, mazda dealer is 5 mins down the road from me AND it's cheaper then the new blue subaru filter!
I've always had a dislike for fram filters in general, ever since servicing cars and vans from the age of 17.
There is no doubting in my mind the quality of the roki filter is superior, if the choice is there for me I'll take the roki filter especially as it's cheaper and on my doorstep. Some people are happy to use the new blue filter, that's up to them.
I guess it's just the same way that a lot of people would use castrol 10w/40 semi synthetic, subaru used to put that in the classics. It's not personally something I'd use but I just try and buy the best I can get based on research and cost.
26 March 2011, 12:16 AM
#282
At the end of the day there is enough info here (and the links to us forums) to make your own mind up.
Me, I'll be using the mazda (roki) filter as it's the same quality as the previous impreza filter, mazda dealer is 5 mins down the road from me AND it's cheaper then the new blue subaru filter!
I've always had a dislike for fram filters in general, ever since servicing cars and vans from the age of 17.
There is no doubting in my mind the quality of the roki filter is superior, if the choice is there for me I'll take the roki filter especially as it's cheaper and on my doorstep. Some people are happy to use the new blue filter, that's up to them.
I guess it's just the same way that a lot of people would use castrol 10w/40 semi synthetic, subaru used to put that in the classics. It's not personally something I'd use but I just try and buy the best I can get based on research and cost.
Me, I'll be using the mazda (roki) filter as it's the same quality as the previous impreza filter, mazda dealer is 5 mins down the road from me AND it's cheaper then the new blue subaru filter!
I've always had a dislike for fram filters in general, ever since servicing cars and vans from the age of 17.
There is no doubting in my mind the quality of the roki filter is superior, if the choice is there for me I'll take the roki filter especially as it's cheaper and on my doorstep. Some people are happy to use the new blue filter, that's up to them.
I guess it's just the same way that a lot of people would use castrol 10w/40 semi synthetic, subaru used to put that in the classics. It's not personally something I'd use but I just try and buy the best I can get based on research and cost.
26 March 2011, 01:43 AM
#284
Yes, it was the point I was making earlier in the thread.
Obviously the bypass is related to pressure differential, most people on here use a thicker oil than subaru spec and the cold bypass and high rpm bypass is going to be greater on these oils imo. Pair that with a low bypass sprung filter such as the k&n and it makes you wonder how much less filtration will be going on over 6 months of cold starts? Enough to be causing more wear than the OE filter?
Subaru spec'd a filter with a high pressure bypass spring to keep up with the pump flow and maintain filtration when a lower sprung filter would be partially bypassing the filter media.
Obviously the bypass is related to pressure differential, most people on here use a thicker oil than subaru spec and the cold bypass and high rpm bypass is going to be greater on these oils imo. Pair that with a low bypass sprung filter such as the k&n and it makes you wonder how much less filtration will be going on over 6 months of cold starts? Enough to be causing more wear than the OE filter?
Subaru spec'd a filter with a high pressure bypass spring to keep up with the pump flow and maintain filtration when a lower sprung filter would be partially bypassing the filter media.
One of the reasons the filter valve release pressure is higher on these small Subaru filters is simply down to the fact that the smaller you go, the less filtration medium you have, so the filter clogs up faster, increasing the pressure drop change from new to old faster, which means to get the service life out of the filter in a worst case scenario, you need to run a higher blow off pressure.
Now think about that for a minute.
The canadian filter is very small, and with a service life of 10K miles plus it's going to need to stand a higher pressure differential to obtain that service life.
The reality of the situation is if you have a healthy filter, you should only see a 2psi pressure drop across the filter, going to a higher viscosity oil such as a 10W or 15W is not significant in raising that differential pressure.
The total pressure in the system is not controlled by the filter at all, the peak pressure is controlled by the oil pump pressure relief valve, once peak pressure is hit at around 2500rpm, the relief valve is bypassing oil so the entire system, including the filter doesnt see a pressure high enough to damage it and blow all the seals out.
Again, if you get to the point where you have such a clogged filter that the oil pump pressure releif valve cant bypass enough oil to limit pressure, you've gone way beyond what you should expect out of a regularly serviced engine.
