tony de wonderful

But that intolerance is incorporated into law in Islamic countries, thus restricting the freedom of others.

What countries have Christian laws against gays?

It's on thing frowning upon homosexuality from the POV of religion, the other to put it into law.

tony de wonderful

That wouldn't be democracy but a tyranny.

One man, one vote, once.

tony de wonderful

So which schools/branches of Islam in the UK are specifically tolerant of those things?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I can't answer that question, but I think you miss my point. There is no Catholic 'branch' that is officially tolerant of contraception or homosexuality yet there are plenty of people who call themselves Catholics who are either gay or use contraception.

The Muslim religion will modernise and is doing so in the UK already. I have several friends who are as Western as me yet are practising Muslims. They don't always please the 'old school' down at the mosque, but neither do they renounce their religion. They simply practice it their way much like the Catholics have been doing for decades.

Oh and never once have they tried to convert me... just in case another stereotype was racing through any reader's mind.

tony de wonderful

Catholicism is only one school of Christianity. Many times over the centuries Churches have split off from Catholicism over disagreements of doctrine or politics...whatever. Hence why we have the Anglican movements etc.

I don't think the Islam that perhaps you or Warsi practices would be accepted by any Imans or is typical of the Islamic world in general then.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

But do you not think the same thing will happen with Islam? Maybe it already is as we hear about hardliners not agreeng with more moderate (relativey speaking) factions in various countries.

LOL I don't practice Islam, but yes I get your point. Can't really answer as to how fractured the various branches of Islam might be as I don't know enough about it, but I think it will change over time.

tony de wonderful

Yes I do, but the recent 'splits' have tended to be ultra-conservative or at least 'renewal' movements not progressive.

I mean the general history of Islam since it's 'Golden age' is one of opposing innovation, new ideas etc, hence why there has been no equivalent of the Christian enlightenment.

JTaylor

Haskalah. Spinoza, etc?

AsifScoob

Well you find lots of intolerance too, but I am not comparing religions, as I don't care about that.

I've asked you to quantify your assertions Tony, which is a fair question and central to your point. If you have some numbers, over what timeframe, I can make an assessment of the valildity of your point.

IMO, the numbers are absolutely tiny, single figures, at MOST, across the whole Islamic World, over all recorded history. In which case, your assertions over the harshness of Sharia Law towards certain groups are exaggerated.

Not saying it is a bastion of tolerance, that would be silly, but facts over assertions wins every time.

AsifScoob

Vatican? How many Christian states are there? If only one then you have a 100% Homophobic record.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Surely as it moves more into Western society that has to give at least part way? I know it is popular to worry about the Islamic faith taking any country where it gets a foothold backwards, but it just could work completely the other way round.

AsifScoob

Of course it would be, but that's not what I said. I was talking about if the people CHOSE to do that.

Would you wish to fight the will of the people?

tony de wonderful

Much less and the west is by and large secular from the POV of the state/law so the individual doesn't face religious discrimination.


Sure the numbers may be tiny but who would want to be an Apostate when the penalties are so severe?

Iran hanged some Gays only recently BTW.

tony de wonderful

Maybe if it's a Mobocracy.

Mob rule isn't a virtue just because it has number on its side.

tony de wonderful

Christianity had to reconcile with reason during the enlightenment and so now you have secularism (except the Vatican of course!).

Remember Islamism is principally challenging secularism not Christianity.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

If that's what you honestly believed, you obviously can't have tried very hard at all to research the subject. Read, digest, then come back and tell us it's "tiny, single figures ... over all recorded history":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphe...Selected_cases
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005....brianwhitaker

AsifScoob

So we agree the number is tiny? Fair enough. Difficult to have a meaningful discussion Tone, because who says they were only hung for being gay? IMO there is usually something else going on for such extreme behaviour.

In past times, when religion was a major force in Europe, how many people did Christianity kill for various anti religious crimes? Now, I am NOT doing a competition between religions, but just highlighting what I believe to be the evolution of these things, by looking at the Christian, European example.

