letdown

"""If the SIDC want to let Subaru drivers have first crack at the wip fine. Do as Mike suggested give priority to these owner drivers and then open it up to other members three weeks or so before the event."""

I said something quite similar to this earlier and apparently 'its not the point'!!

Im having a real problem trying to understand what all the fuss is about? Or is it that the original statement isnt 'black and white'! phewwwww! time for the toys to be put back in the pram me thinks!!!

MTR

Gary Foster,
No I haven't had a 'play' with my Impreza around a circuit.

But about 22 years ago I held a RAC competition licenses (Rally and Race) for 3 years, competing in road rallies, BTRDA autotests, production car trials, Autocross (grasstrack), and even drag racing.

All of these events were competitions not playing for fun.
(except the drag racing on an airfield, on a festival of transport day, but that was timed, and made it into the pages of Custom Car)

So I may not have had your wealth of experience of circuit DRIVING, not racing, but I am no stranger to very close (usually physical contact, although not condoned) RACING on loose surface, where it is quite common to find your OPPONENT, NOT FRIEND, trying to 'accidently' flip or spin you.
And they often do.

And no, I don't mind mixing it with much faster cars either, in fact I love it.

And I have never been intimidated in my car or motorbikes in my life, on road or track.

I have however several scars, missing body parts and some deformaties caused by crashing my motorbikes at speed.
But when I rolled my Escort I didn't get hurt, full cage and all that!!

But SOME PEOPLE are not happy about the performance levels of certain cars attending the SIDC days. which are not supposed to be races, or competing, but just driving at speed on a circuit.

And as I stated, it was only my opinion.

John,
Sorry for hijacking your thread.

Cheers MTR

SDB

Look...

This is getting a little blown up...

It seems clear that the only "crime" SIDC has commited is changing the rules half way through peoples membership term. I have an enormous amount of respect for the people I know within he SIDC commitee and know that the decision they are taking would only be taken because they strongly believe it to be in the best interests of the club...

But...

I personally think the decision should have been made before the start of this club year, or set to be in force from the start of the next club year, or even to be applied to anyone who joins from now on. It *does* seem a tad off to change what people are going to receive after they have paid for it.

but...

On the other side, if we all step back from it, the actual decision is a very sound one. It might not appeal to all tastes, but it is based on good motives.

If I have missed the point, I humbly apologise, but I see the only thing that needs to be put to the SIDC is whether this decision should rightly affect people after they have already paid? And maybe that should also be done directly rather than continuing to drag it on here?

I will leave this thread open as it is clearly a matter of great importance to many people here.

All the best

Simon

PS. I should point out (in case there are some people that are not clear on this)... ScoobyNet has no ties or involvement with SIDC, so I have no benefit in saying the above.

[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 20 March 2001).]

John Stevenson

This thread makes for very interesting reading, I'm not a member of the SIDC as I only bought a one a month ago,. Though as a result of attending Knockhill on Saturday the entry form and cheque are in an envelope in my inside coat pocket to be posted as I leave work later this evening.
I am however a member of quite a few RACMSA affiliated clubs and would be more than a little upset if any of them attempted to impose retrospective changes in their rules which discriminate against a current member (and a valued one from what I read on this thread). Do the articles of this club allow such discrimination based on the longevity of someones membership. If so they are very badly written, what you propose is discrimination based on longevity of membership and is no less serious than racism or sectarianism. I suspect you will find what you are proposing is probably illegal unless you’re articles include the rights of the committee to be discriminatory. I would also suspect that these articles (if they even exist) can not be altered without an AGM or EGM of the membership
If John joined understanding the conditions and benefits associated with membership then I cannot really see that the committee can justify removing these rights from him. Obviously the issue is contentious but surely to halt this threat, as you see it, it must be done at the date of the publication of this change and not retrospectively thus altering current members rights. This must surely be an issue for your membership, of which John is one.
On the grounds of safety, as Taz mentioned higher in the thread, if someone turns up to track day in a 1.6 Impreza how exactly are you going to handle the disparity in power between this and a tuned 22b or P1.
The answer to the performance disparity could be addressed in the track session, banding the cars by their performance, letting standard or near standard cars out together with higher performance cars on track in a different session.
On reading this thread initially I hesitated as to whether I should actually join SIDC, having thought about it more I think it would be better to join as burying ones head in the sand will not solve these problem and I look forward to supporting John at your next AGM, if he does not leave your club in disgust. The cheque is in the post guys.
---john---