If you want to give maximum protection and the smallest pressure drop in the system, going smaller on filter size is the wrong way to go.
Subaru and car manufacturers in general have been going smaller with filtration capacity for many years now, because as the engineering tolerences have improved and engine emisions have improved, you dont have as much crap to filter out of the oil, so it saves money to take advantage of those improvements by reducing your materials usage costs.
Now knowing all this, do you really think it's a smart move to be putting a smaller filter on an older spec engine that was speced with a larger filtration capacity, which is now out of warranty and which is capable of producing more crap to filter than the current engines, even if it's running perfectly healthily.
With regards to the comment made earlier about people using a 10W or 15W oil, ignore that, the filter can flow that viscosity no problem. If you look in the Subaru workshop manuals it actually states you can and should use up to a 20W oil, if your local conditions or use requires that.
Last edited by johnfelstead; 26 March 2011 at 01:47 AM.
26 March 2011, 01:57 AM
#285
How do you know it meets the spec and what spec to ask etc etc,when i ask my local motor factors anything like this usually they just go
I fit my Blue OEM filter tomorrow,only one i could get around here,as i said a few posts back,i will just insure i change the oil earlier next time round to not overuse this tiny blue filter etc
26 March 2011, 02:50 AM
#286
All good then.
How do you know it meets the spec and what spec to ask etc etc,when i ask my local motor factors anything like this usually they just go
I fit my Blue OEM filter tomorrow,only one i could get around here,as i said a few posts back,i will just insure i change the oil earlier next time round to not overuse this tiny blue filter etc
How do you know it meets the spec and what spec to ask etc etc,when i ask my local motor factors anything like this usually they just go
I fit my Blue OEM filter tomorrow,only one i could get around here,as i said a few posts back,i will just insure i change the oil earlier next time round to not overuse this tiny blue filter etc
One other reason i went for blueprint is they seem to do them in 2 sizes heres a couple adds.http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
http://www.scoobyprojects.co.uk/shop...roducts_id=246
Last edited by bugeyejohn; 26 March 2011 at 10:37 AM.
26 March 2011, 04:48 AM
#287
The guy selling in the ebay add also sells the smaller filter for specific models ie classic or newage The larger one in the add above is listed as model/series legacy but fitment for all imprezas so im guessing the legacy filter is the same but slightly bigger.Either way ive ordered both just to see the difference so should get the other today.Quite sad really 
The larger one in the add above is listed as model/series legacy but fitment for all imprezas so im guessing the legacy filter is the same but slightly bigger.Either way ive ordered both just to see the difference so should get the other today.Quite sad really
Last edited by bugeyejohn; 26 March 2011 at 12:04 PM.
26 March 2011, 12:18 PM
#288
The oil filter bypass valve is there to take care of a blocked filter situation. If you are getting to the point where you have these valves opening, you have one seriously blocked filter.
One of the reasons the filter valve release pressure is higher on these small Subaru filters is simply down to the fact that the smaller you go, the less filtration medium you have, so the filter clogs up faster, increasing the pressure drop change from new to old faster, which means to get the service life out of the filter in a worst case scenario, you need to run a higher blow off pressure.
Now think about that for a minute.
The canadian filter is very small, and with a service life of 10K miles plus it's going to need to stand a higher pressure differential to obtain that service life.
The reality of the situation is if you have a healthy filter, you should only see a 2psi pressure drop across the filter, going to a higher viscosity oil such as a 10W or 15W is not significant in raising that differential pressure.
The total pressure in the system is not controlled by the filter at all, the peak pressure is controlled by the oil pump pressure relief valve, once peak pressure is hit at around 2500rpm, the relief valve is bypassing oil so the entire system, including the filter doesnt see a pressure high enough to damage it and blow all the seals out.
Again, if you get to the point where you have such a clogged filter that the oil pump pressure releif valve cant bypass enough oil to limit pressure, you've gone way beyond what you should expect out of a regularly serviced engine.
If you want to give maximum protection and the smallest pressure drop in the system, going smaller on filter size is the wrong way to go.
Subaru and car manufacturers in general have been going smaller with filtration capacity for many years now, because as the engineering tolerences have improved and engine emisions have improved, you dont have as much crap to filter out of the oil, so it saves money to take advantage of those improvements by reducing your materials usage costs.
