Blood on their hands from defending themselves.

Israel gets attacked by the liberal press for breaching the smallest human rights yet Hamas, Hezzbollah etc kill and torture in cold blood with good conscience and nobody accuses them of being in the wrong.

You won't find Israelis celebrate collateral deaths, it's always regretted, otoh their enemies strap bombs to kids and women and rejoice in death.

It's clear to me who is better morally.

 

Zionism is just Jewish self-determination. Yes you could say it's the problem from one warped POV; there would be no conflict if Zionism did not exist true but that is like like blaming a victim - if the victim did not exist they could not be a victim! I see Jewish self-determination as a just cause just like say the independence of Kosova. It's the cause itself which determines its moral rights or wrongs not the convenience of sacrificing it.

It's not about Israeli settlements anyway. This board is proof enough that the issue is existential - that Israel should not exist - how can there be peace if Israels enemies take this unreasonable position?

 

I disagee and I think it is more than just that. Or, it is about securing Jewish self determination at any price, irrespective of morals. The morality of Jewish self determination and an end to persecution is a greater cause than - well anything. The evidence is aplenty.

So, they're victims now? I thought you hated the apparent 'victim' mentality of Muslims?

Nothing wrong with that, except the lenghts they have gone to and the depths they have plumbed in order to secure that


The position of Israels enemies may well be unreasonable, but try looking at it from the other point of view. You talk about the past and what the arabs have done wrong, but what about the millennia of persecution faced by the Jews at the hands of Christian Europe. That is at the heart of this problem and why the Zionists are so angry, lets face it.

Christians persecuted Jews, then tried to wipe them out. Then the problem gets dumped on the Arabs. Arabs never asked for it. Their lands and rights have been usurped and they are prisoners in their own lands.

If Israel is so wonderful (I would apply this to both sides by the way) why not make the magnanimous gesture and give them their own state? Do you think it is ok to persecute a people?

Israel locks up children, women etc, with no charge, no trial. I heard figures like 10,000 such people locked up in Israeli jails. What would you do if it were one of your own?

But Israel feels justified in launching in invasion killing thousands because one of its soldiers was captured? I don't see the justification, all I see is double standard.

And simply replying with, "They started it" is not an answer is it?

Hamas and Hezbollah might be awful in your eyes, but they don't claim to be part of the free, democratic, civilised World do they? At least they are honest as to their hatred. Hatred brought about by the injustice they have seen around them.

Anyone who can try to justify that is inhumane IMO.

Back to the programme for a second, you know very well that Jewish settlers and their ilks' 'solution' to the Palestinian problem would be a 'final' one.

And you're trying to defend these nutcases?

 

If it was about securing self-determination at an price then the Palestinians would have been wiped out by now.

Israel would not be dropping leaflets telling civilians to get to safety before airstrikes or phoning residential areas up and telling them the same.

Israel is surrounded on all side by hostility and has been attacked 4 times. It not surprisingly breeds a militarism. If you were them you would also be the same.


Zionism is not the problem it's the people who have a problem with Zionism.


Hamas, Hezzbollah etc use child suicide bombers and you try and take the moral high ground against Israel? Absurd!

Israelis aren't angry, the are winners.

Israeli Arabs are not prisoners and it was ***** who tried to wipe the Jews out.

Ironically Israeli Arabs have more rights than other Arabs.

Like I said a peaceful two state solution could have happened in 1948 if the Arabs had no attacked.

Would you say Serbs were 'usurped and they are prisoners in their own lands' because of Kosova?


Most Israelis accept the two state solution and they have been trying to negotiate it.

So did we in WW2.

How many people languish in the jails of Arab interior ministries w/out trial?

It was an attempt to destroy Hezzbollah not some stupid revenge. Is that as simple as you really think? Like Israel are a cartoon villain?

They claim the stand for justice and are doing Gods will.

That's not honest.

I've said that the Settlers are a problem, but they are a fringe element in Israeli society.

 

it really is like arguing evolution and the beauty of science, with a creationist

ultimately pointless, they cannot see past their own limitations and prejudices

and offer increasingly bizarre arguments to support their theories

 

Interesting viewpoint, what exactly have they "won"....

 

Agreed, he can see no problem whatsoever with Israel and every problem, no matter, how small with Islam. There is no point this thread going any further really. You can't argue with an extremist

 

Tony, you made the same claim on another thread about the settlers not running the Israeli state and I pointed out then that two of the parties in the current ruling coalition support settlement in occupied territory. I don't have the figures to hand, but I think you will find the same statement is true of more or less every Israeli government for a long time - the one exception I think being the Sharon government that pushed through the withdrawal from Gaza.

To pretend that the presence of these parties in the coalition government is not a factor in the Israeli government turning a blind eye to the majority of illegal settlements is extremely naive.

 

+1 - stop derailing this TdW

 

Zionism is not self determination. The main guy in that program last night was an Australian FFS! Most of the Jews living in Israel are not indigenous. It's totally different. Zionism is borne out of belief from the writings of a book. It has nothing to do with a people who have lived there wishing to assert their right to a separate state after forcibly being made part of something else.

That area of the world has been populated for thousands of years by all sorts of people, no one group has a right to claim it over anyone else, especially not a load of people who until 50 years ago lived in other places around the world!

It's time that the west got over the guilt of the Holocaust and started to treat Israel like any other rogue nation.

