The "Cash" Economy
05 October 2010, 05:50 PM
#31
I rarely have ever got away with anything, when I contracted in IT I kept much more of the higher amount I was earning comparing to PAYE, I dont think the odd coupel of hundred quid occasionally is that heinous a crime but I reckon most of the businesses that deal in cash pay very little tax, would love to see our local Chinese takeaways tax return, even if you do declare it, with creative accountancy it is fairly easy to keep most of what you take, espeically if used with the one one for me, one for the taxman approach. Thats is why those with businesses tend to be a lot richer than anyone who is an employee, not saying it is all wrong but I think things need to be tougher for those that are not in the PAYE system as those of us in it are getting squeezed like never before.
05 October 2010, 06:31 PM
#32
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It's been a very long time since any of my customers have asked to pay me cash - people just don't seem bothered saving a little bit off an invoice when paying by cheque or BACS is so simple and convenient.
That's not to say I haven't been paid cash before - the last chap to do it was a senior tax inspector.
Suffice to say it went straight into my bank account.
That's not to say I haven't been paid cash before - the last chap to do it was a senior tax inspector.
Suffice to say it went straight into my bank account.
05 October 2010, 06:36 PM
#33
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i mainly deal in cash and to be honest i would prefer a better method, a lot of my recovery breakdown work is cash, other in cheques which i hate, id love to have some form of a card based machine but its too expensive and does not warent the expence, i only make enough for a living and to save a small amount regularily
05 October 2010, 06:58 PM
#34
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WE PAY TOO MUCH TAX, END OF, we even pay tax on our little bit of money we have left to give to our families when we die, its like we exist to pay for politicians expenses!
Last edited by GC8WRX; 05 October 2010 at 06:59 PM.
05 October 2010, 07:05 PM
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My customers ALWAYS want to pay less for cash ,
It gets slightly tiresome tbh , my prices are low anyway
I always sneek under the threshold somehow
It gets slightly tiresome tbh , my prices are low anyway
I always sneek under the threshold somehow
05 October 2010, 07:57 PM
#37
05 October 2010, 08:01 PM
#38
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It is fair in that everyone is subject to it. Just because you don't agree does not excuse you from it, or that others who do pay tax should subsidise your services.
05 October 2010, 08:05 PM
#39
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Havent got trade have we, just cos you cant do foreigners doesnt mean everyone else cant, we get the pi55 taken out of us in tax, i for one dont give a **** if im defrauding the government, those ***** have defrauded us for years with their "expenses"
WE PAY TOO MUCH TAX, END OF, we even pay tax on our little bit of money we have left to give to our families when we die, its like we exist to pay for politicians expenses!
WE PAY TOO MUCH TAX, END OF, we even pay tax on our little bit of money we have left to give to our families when we die, its like we exist to pay for politicians expenses!
The reality is that whatever they have done by not paying tax you are not defrauding the Government, you are defrauding everyone else who pays tax for the services you benefit from - Policing, Education, Healthcare, Doctors, Hospitals, etc, etc.
The total tax burden in the UK is around £600,000,000,000 - £600bn - of which around a quarter is income tax.
Total MP expenses is now around £60m - a drop in the ocean of the total tax collected.
05 October 2010, 08:23 PM
#40
Does everyone being subject to this system make the system fair - is this what you are saying?
Is it not the responsibility of all fair-minded citizens to undermine such a system (by non violent means bien-sur)?
Is it not indeed the case, that by paying your taxes, you are in effect, perpetrating an unjust and oppressive system?
05 October 2010, 10:27 PM
#41
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Well to be honest I don't feel unjustly dealt with, or oppressed by the taxation system - and I do pay my fair share of tax.
Tax is a fact of life. Pretty much every country in the world has it so there is no hiding from it.
Every tax system will have anomalies and wrinkles and you get to be a fair minded citizen at election time and you can vote for the party that you think will align the tax system closest to your needs.
As for you example it is ridiculous. What you are saying is that there should be a significant increase in child benefit.
Why should a couple where only one works have extra tax allowances because they have kids? Why should my tax pounds subsidise someone else's desire to procreate?
So tell me - to who is it unfair? I am sure many tax laws are 'unfair' to someone but it always depends on your point of view.
My wife gave up working long before we had kids. Should I have been allowed to keep her tax allowance too?*
*If you want advice on how to do this PM me
Tax is a fact of life. Pretty much every country in the world has it so there is no hiding from it.
