I think it is a bit more than right to settle.

Ever since the World Zionist Organisation was formed (towards the end of the 19th century) the stated intent has been to set up a Jewish state/homeland. There were other options on the table (a sparsely populated part of Argentina, and somewhere in east Africa to name two) but for religious reasons Palestine was targeted, despite the WZO recognising upfront that it was already a heavily populated area - hence the famous quote from a report to the WZO (in 1904 IIRC) "The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man.". At the time there were small Jewish settlements in the area, but the population was overwhelmingly Arab.

The other major injustice (to my mind at least - I'm sure others will disagree, although without stating any supporting evidence) was the proposed UN partition in 1948, which allocated more than half of the land area to Israel despite Jews making up less an 30% of the population and owning significantly less of the land, and would have resulted in ~45% of the Arab population living within the Israeli state.

 

Oh goodness, we're not going trot out the old ****/Jew comparison again, are we? It just seems so obvious.

 

Being Jewish and hence Zionist is not a done deal btw

Many Jews interpretation of the Torah is that it explicitly denies the existence of a Jewish state.

“the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE.”

 

a lot of jews that i come across dont agree with what the zionist do NO ONE AGREES WITH what they doing but they dont care and they so frigging cocky about it.

 

here lies the similarity that 99% of extremist groups have in common

 

And something that seems lost on some people on here

 

I think the nukes help with the confidence side of things.

 

The comparisons exists on all 'sides', you seem happy to just draw those you choose to where as other hare happy to draw the comparisons regardless

Suggest you listen to the young Australian Jew in his first mini interview - he justifies my remarks and comparison.

 

I don't know what this means, however, I'm about to board a flight to sunny Dublin so will endeavour to work it out over the next couple of hours. Get that third temple built!

 

thats not very nice and certinly nothing to be proud about, they are criminals simple. all my comments are directed at zionist and zionist supporters not jews

 

Tone,

Thanks for your response. I am going to knife and fork this, but may miss something. Please feel free to point out any inconsistency. I will do my best to answer your points, but may point out where I feel you have not answered any of mine.


In my opinion, if that is what Israel and the Zionists felt that they were required to do, they would not have hesitated. They killed as many as they needed to, to secure a state. Today, how far do you thnk they would go/how many would they kill to maintain/defend the State of Israel?

Does that make it ok? "Hello, we know you are innocent, but we believe in teaching your friends a lesson by hurting you and as many others as possible. We know it will make you hate us, but we are stronger, so will just keep killing you if you don't like it. Strength makes us right. So please get out of your house in the next ten minutes as we are about to blow it up. Shalom."

You think this is right???

If I had stolen land by force, set myself up as a conquerer, and killed all dissenters, yes, I would sleep with a gun under my pillow and everywhere else!


Silly thing to say Tone and not an answer to my point that Israel are quite good at playing the hard done by victim here, while bombing civilians with state of the art military weaponry. They are not the victims here.

Do they really? I don't think they do, not in the way you have stated. I suppose that is why Israeli snipers shoot children then hey?


Winning is right, strength is right, do as we say or die? Is that the message?


To 'force' a peaceful solution upon people? What would you have done? If the local council dumped some people in your sizeable (I'm thinking bag pad in Altrincham here) back garden and told you that you must accept them living on your vegatable patch, what would you do?

I know what I would be doing, peaceful as I am!

Former Yugoslavia is not the same and certainly does not support your argument. The Non Muslims there were armed by the Russians, but the Muslims' arms supplies were blockaded and then, guess what? The Muslims were massacred!


I don't see any evidence of this whatsoever. If they really wanted that as a peaceful solution, they are not making any real effort in that direction are they? Please don't respond with, "It's the Palestinians' fault".

You also didn't answer my question about whether it is ok to persecute a people. Do you really think that battering people until they surrender is the way forward? For Palestinians today it is just normal to be persecuted, so the Israelis have squeezed more and more. This is no solution but just appeases the 'Kill them all' Brigade in Israel, which is clearly in the majority/hold sway.


We interned suspicious people in the UK. Israel takes them out of their own country and jails them without trial in Israel. Absolutely unforgivable and another reason for the enemies of Israel to exist. If it was someone close to me, I know what I would want to do.

Again, they do not claim to be civilised democracies with a rule of Law. It's no comparison.

You didn't answer my question, what would you do?

Hezzbollah have won, militarily, against the much vaunted IDF. Prisoners of war are a consequence, on both sides. I don't see Israel as a cartoon villain, I see them as a huge and dangerous threat and clearly no part of a solution.

Stupid revenge 'seems' to be all that Israel is about. As I have said many times now on SN, I find it amazing and sad that both sides find it easier to kill each other than not to. The forces for war and hostility are far too powerful obviously.

