Classic handling vs Newage handling
27 October 2010, 07:13 PM
#31
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Always pains me to see someone make pronouncements with precisely zero experience of a particular mod. And comparing car A to car B when you don't know what else is different between them is ridiculous. Unless of course you personally have done a before and after comparison on a specific vehicle like I did, in which case hats off to you in deference.
27 October 2010, 07:47 PM
#37
Always pains me to see someone make pronouncements with precisely zero experience of a particular mod. And comparing car A to car B when you don't know what else is different between them is ridiculous. Unless of course you personally have done a before and after comparison on a specific vehicle like I did, in which case hats off to you in deference.
However....Unless the same driver sets a time in both scenarios, comparing car and driver ability against different cars and drivers is speculative in comparison to someone who has actually experienced the differences in their own car. Besides, quickness, handling and driver enjoyment aren't the same thing at all.
There are some specialists that would laugh at you for uprating the standard arbs on newage STi's for the same "it makes no difference to track times. bla bla bla..'But what all the doubters singly fail to comprehend is the way a car feels to it's driver. You don't have to be a track demon to know what feels good on your own car. Removing the front subframe made a positive difference to the way my drives and with the accompanying modifications made it into a car that is comparable with the enjoyment I get from my classic. Theres no billy big bollox about it car feels good with it off and I have chosen a different designed frame to replace it.
If I were to pin point the biggest issue I have with the OEM frame it would be the strapping of the front of the chassis to the middle of the chassis which makes the car feel less nimble or 'chuckable'. It also reverberates the pis5 poor ride you get on the STi Struts/springs.
Don't knock it till you've tried it
and it's real easy to take on and off and gives you the ability to comment first hand.
27 October 2010, 11:15 PM
#39
But it fits in the absense of the subframe I take it?
Sorry I can't quite remember what it looks like under there.
Apparantly (I've been browsing zee webs) whiteline say the subframe adds no structural integrity, or chassis strength, but is simply there for crashes.
Sorry I can't quite remember what it looks like under there.
Apparantly (I've been browsing zee webs) whiteline say the subframe adds no structural integrity, or chassis strength, but is simply there for crashes.
28 October 2010, 12:10 AM
#43
www.A-B-W.co.uk Phone and ask for Darren 
Not a cheap mod though. You can buy the front cross member on its own I believe.
I have also seen people chop and weld the OEM frame to suit
Really pleased with mine, worth the money IMHO. Full kit on my SpecD and half kit on my Classic Wagon
Full Kit
Half Kit
Not a cheap mod though. You can buy the front cross member on its own I believe.
I have also seen people chop and weld the OEM frame to suit
Really pleased with mine, worth the money IMHO. Full kit on my SpecD and half kit on my Classic Wagon
Full Kit
Half Kit
28 October 2010, 09:43 AM
#44
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Do you know how many different new age setups there are out there?
Did you do 10 slaloms before removing and 10 after to show your findings?
Unless of course you personally have done a before and after comparison on a specific vehicle like I did, in which case hats off to you in difference.
My point was that a well setup new age on standard suspension (and a competent driver
) will walk all over these super duper setups with average drivers (and John did )There is alot more that people can do rather than remove the crash protection of said subframe (and probably invalidating their insurance in the process due to the chance of greater injury if they are involved in a head on etc), tyre pressures, tyres, ARB's, bushes, check to see if they have worn suspension/springs, so for some when they see threads like this, they will just go and do it, yet +/- 2psi in the tyres could make a good change in the handling/feel of a car.
Tony
PS, my new age doesnt have a front subframe crash beam, but then again its different to the one your car is fitted with
Last edited by TonyBurns; 28 October 2010 at 09:44 AM.
28 October 2010, 10:34 AM
#45
As the master of Spec Cs, what does your Spec C have that the equivelant year (2003?) STi not have if it has the subframe absent? Does it have anything else down there to support the car, or is it a case of the additional welds in the suspension turrets etc?
I seem to remember reading that they moved the front wheels slightly on the Spec C or something??
Last edited by ScoobyDoo69; 28 October 2010 at 10:35 AM.
28 October 2010, 10:50 AM
#46
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www.A-B-W.co.uk Phone and ask for Darren
Not a cheap mod though. You can buy the front cross member on its own I believe.
I have also seen people chop and weld the OEM frame to suit
Really pleased with mine, worth the money IMHO. Full kit on my SpecD and half kit on my Classic Wagon
Full Kit
Half Kit
Not a cheap mod though. You can buy the front cross member on its own I believe.
I have also seen people chop and weld the OEM frame to suit
Really pleased with mine, worth the money IMHO. Full kit on my SpecD and half kit on my Classic Wagon
Full Kit
Half Kit
28 October 2010, 08:00 PM
#47
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[quote=TonyBurns;9680422]My point entirely.
Do you know how many different new age setups there are out there?
