Matteeboy

Zip - the 335d and 335i are the best direct comparisons of performance diesel and petrol IMO. Same capacity, both bi-turbo, similar bhp outputs, weigh a similar amount, same chassis, etc. They both do a similar thing (go pretty rapidly) in a rather different way.

A mate ran a chipped 335d coupe and used to spank some pretty serious "opposition" at Santa Pod.

graeme jones

BM looks plastic central. Looks like a dull place to sit.

john banks

Ding, I like g-force. With the M3 that could be experienced on smoothly surfaced corners, but not in acceleration or braking as it failed for me in both the go and stop departments.

The M5 on my first drive of it I could wring its neck quite easily and not feel intimidated by it. A tuned GTR is far more of a handful and if I hadn't learned throttle control I would have crashed it long ago. In fact I wrote some throttle control algorithms to improve it that have been used to high praise on successful race cars.

What annoys me about BMWs is that just driving it as I expect to be able to drive a sporty car it feels I'm reaching their limits in terms of chassis composure, braking, traction etc. They are too compromised towards luxury, and in many ways fail at being truly sporting.

I suspect the weight distribution of a Porsche would provide long term satisfaction as there are some advantages to that layout but it is also a challenge to master, rewarding commitment and punishing indecision. But a BMW without sufficient weight over the driven wheels can feel disappointing, with the clever marketing they promise so much.

It is a case of choosing your compromise. I would be a biker except I've decided not to as I would probably die, so I look for similar thrills from a car. Only a tuned turbocharged AWD Jap nutter car fits that brief at my budget. At higher budgets a 997.2 Turbo PDK or a Gallardo would also likely suffice.

Lack of torque, crap brakes, tyres that won't stay on the tarmac, one wheel drive are just crap. Let's not pretend they are some sort of acquired taste, they are dynamic flaws.

Perhaps starting with a Subaru as a performance car spoils you in many ways as they do many things very well. BMWs are a step up in refinement, engine choice and being sensible to live with, but a step backwards from Jap stuff in many other ways. For someone that crunches the numbers on my performance machinery like I do, only Jap will do for me

alanbell

iTrader: (6)

your right with the subaru bit John (and the rest) I started my petrol head bit with a uk scoob , then to a 500/500 plus jdm sti, It was great on track, But sold than, And went to a 55 plate 535 m sport for 10 months, then a A6, now a S6 , Ive owned the S6 for 5 weeks now , So Ive not just driven the BM and S6 for 1/2 hour and said how good /bad they are have I
My S6 is the nearist I will get to a Scoob again, unless I get one just for the track, So let this lot slag the S6 /RS6 off I dont think have any real idea how good they are (like a older mans scooby)imo Ive looked at cars in showroom windows and thought i dont like that, But I would never come on here and say how good/bad it was to drive ect , anyway I got rid of my bmw 535 m sport because it was dull .

drb5

iTrader: (4)

Let's be honest John, there's not many people on the road like yourself.

M3 GTR might have suited you more...IIRC Moses had a mate with one of them...speaking of sh**, i wonder what happened to him?

Jamescsti

You thought wrong then, would I have a VXR8 over ANY BMW, the answer to that is yes I would.
The only car which would probably be better, made by BMW is the M5 but for the cost difference I would still take the VXR8

Matteeboy

Well you seem to be the only one James... And have you driven a selection of BMWs and a VXR8? I doubt it.

JB - still think you don't appreciate decent handling. But for some reason you feel the need to dress it up with a load of waffle slating BMWs. If you were a boxer, you'd want to be a heavyweight but with no finesse, no real skill - just a reliance on power and nothing else. Yes you'd looks imposing, yes it's "impressive" but the skilled middleweight boxer is a lot more fun to watch.

As for Alan, he just stated that an S6 is a grown ups Scooby. A lost cause driving Audi's ultimate example of power and grip over handling.

MMT WRX

There seems to be a lot of professional drivers on this forum. **** me I buy a car because I like it. I drive it for a bit, some things are good about it, some not so good and some things may even be sh1te, then I buy something completely different. My last few cars have been Eunos Roadster, BMW 525, Pajero, Impreza and now R33 Skyline.

Mat, there must be some bad points on your 353d.

john banks

Matteeboy, I just don't think that something needs to have a poorly performing chassis to handle well, it doesn't give it character, losing composure in what seems not to be pushing a Jap car at all is not a feature but a deficit. One wheel drive, poor brakes, suspension that can't keep the tyres on the tarmac over undulations and not enough weight over the driven wheels are all reasonable objections. Drive some Jap stuff over the same route and it suffers none of these problems.