Every tax system will have anomalies and wrinkles and you get to be a fair minded citizen at election time and you can vote for the party that you think will align the tax system closest to your needs.
As for you example it is ridiculous. What you are saying is that there should be a significant increase in child benefit.
Why should a couple where only one works have extra tax allowances because they have kids? Why should my tax pounds subsidise someone else's desire to procreate?
So tell me - to who is it unfair? I am sure many tax laws are 'unfair' to someone but it always depends on your point of view.
My wife gave up working long before we had kids. Should I have been allowed to keep her tax allowance too?*
*If you want advice on how to do this PM me
06 October 2010, 07:52 AM
#43
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and we have been living/working under a relatively low tax regime for the last 20 years, compared with most western economies
makes you wonder where all the money has gone
makes you wonder where all the money has gone
06 October 2010, 08:10 AM
#44
HMRC are so backlogged they can't properly chase all these cash businesses and bedroom traders (ebayers). In some cash businesses in hostile areas, tax inspectors have to get security protection and often refused access to the premsies. By the time an order is served the business has shut up and moved on. IN some cases HMRC tax inspector actually avoid going to certain areas because they know its going to be difficult to make a case due to a messy complex or non-existant paper trail. So instead focus on easy targets who make a simple error on the tax return.
Thing is, it may seem a harmless bit of cash on the side. But it amounts to billions of lost revenue...think about it, if 20% of the population saved a hundred quid in tax by dealing in cash, the government has lost £1.24 billion.
In the end it cost us all more, because the government has to recoup that by charging us MORE tax. We can't demand welfare and moan about benefit cuts and then at the same time thinks it ok to dabble in a bit of cash on the side.
It even happens on Scoobynet - look in the sales section at some of the more regular "private" sellers, admittedly the worst were non members being the typical shysters ('til we blocked them). But even so, if its obvious to me that someone selling stuff on here regularly is doing it as part of an income, then it wouldn't take much for the HMRC to follow it up by being pretend buyers......
Thing is, it may seem a harmless bit of cash on the side. But it amounts to billions of lost revenue...think about it, if 20% of the population saved a hundred quid in tax by dealing in cash, the government has lost £1.24 billion.
In the end it cost us all more, because the government has to recoup that by charging us MORE tax. We can't demand welfare and moan about benefit cuts and then at the same time thinks it ok to dabble in a bit of cash on the side.
It even happens on Scoobynet - look in the sales section at some of the more regular "private" sellers, admittedly the worst were non members being the typical shysters ('til we blocked them). But even so, if its obvious to me that someone selling stuff on here regularly is doing it as part of an income, then it wouldn't take much for the HMRC to follow it up by being pretend buyers......
Last edited by ALi-B; 06 October 2010 at 08:12 AM.
06 October 2010, 08:33 AM
#45
Well to be honest I don't feel unjustly dealt with, or oppressed by the taxation system - and I do pay my fair share of tax.
Tax is a fact of life. Pretty much every country in the world has it so there is no hiding from it.
Every tax system will have anomalies and wrinkles and you get to be a fair minded citizen at election time and you can vote for the party that you think will align the tax system closest to your needs.
As for you example it is ridiculous. What you are saying is that there should be a significant increase in child benefit.
Why should a couple where only one works have extra tax allowances because they have kids? Why should my tax pounds subsidise someone else's desire to procreate?
So tell me - to who is it unfair? I am sure many tax laws are 'unfair' to someone but it always depends on your point of view.
My wife gave up working long before we had kids. Should I have been allowed to keep her tax allowance too?*
*If you want advice on how to do this PM me
Tax is a fact of life. Pretty much every country in the world has it so there is no hiding from it.
Every tax system will have anomalies and wrinkles and you get to be a fair minded citizen at election time and you can vote for the party that you think will align the tax system closest to your needs.
As for you example it is ridiculous. What you are saying is that there should be a significant increase in child benefit.
Why should a couple where only one works have extra tax allowances because they have kids? Why should my tax pounds subsidise someone else's desire to procreate?
So tell me - to who is it unfair? I am sure many tax laws are 'unfair' to someone but it always depends on your point of view.
My wife gave up working long before we had kids. Should I have been allowed to keep her tax allowance too?*
*If you want advice on how to do this PM me
While on the subject though - let me say this.
The tax/benefit system is used to incentivise and disincentivise much social behaviour - being unemployed on one hand, smoking and drinking and so on, on the other.
It seems to me, it is necessary for some people to have children in order for the human race to continue and to look after the economy etc. in our retirement.
