tony de wonderful

That's true but the political goals of the IRA were quite transparent and clear, plus it was only later the conflict spilled over onto the mainland and by and large their attacks preceded telephone warnings.

Islamic extremism otoh is more nebulous and existential in nature. You have a general political-religious ideology which is quite fanatical and devoid of reason.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Of course not, but the Muslims I meet and know don't either so what's your point?

The Dogs B******s

They only wanted to keep their own land,as do ETA,but the 'Others' want to change Ours.(if that makes sense)

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well I agree that when you are dealing with people who are prepared to blow themselves up you have a whole different ball game, but at the end of the day they are a tiny mionority as were the active IRA of course hence why let them dictate how you (not you personally btw, the 'royal you') feel about a whole creed or nationality?

tony de wonderful

Because they are ideas and practices which are very definitely over-represented in the Islamic world.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes it does, but is that really the case? Aren't they more protesting at the West's interference in their lands? I am talking about the terrorist element here btw, You only have to look at the US poking its nose into Egypt to see what I mean.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

But not from what I have seen, certainly amongst UK Muslims.

JTaylor

I now see how you've qualified yourself as an 'intellectual snob'. Cutting analysis.

tony de wonderful

We 'interfere' even by sending emails to Eqypt or buying oil. You can't stop history, the way culture, trade, influence ebbs and flows except with totalitarian government and that needs lies.

Lands don't have a religion anyway and certainly not all people in Egypt are Muslims.

Seems to me they just want power, and that power would severely limit the freedoms of their fellow countrymen. But that is ok because it is 'against America' right?!, and one can take this simplistic approach 'against colonialism' and justify it from that POV?

America is hegamon and it is necessary that in some ways it promotes stability and thus trade around the world.

We all eat after all. You and I rely upon global trade.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well I see what you're getting at, but the converse of that is that America should not throw its weight around as much as it does.

There was a woman from the American administration on the BBC today (didn't get her name) saying that even if the people of Egypt elected a more hardline Muslim government they (the US administration) would not accept that. She would not elaborate on what she meant, but no matter what she meant that is not acceptable to me.

JTaylor

Wow. Another devastatingly insightful critique.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes, pretty much what I expected to be frank. Lots of talk, lots of rhetoric and not much in the way of actions or, as you say, how.

I am still very suspicious of the timing of this little rant. All a bit too much of an obvious distraction from more pressing issues.

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Given my age and history, I'll watch it sink ever deeper into the cesspit that Labour manufactured.

I'm lucky enough to be too old to have to worry about "my kids" future...

Whilst you are all drowning in the economic ****, multi-generational dole spongers, illegals, unnecessary immigrants and Eastern European scroungers.

At least I won't have to spend the whole of your life-time paying for it all.

I'll be dead and gone by then.

dunx

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Labour weren't in for more than a generation.... so I wonder who is responsible for that little legacy.

Aside from that I like your attitude.... very ..... Maggie

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Hopefully we can all be like this model English citizen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auiYB...layer_embedded

AsifScoob

Having a political view does not necessarily equate to politically motivated violence. You seem to attribute certain political views on the whole of the Muslim World, without any evidence.

Did you go out on the town this evening then, or have you just been on here?

Asif

AsifScoob

I don't have problem with your point of view, how you feel, or that you express it in this manner. In fact I haven't even picked you or your previous post out, in any way. However, you have chosen to defend your position.

If that's what you think, that's what you think. Fine by me.

However, your previous post contained some complete claptrap, which does nothing for the point you wish to make.

On your point, indigenous British people are not completely helpless regarding this problem of mass immigration. If people had more kids, who stayed in school until at least 16, then either went into further education and/or learned a skill or trade, and then got a job, there would not be this problem.

There are not enough British children being born, being educated or trained, and in work. It is as simple as that. Your immigration problem would go away overnight. British people should stop looking to blame others for their woes quite frankly.

Govts. for the last 50 to 60 years have some culpability also in my opinion, especially in the '60's, Enoch Powells time in particular, for reasons I have gone into before on SN.

If you wish that the country was some idyllic village green game of cricket, Victorian standards, and English manners, politeness, and smiling being the only precursor for some tea and scones, then you are seriously kidding yourself, as that has never existed in this country.

In the times when that was supposed to have existed, ordinary people like you (I assume that you are neither landed aristocracy, nor in a traditional profession, such as medecine, law, or politics) would have been working on the land, in a factory, or in some low paid trade. You would not have a Scoob, or any car, you would have very little say on the World around you, would live in a (proper) dump, and would have to be doing some back breaking work for at least 12 hours a day for sweet FA.

If that's what you would want to 'go back to', fine.

And that's my opinion, which I am perfectly entitled to.

Cheers.

AsifScoob

But you're only talking about 3 people! And yes, they should go!

Cameron is distracting all of you though with this nonsense. Although he needs to deal with many issues, all this is just fluff if he does not cut public spending, through welfare reform. NOT raise taxes!!!

We can kiss goodbye to everything if that does not happen.

AsifScoob

Come off it Tone! Although prejudiced is a strong word you have plenty of form.