Matteeboy

Yes you keep wittering on about "one wheel drive" - what do most supercars have? RWD. Why? I'm sure you can answer that in no less than 35234525 words. What do the most fun little sports cars have? RWD. Again, perhaps you'll suggest that an MX5 would be better with 4WD...
Poor brakes? I suggest you've just read that from a track test. The brakes on top end BMs are powerful, have good feel and aren't snatchy like Audis are. Yes a few hours at a track will make them fade - but they are road cars not track cars.
Suspension can't keep the tyres on the tarmac? Maybe ones with 19s and run flats (i.e. not M3s) struggle but then so would any car with oversized rims.
You even moan about the lack of weight over the driven wheels - might I suggest you call Ferrari and have a go at them for the 599 GTO, the 575, etc, etc and then call Maserati and do the same. And Merc. And many other marques. All mostly front engined, RWD.

I have driven plenty of rapid Jap cars - Evos, Scoobies, 350Z and others. The only one I REALLY liked was the last shape MR2 and mk2 MX5 and the Evo, although the Evo was mainly because it was simply very fast. Over time the Evo might get tiresome - I only drove it 40 miles or so in it. The MR2 is simply brilliant - not fast but the chassis is a joy. Best Jap chassis ever IMO.

As for Scoobs - sorry but they lost the plot years ago. Steering feedback - left out. Interiors - like a Daewoo. MPG for the bhp outputs? Dire. Brakes? Average. Damping/handling - they grip well, the launch well but the average steering robs confidence. And the image? Dire.

You have stated yourself that your car is crashy, too firm, etc -it's on 20" run flats - what a joke. Fashion over function.

MMT - of course there are bad points, but JB is simply clutching at straws because he doesn't "get" BMWs or in fact, almost any German car. Strange that because an awful lot of people, racing drivers, etc are very happy with them.

Myles

iTrader: (40)

Totally agree, there are the drivers who can afford a decent car, and think it makes them a driver, then the ones who can just drive. Whether that be in a 335d, a Murcielago, an Aston or evan as stated above, an MX-5.

These BMWs are the automotive industry's best kept secret, if these threads are anything to go by.

Matteeboy

Errmm - except 3 series BMs were outselling Mondeos for a while (might not be the case now)...

Myles

iTrader: (40)

So the 3 series is 'better' than the Mondeo (or was)? That is no big brag really.

By the way Mattee, we have had this conversation before about BMWs and Audis, and If I remember rightly it ended with me 'confessing' that the 3 series is indeed a decent car, so I am not sniping at the marque.

One comment you made I must take issue with; that any car under 400bhp doesnt require AWD. Surely the power is only one issue with traction, the torque and how the power is delivered across the range will dictate the usefulness of AWD?

PS I am a ****e driver by the way, I havent even explored the edge of traction on a WRX with minimal mods. Watch this space for remap and certain death!

john banks

Both M cars I've driven had the steering wheel vibrating after repeated braking on five miles of B road driven hard but not recklessly, in this case I agree with the journalists about the brakes on BMWs. But then my standard is large AP, Brembo, Porsche 6 pot brakes which are just in a different league, after sampling those you never want anything else. BMW brakes are made to a budget, it is quite obvious.

The optimum weight distribution for traction is not front engined, RWD. It is AWD or mid/rear engined RWD. The recipe for low speed oversteer is front engined RWD, and some call that fun. I find it a bit shallow personally as the tyres are being used less effectively.

I will not defend the R35's ride comfort due to its 20" run flats, but it has been engineered (if you listen to the vehicle designer) to have the correct downforce for this size of tyre. That is why it manages the traction it does to give the lap times it does, and despite being heavily sprung doesn't skip about over bumps like the BMWs I've driven. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. As it is, the firmness also has a control missing from German cars, and there is a pay off for it. The reviews would suggest the S6 has firmness without control, but I'll reserve judgement especially since I think the press got it so wrong on the V8 RS6.

I'm critical of my cars, but also of my own driving. I'd rather engage you intelligently in discussion rather than you suggesting I'm clutching at straws, reciting track test opinions or am simply wrong because I disagree with your opinion. I've made a number of points which are carefully thought through based on some expertise in vehicle electronics and contribution through that to racing success, yet dismissed as being too wordy or that I don't appreciate handling. I'm not asking you to respect my opinions either, but if you're going to criticise them it would be nice to do so specifically, which in some cases your doing.

I think I've stated most of the points already though, so no point irritating you further by criticising cars you like further, but happy to engage on the specifics.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion for example of why you liked your drive of the Evo so much. I liked that car because the AYC and ACD felt organic, the steering was awesome, it extracted huge forward acceleration from every tyre as often as possible, it had linear responses to huge limits yet was also playful around the limits. It also had good brakes, sensibly sized tyres and superb Bilstein suspension. However, the reason I moved on was it was an unrefined tin box for a daily driver.

Matteeboy

Myles - simply responding to this line:

These BMWs are the automotive industry's best kept secret, if these threads are anything to go by.

JB - I like discussing car stuff with you. If I'm coming across as dismissive, apologies. We have different views that's all.