It also serves the view that Islam will not really catch on in Europe as Europeans appear to be still throwing off the yolk of Christian domination in their everyday lives. I don't think they are about to substitute that for something that appears to be even more stringent.

Sentencing analysis is also a bit subjective. Death Penalty in the US doesn't stop people murdering does it?

AsifScoob

It's not a subject that interests me, so why should I do the research? I couldn't care less.

What's your point?

AsifScoob

Again, I am not talking a mob. I am talking about the people willingly choosing a different way of life?

To repeat I don't think it is a possibility nor is it desirable (to me), but what would you do?

tony de wonderful

Only a secular state can protect minorities. Theocracy can never be proper democracy.

tony de wonderful

Comparing murder with apostasy is disingenuous at best.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

You come on here proclaiming how the insanely repressive religious laws in Saudi and a few other Muslim countries shouldn't be taken seriously because "there's only been a handful of cases in the whole of history when they've actually been applied", and when confronted with meticulously documented evidence to the contrary your response is the subject doesn't interest you?

That young sir, is what's technically known as having your cake and eating it. Either you choose to remain ignorant on the subject and avoid discussions about it, or you man up and come up to speed on the facts.

AsifScoob

Horses for courses Tone.

AsifScoob

I never said that Tone. Obviously the fact that people may choose that way of life, or the possibiolity that they may choose it, does not compute.

Or perhaps the geniune possibility of these things coming about is so far away that it has even dawned on you that it is all political **** stirring by DC.

He needs to get on with the real job in hand.

AsifScoob

What are you wittering on about Mark?

Your own posting history has not exactly been illustrious has it? Get over yourself mate.

I will post what I like, free speech and all that, remember?

What have those facts got to do with us? What possible impact do they have on us, living here? Please enlighten me.

People are running around and screaming hysterically, "We're all going to die! The Saudis are coming!" Are you subscribing to the hysteria that DC has created and others here are lapping up without question?

We will see come the next election how successful they have been with the real issues, they will be judged on that. If he cuts welfare spending, ergo the deficit, then he would have largely succeeded and even I will admit that.

If he doesn't we will be royally screwed and I won't be here!

tony de wonderful

You can choose a religious way of life as an individual w/out having to force those beliefs/rules on other people.

You are trying to justify the oppression of a minority by the virtue of the majority wanting it! That is not democracy by any measure.

AsifScoob

Tony, Amazing! I agree with what you say. I completely agree as to your first sentence, that is in fact how I like my own life to be.

I am not trying to justify any oppression however, please point out to me where I said that?

You're also right again, it is not democracy, as we know it.

However, my friend, this is slightly off what I was trying to get at. What you are describing is your view of what would happen if the UK became a Muslim state. You may well be right in that case. I don't know, I won't be here if that happens.

You have gone further to the point I was trying to make, basically, if the UK population WILLINGLY changed their way of life in favour of Islam, who are you, or anyone to stop that?

As said, I would leave if that happened.

To explore your point, I would expect the UK in those circumstances, to be a much more liberal, Islamic, democracy. However, it's academic IMO as it will never happen anyway and people including you, may I say, are allowing themselves to become frightened by what DC had to say.

It seems to hit at the fundamental fear SOME westerners have about Islam taking over the World, or wanting to. To the extent where some of you feel it is acceptable to use force, perhaps in some sort of preemptive manner to prevent this unholy of unholies to happen.

I think that view is wrong and plays into the hands of the Muslim and non Muslim extremists alike. Just IMO of course.

tony de wonderful

Well my point is that non-muslims in a Islamic state are automatically oppressed because they have to live by laws based on Islam. Minorities are necessarily oppressed by a theocracy to greater or lesser degrees, that does not mean that they are necessarily persecuted just not as free as they would be in a secular state where their rights are guaranteed.

AsifScoob

Fair enough. And no, I wouldn't want to live there either.

Any view on my theory on DC just trying to scare everyone?

tony de wonderful

He's not a demagogue if that is what you mean? I think he had to clarrify his position after Warsi's speech which was at odds with the Tory party stance.