DocJock

Quote

I own a Subaru, most of my mates own Subaru's, i drive one every day. I have put an awefull lot of effort into educating both Subaru and non-Subaru drivers on getting the most out of their cars both on the road and track. I have nothing to gain from this effort except the pleasure of knowing i have made a contribution to the society i live in. I like the people who attend SIDC track days, the events are always well run, thats why i want to attend these days


Well I am one of these people who has benefitted from John's knowledge.
My first trackday in my Scoob this bloke I had never clapped eyes on before jumps in my car and within 20 mins had improved my track driving 100%. Thanks again John!

(He also set fire to my brakes though)

Having shared a track with John,MikeR and Matt(typeR) several times I honestly feel they are more at risk from us than the other way round

I'm not criticising the commitee as they put in a hell of a lot of time for little return or thanks, but it will be a shame to see Imprezas only if trackdays are fully subscribed.

JF, cya at the nonSIDC days m8.

DJ

Subie Gal

wow... um...

i cant say a whole lot as i only went to 1 or 2 of your lapping days.. but i can say..

i had a fantastic time in JF's Westie... what a car and u know.. hehehehe JF is an "ok" driver

at your Knockhill fundraiser last year i rode in an Elise, drove a 22B and had an EVO nearly crush me, saw many cars i'd never laid eyes on before...

it'd be a shame in my opinion, to see the variety disappear, but i suppose, in theory, i understand what you are doing...

best wishes to all.
jamie

Gary Foster

(Sorry about this, I would have emailed MTR Offline, but he has no email address)

MTR

No No No !! You're taking what I said out of context and as an insult !. The ONLY point I was trying to make (and admittedly very badly) was to your comment

"Given that the route cause of at least some peoples concerns is the disparity between the performance levels of cars on the track"

but who are these people who have concerns, given that it's not you, me or anyone else who has posted here ? If we all posted comments in this vein (even though we weren't bothered ourselves) it would make it look like a massive problem, even though it (judging by this thread) affects a tiny percentage of SIDC members.

Hope thats clearer ?

(Ps I am a relative track newbie, if my tone sounded lecturing then that was entirely not what I meant)

Gary

Ps John F, Mike R etc etc are all lovely please don't kick them out

KF

Cat amongst pidgeons time:
In true grip it states:
"It is the SIDC's <B>plan</B> to give track day priority to all Impreza driving members."

This means that it is not yet cast in stone. If a change is to be made to the SIDC rules, the change is subject to article 30 of said rule book.

Regardless, I urge people to step back and think whether the situation painted by John is actually the intended (and inevitable) result of the action planned by the comittee, and whether we should afford them some lattitude to exert their discression in running track days.

With the greatest of respect for all parties, we don't need martyrdom or a show of solidarity. This is a club run by representitives for the members. We voted for them. Tell them what <B>you</B> want from the club. If you value John's input in <B>SIDC</B> track days (of which he has been to 2), tell them that not telling John immediately whether he can go or not is not acceptable.
KF.

SDB

David
"If John had been an SIDC member for 2 yrs, I'm sure the cut off date at which Impreza owning members wishing to take other cars at track days would be moved to 3 yrs."

This is not the case. The ruling was to help reduce the number of NEW people to the scene that are only there due to availability of track days, NOT John specifically. This is something everyone is now in agreement on.

I too felt that this was the case and mentioned this to Pete who agreed that the wording was unfortunate (but we can't all send everything we write to spin doctors and psycho-analysts to see if it will unintentionally offend 1 person out of the 2000 it addresses).

Everything has now already been said. There is no point in dragging it all back up again. I don't want to lock this thread as it would be disrespectful and this is clearly a matter of great importance to many people, but I do think we should reflect on the fact that the matter is now resolved as far as this discussion is concerned.