Now knowing all this, do you really think it's a smart move to be putting a smaller filter on an older spec engine that was speced with a larger filtration capacity, which is now out of warranty and which is capable of producing more crap to filter than the current engines, even if it's running perfectly healthily.
With regards to the comment made earlier about people using a 10W or 15W oil, ignore that, the filter can flow that viscosity no problem. If you look in the Subaru workshop manuals it actually states you can and should use up to a 20W oil, if your local conditions or use requires that.
One of the reasons the filter valve release pressure is higher on these small Subaru filters is simply down to the fact that the smaller you go, the less filtration medium you have, so the filter clogs up faster, increasing the pressure drop change from new to old faster, which means to get the service life out of the filter in a worst case scenario, you need to run a higher blow off pressure.
Now think about that for a minute.
The canadian filter is very small, and with a service life of 10K miles plus it's going to need to stand a higher pressure differential to obtain that service life.
The reality of the situation is if you have a healthy filter, you should only see a 2psi pressure drop across the filter, going to a higher viscosity oil such as a 10W or 15W is not significant in raising that differential pressure.
The total pressure in the system is not controlled by the filter at all, the peak pressure is controlled by the oil pump pressure relief valve, once peak pressure is hit at around 2500rpm, the relief valve is bypassing oil so the entire system, including the filter doesnt see a pressure high enough to damage it and blow all the seals out.
Again, if you get to the point where you have such a clogged filter that the oil pump pressure releif valve cant bypass enough oil to limit pressure, you've gone way beyond what you should expect out of a regularly serviced engine.
If you want to give maximum protection and the smallest pressure drop in the system, going smaller on filter size is the wrong way to go.
Subaru and car manufacturers in general have been going smaller with filtration capacity for many years now, because as the engineering tolerences have improved and engine emisions have improved, you dont have as much crap to filter out of the oil, so it saves money to take advantage of those improvements by reducing your materials usage costs.
Now knowing all this, do you really think it's a smart move to be putting a smaller filter on an older spec engine that was speced with a larger filtration capacity, which is now out of warranty and which is capable of producing more crap to filter than the current engines, even if it's running perfectly healthily.
With regards to the comment made earlier about people using a 10W or 15W oil, ignore that, the filter can flow that viscosity no problem. If you look in the Subaru workshop manuals it actually states you can and should use up to a 20W oil, if your local conditions or use requires that.
I was just making the point that subaru spec the filter bypass differential at 23 psi because the pump is high flow. There's many cars with an oil filter this size, they don't need a high bypass pressure so it can't be solely down to filter size imo.
I know that mazda went from 10-13psi (pre 09) bypass to 23 psi (post 09) bypass in their rx8 and all they did was fit a higher pressure oil pump.
do you think all the info here is worthless? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1&nt=14&page=1
It makes sense to me that the oil pressure the subaru pump flows requires a higher bypass, especially on cold starts. I'm sure if the subaru engineers were seeing a 2psi differential on the filters on cold starts they wouldn't have thought a 23psi bypass pressure was needed.
29 March 2011, 04:04 PM
#289
If some of you guys place any store in the video at the beginning of this thread 10 pages ago, I think you need to get out more often. It is utter bollocks.
3 or 4 years ago I did an oil change on my STi 6 Wagon with SPA oil pressure and temperature and logging facility. The O/E Subaru filter was not available (large at that time) so I used a Fram. Immediately I noticed oil pressure was around 3-4 psi less than anticipated. A couple of days later I changed to the Subaru item and oil pressure was exactly as expected. I am not 100% sure of the reasons for this but I was happy to be back with a known quantity. This does not mean the Fram was not a good filter.
The purported technical information posted for different filters is really of little use. What is of main interest is the filter mesh size and the microns down to which the filter can remove debris. Obviously the smaller microns it can filter down to the better but there are probably trade offs. Filtering to very small microns may mean the filter has to have a larger filter gause area to enable it to flow the volume but run a very fine mesh.
FWIW we run only Blue Print filters from Japan and as a result of this thread I have now requested a Tech Data sheet to see what info is published.