As I don't know you personally, I cannot comment in that regard. However your internet persona definitely falls into that category, IMO.

tony de wonderful

I never said it did but the bombers and other terrorists tend to be fairly vocal etc about their motivations for said violence and political manifesto.

Such as?

I think we can attribute general political view to the Islamists (a truism though) but I never said that about the Islamic world in general but of course the evidence suggests a certain skew of political view throughout Islam and those views tend to be somewhat conservative and by degrees against secularism.

tony de wonderful

Which school of Islam is favorable towards apostates and homosexuals out of interest?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Tony I don't think that matters fot this discussion. It's like Catholicism. Many Catholics call themselves Catholics yet interpret the religion to suit the modern society we live in. The same is happening in the UK with Muslims. The people will modernise the religion and it will be left behind unless it chooses to catch up... whcih in the case of Catholicism it doesn't.

AsifScoob

Ok, but are you not just picking up on the most extreme of views, and some of those are just views, as opposed to actions.

Yes I know about 9/11 obviously, but that doesn't happen every day does it?

And your tone is that of attributing these views to the whole of the Muslim World, it defies common sense and logic.

But then, that's why you get accused of prejudice.

AsifScoob

None. Do you know any organised group, anywhere in the World, of any faith, or belief, or whatever, that favours homosexuals and apostates?

I would say your local secularist gathering (perhaps the Secular Society off the top of my head?) And the local YMCA Appreciation Society.

About 20 people altogether.

As for Apostates and homosexuals, do you have accurate figures for those actually tried, sentenced, and killed for those 'crimes' in Islamic countries?

And don't pull out that piece you did a few months ago, of the Christian woman in Pakistan, I don't believe she was actually killed was she?

Leslie

I think you are right.

We know that "Dave" worships Billy Liar's election successes and has modeled himself on Billy's career in politics.

I am deeply suspicious that this is an NL style "Government Initiative" designed to take our attention and to shift the peoples' attention away from less popular measures which are in the pipeline and that it is intended to let it fade away over time.

If he does try such actions he will immediately be sat on by the PC Plonkers who have managed to attain so much power in this country.

We shall see whether he will surprise us all by demonstrating that he does really have any guts, and if he has, whether he has any ability to go with them.

Les

The Zohan

Most if not all main stream religions frown on or do not accept hiomosexuality. C of E seems to be allowing homosexual vicars and this has caused a lot of upset.

Catholic Church does not accept it mainly due to it not creating babies as in a traditional marriage and bolstering the catholic numbers - you only have to look at how the Catholic church encourages birth/babies in some of the poorest parts of the world to parents who cannot feed or look after themselves let alone children who can and do develop health problems and in some cases die through lack of basic care and nutrition.

I do not know about the Koran and homosexuality - i understand it is not acceptable.

Muslims, Catholics, Christians have been killed by others of their own faith for practising homosexuality - usually buy the hard liners - the extremists of their chosen religion or by those that just like to commit evil and use religion as an excuse.


As for Sharia law in the UK and it being practices - i would not want to see this adopted and would do my utmost to prevent this, it does not fit with he values and culture of this country. Having said that, the law and indeed punishment for some crimes in this country is a joke and seriously needs looking into and updating and changing to reflect the severity of the crime and its impact on those it affects. For those already ignoring the existing laws and structure in favour of Sharia law in the UK then i suggest that the UK is not the right place for them and they move elsewhere to where is is acceptable


This country is by no means perfect but extremism of any type is not the answer to its problems.

AsifScoob

Paul,

I very much agree with your post. However I don't see the link, made by some, with some of the extreme and rarely occurring instances of extreme behaviour and MC in the UK (I am not really a fan of MC anyway BTW).

Does anyone really think those things will happen here?

The stuff about Sharia Law, which I don't think I am a fan of (as I don't really know all of the details about what it is about) applicable in this country was of the type associated with civil matters, divorces and so on.

I am not sure whether Cameron was only talking about that, I assume he was. If so, it is no different to what other groups already have in place, such as Jewish groups. Why the inconsistent approach for Muslims?

Further, what if the majority of people WANTED to have some sort of Sharia Law, or converted to Islam, in huge numbers? Surely it is the peoples' choice in that case is it not? (I'd be the first one to leave the country if this happened by the way) That is surely the only way such things as Sharia Law would become widespread in the UK?

I think the likelihood of the majority of the population converting to Islam is very remote, so why worry?

Funny though, a lot of the punishments that people love to talk about re Sharia Law, executions and so on, is a lot of what the average SNetter would love to be in place for whoever scratched their car, committed paedophilia, rape, murder, and so on.

A lot of those same people turn their noses up at Sharia Law though.

Asif

Leslie

You could be in the situation where there is no choice!

Les

AsifScoob

Do you really think so Les? You know very well how we are led by fear by our political masters. You have railed against such tactics as used by your favourite PM of recent times.

tony de wonderful

You'll find a lot of tolerance in modern Christianity especially on the Anglican side.

Well Iran recently hanged a number of gays. In Saudi it is punishable by death to be an apostate, and even in moderate Malaysia they will take the children away from women who are apostates by law.

I guess it's ok that in Pakistan that women was only arrested and and has not been executed yet!

How many Saudis have you heard of who have dared to test that law!