You saying it is a just cause is one of the most offence and worrying things I have seem you post, and considering some of the stuff you post, that's something!

Geezer

 

I think this thread proves that extremism on any side isnt any force for good!

Tony you need to ditch the rose tinted specs - there is often very little difference between Jewish extremists or Palestinian 'terrorists'. Ohh yes there is actually - the Jews have computers attached to their bombs rather than hairy bellies...

If you were Palestiniian and living in Gaza you would SO feel differently.

D

 

I think Louis Theroux with his slightly aloof and almost benign demeanour was the perfect person to make this programme. He has no bias one way or another and has made some eye opening programmes in the past. Given the zeal and the dogmatic assertions displayed by some of his subjects he didn't have to add much to the programme.

 

Israel is a rogue state and if they wanted peace they would have accepted the massive concessions offered by palestine to secure a lasting peace. Every move Israel makes seems to be designed to inspire arab hatred then when arabs react the IDF go in and in typical Israeli fashion children die. The only thing to do is lobby your local MP with a few examples of Israels hypocracy and ask why the UK has any thing to do with a nation that acts in such an evil way. Any one with a concience should email their MP and request that the UK imposes sanctions and refuses to trade with Israel. Make sure as well that no products you buy are from Israel as well.
Western nations are seen to support Israel in their persecution and murder, they also support dictators in arab countries who are friendly to Israel, however evil that dictator may be. This is the fuel for Muslim extremism and if we European citizens force our leaders to act the world will be a much safer place.

 

Bubba, Paul: he mentioned Muslims.

 

Who did?

 

Luan Pra Bang did, Paul. That's derailing the thread, that is.

 

It is tit for tat, hope you are well Paul

 

agreed, it is best that everyone keeps it on topic, whilst the two are not exactly mutually exclusive, obvious attempts at derailing and moving focus/attention away from the OP should be pointed out and not allowed to continue - IMHO that is

 

It's blatant mockery.

 

I won't have any tit mockery on this thread!

 

That is rubbish and totally free of any actual facts, just a litany of hate and lies.

Like I said at Camp David it was the Palestinians who did not negotiate, they were given an offer and did not even get back with a counter offer. What is the 'concessions' you speak of, or are you just making that up to fit your narrative. Are Hamas making concessions when they promise to ethnically cleanse Israel?

...and can I ask you again (maybe you will answer this time) why this has ANYTHING to do with Islam because you keep saying Israel causes Islamic extremism.

A British Muslim person blow themselves up on a tube train and blames Israel? That makes no sense.

 

Go on then, who does this land really belong to?

Jews (Isarelites) have always been in that region....Long before Mohammed and before Jesus. Palestine by name is a modern inheritance left from the Romans. And what there is now is basically whats left over from the fall of Turkish rule (hows that: 3000 years summed up in three lines ).

We all know that Bethlehem and Jerusalem have long been associated with the Hebrews since the dawning of recorded time. But most of the current population are decendants from the Ottoman empire (Turkish rule), who have technically as much (or little) right there as any other settler. On that premise, even the Macedonians probably have as much claim to the area.

My main issues are with a)People pevented from settling in where they choose because of who they are, and b) the removal of people who have already settled there.

Maybe we should put Tony Bliar in charge over there and see if he can invent a multi-cultural Palestine, like he's done with the UK Hell, he may even unite them so they can gain force to oust him - like The Jews and Muslims did when they tried to kick the Crusaders out of Jerusalem.

 

This has everything to do Islamic extremism. Ok, there are many reasons Muslims feel hatred towards the west, but the continued western backing of what is effectively state sponsored terrorism by Isreal against Muslims is the reason why this has everything to do with hatred of us.

The Iraqis invaded Kuwait (one of the reasons) because they claimed it was part of Iraq that had been falsely created after the British carved up the Ottoman Empire. That was declared illegal by the UN, and so we went to war.

Israel occupied the West Bank illegally, but we turn a blind eye.

So not only is it double standard, but in one case we persecute an Islamist country, in the other, we allow Muslims to be persecuted and actively support the Jews. If you cannot see how that breeds hatred towards the west......

Geezer

 

Stop trying to convince Tony this is about I****** extremism. PTMW, Bubba and Paul have all said that isn't. Therefor it can't be.

 

Setle down now Having watched the LT docco what came shining through was the "i am ok so **** you" attitude of the extremist Zionists - they care nothing for anyone else except themselves all other are in equal and therefore do not count or are worth considering. It is not Just about Muslims.

 

They sound like a product of Thatcher's Britain

 

The Persians, Assyrians & Babylonians occupied Palestine illegally too, not to mention the Romans.

Amongst others....

 

Speaking of which, Abraham was born in Mesopotamia or Babylonia, depending on what you read, so he is another person who has no right to be in Israel

God also gives to him and his descendants all the land from the River of Egypt (which I presume to be the Nile?) to the Euphrates. I'd like to see them try and claim that!

Geezer

 

Yup, only a lot more extreme - selfish, self centred, self serving elitists who see everybody else as second class at best and a threat and to be killed at worst - ironically sounds a lot like the ***** and listening to some of the interviews in the LT docco you could have been listening to brown shirts and the SS justifying their actions - i am not belittling the atrocities done by the ***** just drawing fair comparisons - IMHO that is

 

The irony of which is almost too much to contemplate