There is an incentive to run a smallish filter simply because of clearance issues with larger filters and some aftermarket header sets. Over many years we have not experienced a single oil filter failure and I suspect some issues are caused by over torquing the oil filter.
For many years, at least 8 I have run with a magnet on my sump plug, gearbox drain plug and diff drain plug when this has been steel. I have never ever picked up any residue on the engine sump plug. This may be because there was nothing there to be magnetically attracted or it may be that the sump itself has a magnetic charge so actually finding something was very unlikely. I suspect there was nothing there to atract magnetically. However both the gearbox and sump plugs with magnets attached pick up fine metal particles all the time and previously I have known when a diff was coming to the end of its life by the amount of debris collected. Then the diff started to become quite noisey before it was either rebuilt or replaced. The same is true for gearboxes but personally I have only had one catastrophic gearbox failure. However fine steel debris is visible at every oil change and this is true on newish low miles cars.
If anyone can find published data on engine oil filters and claimed microns they filter down to that would be helpful.
3 or 4 years ago I did an oil change on my STi 6 Wagon with SPA oil pressure and temperature and logging facility. The O/E Subaru filter was not available (large at that time) so I used a Fram. Immediately I noticed oil pressure was around 3-4 psi less than anticipated. A couple of days later I changed to the Subaru item and oil pressure was exactly as expected. I am not 100% sure of the reasons for this but I was happy to be back with a known quantity. This does not mean the Fram was not a good filter.
The purported technical information posted for different filters is really of little use. What is of main interest is the filter mesh size and the microns down to which the filter can remove debris. Obviously the smaller microns it can filter down to the better but there are probably trade offs. Filtering to very small microns may mean the filter has to have a larger filter gause area to enable it to flow the volume but run a very fine mesh.
FWIW we run only Blue Print filters from Japan and as a result of this thread I have now requested a Tech Data sheet to see what info is published.
There is an incentive to run a smallish filter simply because of clearance issues with larger filters and some aftermarket header sets. Over many years we have not experienced a single oil filter failure and I suspect some issues are caused by over torquing the oil filter.
For many years, at least 8 I have run with a magnet on my sump plug, gearbox drain plug and diff drain plug when this has been steel. I have never ever picked up any residue on the engine sump plug. This may be because there was nothing there to be magnetically attracted or it may be that the sump itself has a magnetic charge so actually finding something was very unlikely. I suspect there was nothing there to atract magnetically. However both the gearbox and sump plugs with magnets attached pick up fine metal particles all the time and previously I have known when a diff was coming to the end of its life by the amount of debris collected. Then the diff started to become quite noisey before it was either rebuilt or replaced. The same is true for gearboxes but personally I have only had one catastrophic gearbox failure. However fine steel debris is visible at every oil change and this is true on newish low miles cars.
If anyone can find published data on engine oil filters and claimed microns they filter down to that would be helpful.
Last edited by harvey; 29 March 2011 at 04:06 PM.
29 March 2011, 10:47 PM
#290
Greetings
Having been away from frequent Subaru (and other marques) maintenance for some time, have to admit that questioned the change in filter when recently bought two, to be honest the parts lad couldn't offer any explanation, just that the part no had superceded.
First appearences, and having only just viewed the thread tonight, yes the new filters appear of a lesser quality, I guess only time will prove this point or highlight major problems - worldwide.
Have never had a filter 'fail' (subaru or otherwise) but have seen many of the paper elements collapse, particularly when longer service intervals used (and exceded!) and especially on diesels, but never break up etc.
With regards to o ring failures - seen it many times both with spin on filters and when the o rings are fitted to a filter housing which is only subject to compression, had a run of diesel fuel filters leak following change some time ago, which was purely down to 'a bad batch' of o rings.
Not going into the pro's and con's of any filter, genuine or otherwise (many opinions to choose from already herein), nor would I even suggest poor workmanship etc, wasn't there so can't comment, know that in JF's case it wouldn't have been an issue fortunately John picked up on a problem before damage occured.
Personally I'll be using the filters I've bought, but tend to change oil every 3000 miles anyway, and monitor closely from all aspects.