Did you do 10 slaloms before removing and 10 after to show your findings?
YupThat's exactly what I did, noting times and cornering speeds in the process. Wasn't difficult. Went through the same process when learning to get to grips with the DCCD.
Not sure what the deal was on all your winks so I hope you like mine
Do you know how many different new age setups there are out there?
Did you do 10 slaloms before removing and 10 after to show your findings?
Yup
That's exactly what I did, noting times and cornering speeds in the process. Wasn't difficult. Went through the same process when learning to get to grips with the DCCD.Not sure what the deal was on all your winks so I hope you like mine
28 October 2010, 08:31 PM
#48
My car is a jdm my05 sti, it has the crash protection beam, if the spec c has this missing then is the basic subframe any different to mine, as the my05 is supposed to be spec c suspension geometry. Not keen on taking mine off at the moment though just I see this as one of the weight savings on the spec c and was just interested.
30 October 2010, 11:01 AM
#49
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Help me out here guy's, so most of you say a classic in standard trim handles better than a newage in standard trim?
I might have to inform Subaru as i think they got it all wrong, click below and then on "History of WRX STI development" and look at the times over the years. Also remember that the BHP of all those cars were pretty much the same due to the "gentlemans agreement".
http://www.subaru-global.com/special...nge/index.html
For a car that is getting heavier year after year they are getting faster on track.
I might have to inform Subaru as i think they got it all wrong, click below and then on "History of WRX STI development" and look at the times over the years. Also remember that the BHP of all those cars were pretty much the same due to the "gentlemans agreement".
http://www.subaru-global.com/special...nge/index.html
For a car that is getting heavier year after year they are getting faster on track.
Last edited by fastboyslim; 30 October 2010 at 01:44 PM.
30 October 2010, 01:29 PM
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My car is a jdm my05 sti, it has the crash protection beam, if the spec c has this missing then is the basic subframe any different to mine, as the my05 is supposed to be spec c suspension geometry. Not keen on taking mine off at the moment though just I see this as one of the weight savings on the spec c and was just interested.
and a quicker steering rack (and wider tyres).On another note, the Spec C is seam welded, standard STI's are not, so they gain rigidity from that.
Tony
30 October 2010, 01:42 PM
#51
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fastboyslim. Are we talking standard UK cars or import STI's here? cos I can't comment on the latter.
On the former I would say the classic handled and accelerated better than the blob, but the blob had better brakes and interior.
On the former I would say the classic handled and accelerated better than the blob, but the blob had better brakes and interior.
Last edited by his-n-her-scoobs; 30 October 2010 at 02:24 PM.
30 October 2010, 01:42 PM
#52
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Tony, Axel has the same 2005 STI UK as i do and they do have the wider track, does have A-DCCD and the G-sensor and yaw sensor, LSD too. No quick rack though.
30 October 2010, 02:19 PM
#54
Unless you are trying to win some form of competition where weight really matters, i'd leave the front crash beam in place, it may save you an engine and therefore a written off car if you had a front end shunt.
I'm not convinced the road going Spec C is a stiffer platform compared to a normal STi, it is a lighter car and some of that lightness is coming from removing some of the metal in the shell. Remember for any competition use they were putting a multilink roll cage back in the car, so shell stiffness in road spec wasnt that important compared to getting rid of some weight, especially in the roof and pillars where you would want to lose weight for CofG benefits.
Anyway, getting back to the OP, Classic and Newage cars are quite different in terms of how they drive on the road, the Newage is a much easier high speed drive, so you can carry speed with less effort, it's a more grown up experience. The early Newage cars were underpowered for the weight and they felt prety dead in terms of handing dynamics, but thats easily fixed with some basic mods, the MY05 is a much more rounded package out of the box, especially in JDM guise.
It's imposible to do a classic/newage comparison on paper though, because there are just too many versions around, and does it really matter anyway? All you need do is pick a realistic budget and then try a few cars in that budget range and see what floats your boat. When i say pick a realistic budget, i dont just mean what you can spend to buy the car, factor in running costs, there is no point buying a car you can just about afford, then realise you cant put fuel in it or pay to service it properly, it will quickly become a disapointment rather than a pleasure.
So basically speaking, ignore a lot of the stuff you read on the internet about this car being so much better than that car, buy what will be fun and suitable for your circumstances. For example i started out Subaru wise in an MY98 2.0 None Turbo Impreza Sport with about 115BHP and had a lot of fun with that car, and that was coming straight out of a 370BHP RWD Sapphire Cosworth.
Impreza's owned.