What impressed me about the Evo was the steering, the grip but also the agility - something lacking in many big Audis and similar cars. An Evo can be chucked around through any bend. A lot of big Audis (and similar) simply cannot do the same with any confidence. Conversely the 1900+kgs 750i I tested felt like a small hatch such was it's agility.

It's not an issue discussed by mags - they just talk about under and oversteer usually relevant only really to track driving. But to me some cars can be grabbed by the scruff of the neck and flung around a series of bends. While others just don't recover their composure enough so don't feel "set up" for the next. IMO big fast Audis are guilty of this yet many fairly modest cars get it just right. And IMO most BMS do too.

john banks

Despite my criticism of the Mk V Golf GTI, it is chuckable in the way you describe, as are Scoobies and Evos, Focus RS, and can be fun for it. The 335i was also quite chuckable but it was obvious it weighed more, although didn't feel as heavy as it actually is, but the Mondeo had the edge in that chuckable feeling I have to say. I entirely see what you mean. The B7 RS4 absolutely had that feeling too. I just didn't want that engine and gearbox (I can see how some do!)

But you know the weird thing is, the V8 RS6 was also immensely chuckable and considerable fun for it.

scooby-tc

iTrader: (2)

I find that my V8 RS6 is a lot more chuckable than the E60 i just got rid of.The handling is superb for such a big heavy car and would put a large majority of BMs to shame on the twisty stuff

IMO

MMT WRX

You must have seen the Chris Harris Autocar track test of the GT3, GT R and the M3!
Very close between the GT3 and GT R, but the point really is the brakes on the M3. After a warm up lap and half his timed lap, his pedal was long and at the end he nearly stoved it because they had gone all together. He commented that the M3 brakes not doing what they're supposed to.

Jimpreza

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/de...?storyId=22914

The new VXR8 is going to cost £49,500 which seems expensive for a Vauxhall imo.

Matteeboy

TBH I found the inlaws 535d a bit average handling wise for a BM. I actually preferred the 750i I tested.

IMO the 1 series is pretty good, the 3 series is decent, not tried the 6, the 5s I've tried are good but a bit less chuckable than a 3er, the X5 is pretty amazing for a massive SUV and the 7 is also amazing for a big luxobarge.

Have no intention of ever trying an X3

Jamz3k

that is brutal looking compared to the current model.

Jimpreza

I used to like these and thought seriously about buying one after I had a disappointing test drive in a Insignia VXR. I am so glad I didn't as I feel they look dated now, especially from the rear.

StickyMicky

Damn they changed the links to my pictures

Anyway they were supposed to be the new VXR8

john banks

My Legacy has BMW brakes disease It is starting to deposit pad material on its discs when exercised, but the pads have 35000 miles on them.

zippy!

iTrader: (1)

W,T,F

Dingdongler

John, I don't think its fair to compare your gtr to a 5 series bmw even if it is the m5. In terms of handling and pace the gtr is way ahead of course. The comparison is between bms, audis and perhaps mercs.

Now when you compare these whether in vanilla flavour or m/rs/amg the bm is on the whole better. You'll often see an amg or rs beat the m car in a drag race but show them a track and the m car iirc nearly always puts in the better track time.

There was the top gear episode with rs4 vs m3 v8 vs c63 amg and though they harped on about the sheer grunt of the amg and the 4wd traction of the rs4 the m3 killed them both on the track.

Don't get me wrong I like all these german hot rods, I've owned amg and rs before and may well again if they can produce a car that is the least compromised of the group.

As for the m5 skipping all over the place and being on one tyre, you must have some really bad roads where you live because I've never had that problem.

My new 535d m may well behave like that but then I have no intention of driving that car like that. I've bought it as a more relaxed family car with enough grunt to keep my interest.

Interesting banter though......

Dingdongler

John, I don't think its fair to compare your gtr to a 5 series bmw even if it is the m5. In terms of handling and pace the gtr is way ahead of course. The comparison is between bms, audis and perhaps mercs.

Now when you compare these whether in vanilla flavour or m/rs/amg the bm is on the whole better. You'll often see an amg or rs beat the m car in a drag race but show them a track and the m car iirc nearly always puts in the better track time.

There was the top gear episode with rs4 vs m3 v8 vs c63 amg and though they harped on about the sheer grunt of the amg and the 4wd traction of the rs4 the m3 killed them both on the track.

Don't get me wrong I like all these german hot rods, I've owned amg and rs before and may well again if they can produce a car that is the least compromised of the group.

As for the m5 skipping all over the place and being on one tyre, you must have some really bad roads where you live because I've never had that problem.

My new 535d m may well behave like that but then I have no intention of driving that car like that. I've bought it as a more relaxed family car with enough grunt to keep my interest.

Interesting banter though......

Jimpreza

Don't worry Sticky I posted the link from Pistonheads further up this page.

zip106

That front end

Those wheels

It just all looks way to cluttered - inside and out, very 1980's.

I'm sure it's quite nippy, though.

dpb

The old one looks much nicer imo