One thing that nobody has picked up though (or at least that I've seen), why would you go through the exercise shown in the original post, whilst sat in a very clean car, wearing clean clothes, and then moan like crazy about possibly getting oil everywhere????
Glad to see the later post cutting open old type filter was done in better circumstances
Cheers
Having been away from frequent Subaru (and other marques) maintenance for some time, have to admit that questioned the change in filter when recently bought two, to be honest the parts lad couldn't offer any explanation, just that the part no had superceded.
First appearences, and having only just viewed the thread tonight, yes the new filters appear of a lesser quality, I guess only time will prove this point or highlight major problems - worldwide.
Have never had a filter 'fail' (subaru or otherwise) but have seen many of the paper elements collapse, particularly when longer service intervals used (and exceded!) and especially on diesels, but never break up etc.
With regards to o ring failures - seen it many times both with spin on filters and when the o rings are fitted to a filter housing which is only subject to compression, had a run of diesel fuel filters leak following change some time ago, which was purely down to 'a bad batch' of o rings.
Not going into the pro's and con's of any filter, genuine or otherwise (many opinions to choose from already herein), nor would I even suggest poor workmanship etc, wasn't there so can't comment, know that in JF's case it wouldn't have been an issue fortunately John picked up on a problem before damage occured.
Personally I'll be using the filters I've bought, but tend to change oil every 3000 miles anyway, and monitor closely from all aspects.
One thing that nobody has picked up though (or at least that I've seen), why would you go through the exercise shown in the original post, whilst sat in a very clean car, wearing clean clothes, and then moan like crazy about possibly getting oil everywhere????
Glad to see the later post cutting open old type filter was done in better circumstances
Cheers
06 April 2011, 08:25 PM
#291
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06 April 2011, 08:39 PM
#292
LOL,i bet you been trawling the net for a link like that
yes they work,BUT,as said,if they do collect stuff,well,summut aint right
06 April 2011, 08:42 PM
#294
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As explained much earlier, if there is no metal in your oil, it is never going to wear out. Simple as that, but lets not go there again. LOL
**Doh - Beaten by Einstein **
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 06 April 2011 at 08:43 PM.
07 April 2011, 08:09 AM
#295
Now I'm so glad a did as at the moment as you maybe aware I am running in a new engine and today did the 500 mile change(already did one change at 250 miles), well here is the proof that they work.....
I do pick up metal debris in both the gearbox and diff. So far over many years and several cars, nothing on the engine sump plug. I very much doubt there is anything to pick up and the kindest conclusion I can reach is that becuase the sump will also be magnetised any small amount of debris collected may be spread so widely over the sump and not just the magnetic plug that it is virtually undetectable.
To improve our knowledge and move this debate on, if someone can come up with reliable information on the microns that various oil filters are intended to filter down to then we would know a lot more than we do now. I suspect manufacturers do not want to release this information.
07 April 2011, 11:40 AM
#296
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Me too, undoubtably. In usual running you would hope only to see a smear of what appears to be black sediment across the magnet tip. A bit like very fine grinding paste, which is exactly what it is to all intents and purposes. I will take a picture of what comes out of my M5 next time its on a ramp.
07 April 2011, 11:57 AM
#297
I was a bit staggered by that shot, too.
When you consider that a magnet will hold onto ferrous debris only, it makes you wonder what was giving up that amount of swarf? I can only think of bore/rings being ferrous to ferrous? Cams/lifters possibly, but that may well stay in the head.
JohnD
When you consider that a magnet will hold onto ferrous debris only, it makes you wonder what was giving up that amount of swarf? I can only think of bore/rings being ferrous to ferrous? Cams/lifters possibly, but that may well stay in the head.
JohnD
07 April 2011, 12:04 PM
#298
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I was a bit staggered by that shot, too.
When you consider that a magnet will hold onto ferrous debris only, it makes you wonder what was giving up that amount of swarf? I can only think of bore/rings being ferrous to ferrous? Cams/lifters possibly, but that may well stay in the head.
JohnD
When you consider that a magnet will hold onto ferrous debris only, it makes you wonder what was giving up that amount of swarf? I can only think of bore/rings being ferrous to ferrous? Cams/lifters possibly, but that may well stay in the head.
JohnD