MY98 2.0 Sport 115BHP totally standard with some 16" turbo wheels
MY99 STi5 Type RA 555 WRC Ltd 300BHP with some handling mods and mild tune
Took a break from Subaru's and ran a 200SX 295BHP
and VW Boro TDi 110BHP 
MY99 STi5 Type RA 555 WRC Ltd 350BHP with some handling mods and slightly more power producing mods, but still mild by current standards
MY05 JDM STi 370BHP totally standard bar a remap/exhaust/panel filter
I've done a few events over the years in my Subaru's, i won the first trophy given to a Subaru at TOTB in my first RA, won the standard class at both rounds i entered in Scoobysprint 2009 in my MY05, finishing 6th and 8th overall, then at this years Scooby Shootout won the Standard class by 3.4s and was 2nd overall just 0.3s behind the winning car on the handing circuit. This should show you dont have to have a mega spec car to have fun, just make sure you can afford what you buy and then go enjoy it.
I'm not convinced the road going Spec C is a stiffer platform compared to a normal STi, it is a lighter car and some of that lightness is coming from removing some of the metal in the shell. Remember for any competition use they were putting a multilink roll cage back in the car, so shell stiffness in road spec wasnt that important compared to getting rid of some weight, especially in the roof and pillars where you would want to lose weight for CofG benefits.
Anyway, getting back to the OP, Classic and Newage cars are quite different in terms of how they drive on the road, the Newage is a much easier high speed drive, so you can carry speed with less effort, it's a more grown up experience. The early Newage cars were underpowered for the weight and they felt prety dead in terms of handing dynamics, but thats easily fixed with some basic mods, the MY05 is a much more rounded package out of the box, especially in JDM guise.
It's imposible to do a classic/newage comparison on paper though, because there are just too many versions around, and does it really matter anyway? All you need do is pick a realistic budget and then try a few cars in that budget range and see what floats your boat. When i say pick a realistic budget, i dont just mean what you can spend to buy the car, factor in running costs, there is no point buying a car you can just about afford, then realise you cant put fuel in it or pay to service it properly, it will quickly become a disapointment rather than a pleasure.
So basically speaking, ignore a lot of the stuff you read on the internet about this car being so much better than that car, buy what will be fun and suitable for your circumstances. For example i started out Subaru wise in an MY98 2.0 None Turbo Impreza Sport with about 115BHP and had a lot of fun with that car, and that was coming straight out of a 370BHP RWD Sapphire Cosworth.
Impreza's owned.
MY98 2.0 Sport 115BHP totally standard with some 16" turbo wheels
MY99 STi5 Type RA 555 WRC Ltd 300BHP with some handling mods and mild tune
Took a break from Subaru's and ran a 200SX 295BHP
and VW Boro TDi 110BHP MY99 STi5 Type RA 555 WRC Ltd 350BHP with some handling mods and slightly more power producing mods, but still mild by current standards
MY05 JDM STi 370BHP totally standard bar a remap/exhaust/panel filter
I've done a few events over the years in my Subaru's, i won the first trophy given to a Subaru at TOTB in my first RA, won the standard class at both rounds i entered in Scoobysprint 2009 in my MY05, finishing 6th and 8th overall, then at this years Scooby Shootout won the Standard class by 3.4s and was 2nd overall just 0.3s behind the winning car on the handing circuit. This should show you dont have to have a mega spec car to have fun, just make sure you can afford what you buy and then go enjoy it.
dunx
30 October 2010, 04:50 PM
#56
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Its not worth you removing it, if anything it may upset the balance of your car, remember that your car is somewhat different from Axel's UK car, to start with you have the A-DCCD with yaw sensors and a wider track and Spec C geometry (and thicker anti roll bars) a couple of nice LSD's that the early UK car didnt have and a quicker steering rack (and wider tyres).
On another note, the Spec C is seam welded, standard STI's are not, so they gain rigidity from that.
Tony
and a quicker steering rack (and wider tyres).On another note, the Spec C is seam welded, standard STI's are not, so they gain rigidity from that.
Tony
06 November 2010, 05:48 PM
#57
Right, I've removed the U bar, weighed in at 12kg. And quite happily managed to refit the undertray. The car ran too cold without it. Took forever to get up to 80c so I'm much prefering to have it back on there.
I'll see how the car feels over the next few weeks and get back to you.
The car ran too cold without it. Took forever to get up to 80c so I'm much prefering to have it back on there.I'll see how the car feels over the next few weeks and get back to you.
Last edited by ScoobyDoo69; 06 November 2010 at 05:50 PM.
06 November 2010, 06:31 PM
#58
Bit off topic but my classic type r when doing 160-180 kms the car feels twitchy like a shaking movement, is this normal. I drove my friends gt4 turbo celica and it was more steady on the road even at 180kms. Anyone i seem to ask says the impreza's have poor handling at high speed compared to other high performance jap cars.
Last edited by MarkC; 06 November 2010 at 06:32 PM.
06 November 2010, 07:03 PM
#59
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New age cars are more stable at speed than the classics, my type R isnt bad tbh, what setting do you have the diff lock on when driving? Have you also checked your tyre pressures and wheel nuts?
Tony
Tony