We currently have a system, whereby one can use children as a meal-ticket. Is this a good thing? The system encourages the unskilled and feckless by giving them a house and a good income for getting pregnant. As you say, "Why should my tax pounds subsidise someone else's desire to procreate?".
Yet, the same system actively discourages working families from having children, especially when one parent takes out time to bring the children up.
Now I am not a social engineer (I leave that to the wiser heads in the government
), but it seems to me that not only is this system inherently unfair - it is something of a ticking social time bomb.Anyway, I'm off to the job centre.
Last edited by cster; 06 October 2010 at 08:36 AM.
06 October 2010, 09:06 AM
#46
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You state that your example highlighted an 'unfair' tax system.
My contention is that it is only unfair if you are a working family that has both parents working and one has to give up work.
You use social engineering observations may have some merit but social engineering is hardly a defence of fairness. Also your comments on the benefits system are quite separate from the taxation system.
I also contend that if a double tax allowance was there for a couple having children then it is an indirect child allowance.
Fairness really does come down to which side of the fence you are on.
My contention is that it is only unfair if you are a working family that has both parents working and one has to give up work.
You use social engineering observations may have some merit but social engineering is hardly a defence of fairness. Also your comments on the benefits system are quite separate from the taxation system.
I also contend that if a double tax allowance was there for a couple having children then it is an indirect child allowance.
Fairness really does come down to which side of the fence you are on.
06 October 2010, 09:06 AM
#47
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06 October 2010, 09:20 AM
#48
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"Black Money" is what we call it.
Somebody once told me that it helps to prop up the economy because while somebody might punt 1 or 2k towards a builder, he will then punt that back into the economy while spending it on things he probably would not have bought.
It is all toooo complicated for me to be honest.
While most of us car wash folk in this area have been through hell and back with the recession, my local mate had a great big fecking retail park built next to him, it has done utter wonders for his trade, while i was down 7% last month on the previous year, he was up 27%
He has been amassing a nice big pot of black money under his bed, which he has basically used to rebuild a bloody Renault 5 turbo from scratch, his has currently spent 8k on the thing with various local business`s.
The annoying thing for me, is that last year, his profits on paper were classed as lower than mine, yet i did everything bloody legit, and he just creamed it all from the government.
It does make you wonder if its all worth it.
Somebody once told me that it helps to prop up the economy because while somebody might punt 1 or 2k towards a builder, he will then punt that back into the economy while spending it on things he probably would not have bought.
It is all toooo complicated for me to be honest.
While most of us car wash folk in this area have been through hell and back with the recession, my local mate had a great big fecking retail park built next to him, it has done utter wonders for his trade, while i was down 7% last month on the previous year, he was up 27%
He has been amassing a nice big pot of black money under his bed, which he has basically used to rebuild a bloody Renault 5 turbo from scratch, his has currently spent 8k on the thing with various local business`s.
The annoying thing for me, is that last year, his profits on paper were classed as lower than mine, yet i did everything bloody legit, and he just creamed it all from the government.
It does make you wonder if its all worth it.
06 October 2010, 09:28 AM
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06 October 2010, 09:28 AM
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You wont be wondering that when he eventually gets caught and banged up for tax evasion. If I did cash on the side work i'd declare every bloody penny, not because i'm mr goody two shoes but because I know with my luck i'd be one of the ones caught and done big time for it so just not worth the risk to me.
06 October 2010, 09:38 AM
#51
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While most of us car wash folk in this area have been through hell and back with the recession, my local mate had a great big fecking retail park built next to him, it has done utter wonders for his trade, while i was down 7% last month on the previous year, he was up 27%
He has been amassing a nice big pot of black money under his bed, which he has basically used to rebuild a bloody Renault 5 turbo from scratch, his has currently spent 8k on the thing with various local business`s.
The annoying thing for me, is that last year, his profits on paper were classed as lower than mine, yet i did everything bloody legit, and he just creamed it all from the government.
It does make you wonder if its all worth it.
He has been amassing a nice big pot of black money under his bed, which he has basically used to rebuild a bloody Renault 5 turbo from scratch, his has currently spent 8k on the thing with various local business`s.
The annoying thing for me, is that last year, his profits on paper were classed as lower than mine, yet i did everything bloody legit, and he just creamed it all from the government.
It does make you wonder if its all worth it.
06 October 2010, 09:48 AM
#54
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Is it me or is there an entirely spearate economy for certain areas of business, you know Some Builders (Tarmac drives ?), Nightclubs, Chinese Takeaways, Hairdressing as it struck me that half the problems with the country are down to a lack of money coming in the coffers, cash is great but also untraceable, if you get your drive tarmaced will any of that ever go through HMRC.