I don't agree with it either, but they don't see that. How do you propose to change their minds? To kill them all and then they will see sense?



So are Islamists and Suicide Bombers, but for you they indicate a greater tendency within the Islamic World, but why not apply the same logic to Israel? Clearly the majority of Israelis are happy to support the Settlers and their extreme views. No hope for the future in my opinion.

Hope you can see your way to answering some of my points Tone, I have tried to answer yours, I even agree with you on certain things.

We won't agree, but I am sure we can find some common ground.

Asif

 

To spell it out for the hard 'o thinking

you can draw comparisons between x&y and just because it has been pointed out before it does not make it any less relevant or pertinent - then i made reference to the Aus-Jew who's views where pretty similar to Hitler's (he had something to do with the ***** and the Jewish holocaust you know) - and the Aus-Jew's gist was Master race counts nothing else does. This came across in several of the interviews with several of the interviewees

FYI I do not support any side - i do hate extremists and their views and strongly believe in the tag lines written underneath - both of them!

 

very nice qoute above and its a shame the zionist some how missed that paragraph out some how.

 

Ignore it Mus, it's just designed to get a reaction. Nothing more!

 

In the same way the Koran and Bible are misinterpreted by those who want to do evil to others in the name of religion and give them carte blanche to do so.

 

thanks F1 i do try but sometimes as much as i hate to admit it that two lovers always get under my skin. scoobynet needs them it spice things up and i guess its good to sometimes see what others are thinking lol

 

Jolly good. The quality of the Aer Lingus stewardesses has improved no end, by the way.

 

Glad to hear it

 

agree 100% but the quran has never been changed so it can be interprated in a diffrent ways however the zionist seem to have there complete own version of torah. they should just re name it something else

 

Changing the written word or misinterpreting its meaning - these are different sides of the same coin surely - i fail to see much in the way of a difference

 

The Palestinians are not exclusively Muslims for a start.

It's imaginary to firstly believe they are being persecuted and secondly to believe they are persecuted for being Muslim.

The West bank was occupied by Jordan prior to 1967, the British before that and the Ottomans before them. Until a two state solution can be agreed and groups such as Hezzbollah and Hamas stop threatening Israel I don't see how you can expect it to be autonomous - something it has never been in its history anyway...it's always been run by someone.

 

fair play i misinterpreted you comment

 

don't you go misinterpreting my words and use it as an excuse to do wrong - I'm watching you!;;

 

lol

 

I don't have time to reply to your whole post but you are refusing to acknowledge the facts that the settlers do not have majority support and most Israelis agree with a two state solution in principle. Israel has puts its deal on the table numerous times with the Palestinians and they have failed even to give counter offers. Now you have Hamas and what chance of doing a reasonable deal with they? At least Fatah and Arafat were reasonable to some degree even if they were a failure ultimately. As I mentioned Israel in 2005 UNILATERALLY removed all settlements and thousands of illegal settlers from the west bank which blow away your argument that Israel does not want peace....and here is wiki about public opinion in Israel...note it does provide sources:

As recently as 2007, a majority of both Israelis and Palestinians, according to a number of polls, prefer the two-state solution over any other solution as a means of resolving the conflict.[4] Moreover, a considerable majority of the Jewish public sees the Palestinians' demand for an independent state as just, and thinks Israel can agree to the establishment of such a state.[5]

 

800,000 Jewish people were driven out of Arab lands by pogroms and had to go to Israel. You need to deal with the modern day reality on the ground, this is not 1947 now.

 

Good post, but I really think only peace can be achieved by reason and that does not involve ancestral *****-waving about who was there first.

 

When you get a chance Tone, I will wait.

As for this, ok I agree with you, but why not in practice? Surely it is in everyones interests?

And you can't blame Hamas, because Israel has brought about their creation as far as I am concerned.

Fatah were in power, but they were reviled as terrorists and Arafat was humiliated by the Israelis. Of course, although they coulod use force against him, he had renounced the use of force, so simply had to sit back and take it.

Guess what, Fatah were then replaced by your friends and mine, Hamas.

All of a sudden, everyone loves Fatah. Israel have had plenty of chances for peace also, as far as I am concerned, they hold all of the cards, they have all of the strength, the PR, and ultimately the US to back whatever they choose to do.

I can't see the situation changing, can you?

Asif

 

Tone, this happened AFTER the creation of Israel and the expulsion of the Palestinians.

 

Not entirely and I hope you are not trying to justify it? Never-the-less it means we can't go back to pre-1947 demographics and say this is how it should be now because you have new realities on the ground.

Most Palestinians left because of the war BTW which was not started by Israel. Most left voluntarily BTW in the hope of an Arab victory.