The next step is for the SIDC to deal with John's questions at the AGM.

Best regards

Simon

Neil Smalley

Well said simon.

In general the discussion has been handled(by all sides) with great maturity. It's a credit to you all that this has been worked out in the proper manner and not degenerated into a childish flamewar

Kudos

Stef

Right, this will be my last post on the subject, and hopefully it can then be put to rest.
John has NEVER attended an SIDC event at Donington in his Westie, so everyone who's saying "I'll miss you" is getting confused with Donno's Trackzone days where John and anyone else can still mix it on track with whatever else decides to turn up.
The only SIDC event currently booked between now and the agm, when members can decide for themselves, is Croft, and there is currently no reserve list. This action was taken in advance to prevent a major influx of new non-Scooby members to the club purely to do track days. I don't see it having ANY effect on current members or currently booked events. Therefore any further discussion is pointless.
I love driving on track with other cars as much if not more than anyone else, but that's why I attend Trackzone days.
And talk about this killing off the SIDC and/or it's track events is ridiculous.
God bless you all, and all who sit with you.

Stef.

PS After having a chat with John, I would like to clarify that any non-Scoob members who were put onto a reserve list, should one ever be needed for any event, would be given plenty of notice as to whether or not they were actually able to attend ie weeks, not days.




[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 21 March 2001).]

TKH

I joined the SIDC to mix with scooby enthusiasts and so far its been great meeting and chatting with you all and of course making the most of the clubs well organised track days and i think it's only right to give the car that the club is named after priority for these days .In the event of a shortfall of impreza's then ye open it up.

I also own an XKR and would not consider it fair to the club or it's members to join them on track with it not least because you'd all run rings around it but in the main its just not what single make clubs are about.

Needless to say though i would like to take it on track just to see how fast i could do a set of tyres in but should i wish to do this i would go on an all makes track day where everyone was aware of the assortment of cars around them and made allowances for that fact.


Regards

Tim

SDB

OK...

I've just been speaking to Pete Croney, and believe me, this was not an easy decision to make...

but the main catalyst for the decision was caused by a turn of events that I hadn't really grasped until now. So I thought I'd put up a post in-case there were others in the same boat.

The problem has started when BHL put a stop to the commercial track days and a whole heap of people with all sorts of cars suddenly had all their dates concelled. What should they do??? Well a good idea would be to join the SIDC?

Pete and I have spoken at length and everything in my last post still stands. I know that SIDC are sending John a full refund regardless of the fact that he has enjoyed 2 SIDC track days this year (the reason for joining).

So it looks like the matter is resolved.

John's feelings on the matter were clearly warranted, and the SIDC's decision was also warranted. Unfortunately, the two conflicted.

I truly believe this is now resolved.

All the best

Simon

johnfelstead

Last post from me on this one.

I do not agree with the way the club has handled this issue, I think that is pretty plain to see.

Making changes to people’s benefits retrospectively was both unnesacery and unjustifiable IMHO, it probably only affected 3 people directly, myself being one of them.

I accept the article was not aimed at me personally now, even if that wasn’t the intent, that’s the way it looked to a large number of people who read it. That was one of the reasons I felt it nesacery to reply in the only way I can at present, via this BBS.

I will not be resigning my membership of the club; I will be attending the AGM and will put my grievances to the committee directly on the way this has been handled. I said at the start of my post I have the utmost respect for the committee members and that still stands. I accept they have a very difficult job to do, I appreciate the work they put into running the club.

I have been told that until this matter is resolved properly at the AGM, myself and the other affected drivers will be given plenty of notice in advance of any issues with regards to being allowed on track. Although that is not ideal as I am still having my benefits changed after joining the club I am not the sort of person who sticks there head in the sand or goes sulking in the corner until I get exactly what I want. I will be fighting this change to my terms at the AGM however, using the correct forum open to committee and club members.

I have put my name down for Croft and will know a few weeks in advance if I can run on track or not. I hope I can as the SIDC events are always great events to attend, if that were not the case I would not have been motivated so much to react to the changes being made.

I would have been at the last Donington event but I had a rather exciting event to attend in Canada, which I wrote extensively about on this BBS.

I intend to be at all the SIDC track days (subject to there being places still available a few weeks in advance, as it currently stands) and I look forward to passing you all in a safe manner.

DavidBrown

I don't read this BBS much anymore, so I'm a bit behind on this thread.

Like John, I'm an Impreza owner who takes another fibreglass rocket on the track.

I can see both points of view.

I can see why an IMPREZA club would give priority to IMPREZAs, it just makes sense.. There are plenty of other all-comers track days to attend.

However, to retrospectively enforce a rule to specifically exclude some people seems underhand, and puts the SIDC in a bad light.

If John had been an SIDC member for 2 yrs, I'm sure the cut off date at which Impreza owning members wishing to take other cars at track days would be moved to 3 yrs.

I think if you make an argument for creating a rule, you should make it water tight, otherwise motives will be put into question.

To argue that safety is what's driven this change is an insult to our intelligence, and we all see through it. A faster car doesn't make you less safe. Poor skills (in any car) make you less safe.

I'm not going to pout about it though, I'll be putting my name down on the reserve lists.. spaces usually do crop up - or I'll just attend other track days. It's not the end of the world.

Other than the assinine arguments for the track day ruling, I think the SIDC do a very good job at organising track days, one which is very much under-appreciated by attendees.



[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 21 March 2001).]

DavidBrown

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon de Banke:
<B>Everything has now already been said.
[/quote]

I think the subscribers of the BBS are the best to be the judge of that don't you think ? Isn't that what a BBS is about ?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B> There is no point in dragging it all back up again.[/quote]

This thread has only been live for 2 days and has had a constant stream of posts. I think I replied only 10 minutes after the previous post, so it hardly constitutes "dragging back up".

Hey ho.

JC

There is a natural priority on these sort of things. In my view

1. Paid up Scooby driving members
2. Paid up former Scooby owning members
3. Paid up non Scooby owning members
4. Others

Varity is really nice on a track day but I would be pissed off if it was invaded by 50 Cossie owners slowing us all up ;-)

TFyus

JC... cossie owners get in the way on my rst aswell. that we have in common

rw

SDB

David

"Everything has already been said" was a tactful way of saying that every point you made had already been brought up.

This was a thread with two sides, and both have now agreed that the matter is resolved *as far as this discussion is concerned*.

By all means bring up a new element of it, but I personally thought that bringing up the subjects we have already discussed would serve no purpose and be potentially harmful to the community.

If I am wrong, I humbly apologise to the community, but judging by the number of posts following yours I would assume I am not.

All the best

Simon

Paul Milton

Best of luck John

Paul

John Stevenson

Si, I am most certainly not in aggreement, at least with one point, SIDC sould NOT be able to either discriminate or favour a member based on length of membership.

---john---

madbrit

So... I join a golf club, anxiously awaiting the first tee on saturday morning. Whats this? I cant play on a saturday morning unless one of the "established" members drops off?

What a load of BS!

If the clubs full... its full - stop membership, not priveledges. Frankly it sounds like the club is fulll.... full of it!

DocJock

John

cya at Cadwell !

DJ

buddy

JF,
I must agree with you there that there is nothing cheap about sidc track days you pay the same price as normal.
Buddy (sidc member)

SDB

Hi Chaps

John S
You are missing the point mate. I am not saying that we are all happy and in agreement, merely that points like the one you mention have already been covered and will be discussed at the SIDC AGM.

As I said, this thread is staying open, but so I am not trying to force anything, but it would be a shame to continue a thread saying "It's not fair" when we all know that and have already discussed it, and that it has been agreed that it will be discussed at a point when something can be done about it.

But if it's a continuation of the rant that you want, then genuinely "fill your boots", but it just might not be the most efficient way of dealing with the situation.

I'll but out from now on.

All the best

Simon

Type R

Don't want 2 put fuel on the fire. Thanx for the kind comments, see some of uou at Cadwell MTR Trackday.

Matt