Can you imagine if Cash was removed from the equation and everyone had to declare every penny like us PAYE slaves ?
Can you imagine if Cash was removed from the equation and everyone had to declare every penny like us PAYE slaves ?
Certain unscrupulous people exploit this and are able to employ these illegals and make money indeed more money than they would employing 'legals'
I would like to see a purge on illegals rounded up and returned to their homelands as they have broken the laws of the land this should be simple or straight forward. If they will not provide proof then i suggest they are thrown off of a cliff, ideally towards France!
DNA and other profiling techniques should be able to match a lot up to their homelands anyhow.
some of the 2m unemployed can take their places to earn their benefits with benefits stopped to those who choose not to work. the rest can retrain for future employment opportunities or again no benefits for them.
<awaits to be told that i am a right-wing DM reading idiot who know nothing about how 'it' works>
Oh and i have just spent the last year funding my own retraining (no help from the taxpayers or benefits thanks
06 October 2010, 09:53 AM
#55
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How much does it cost to investigate businesses that don't pay tax? Millions!
How much does it cost for HMRC to put out a press release saying that they are "cracking down" on tax/vat evaders through the press and media? nothing!
Guess which one they prefer to do....
Its a fact that the black economy keeps the country running, I run everything legit through my company but I know so many people and companies that don't and i don't know that many people!
HMRC investigated my mother and father for years and what did they get out of them after many hundreds of man hours were spent "investigating/fishing?" £600
The chance of HMRC getting any money out of chinese takeaways, eastern european carwash etc has got to be pretty much as close to 0% as you can get.
How much does it cost for HMRC to put out a press release saying that they are "cracking down" on tax/vat evaders through the press and media? nothing!
Guess which one they prefer to do....
Its a fact that the black economy keeps the country running, I run everything legit through my company but I know so many people and companies that don't and i don't know that many people!
HMRC investigated my mother and father for years and what did they get out of them after many hundreds of man hours were spent "investigating/fishing?" £600
The chance of HMRC getting any money out of chinese takeaways, eastern european carwash etc has got to be pretty much as close to 0% as you can get.
06 October 2010, 09:53 AM
#56
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How much does it cost to investigate businesses that don't pay tax? Millions!
How much does it cost for HMRC to put out a press release saying that they are "cracking down" on tax/vat evaders through the press and media? nothing!
Guess which one they prefer to do....
Its a fact that the black economy keeps the country running, I run everything legit through my company but I know so many people and companies that don't and i don't know that many people!
HMRC investigated my mother and father for years and what did they get out of them after many hundreds of man hours were spent "investigating/fishing?" £600
The chance of HMRC getting any money out of chinese takeaways, eastern european carwash etc has got to be pretty much as close to 0% as you can get.
How much does it cost for HMRC to put out a press release saying that they are "cracking down" on tax/vat evaders through the press and media? nothing!
Guess which one they prefer to do....
Its a fact that the black economy keeps the country running, I run everything legit through my company but I know so many people and companies that don't and i don't know that many people!
HMRC investigated my mother and father for years and what did they get out of them after many hundreds of man hours were spent "investigating/fishing?" £600
The chance of HMRC getting any money out of chinese takeaways, eastern european carwash etc has got to be pretty much as close to 0% as you can get.
06 October 2010, 10:29 AM
#57
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We have something like 1million illegals a proportion of them must be earning to survive. That said they cannot be paying NI or tax on earnings as they do not exist.
Certain unscrupulous people exploit this and are able to employ these illegals and make money indeed more money than they would employing 'legals'
I would like to see a purge on illegals rounded up and returned to their homelands as they have broken the laws of the land this should be simple or straight forward. If they will not provide proof then i suggest they are thrown off of a cliff, ideally towards France!
DNA and other profiling techniques should be able to match a lot up to their homelands anyhow.
some of the 2m unemployed can take their places to earn their benefits with benefits stopped to those who choose not to work. the rest can retrain for future employment opportunities or again no benefits for them.
Certain unscrupulous people exploit this and are able to employ these illegals and make money indeed more money than they would employing 'legals'
I would like to see a purge on illegals rounded up and returned to their homelands as they have broken the laws of the land this should be simple or straight forward. If they will not provide proof then i suggest they are thrown off of a cliff, ideally towards France!
DNA and other profiling techniques should be able to match a lot up to their homelands anyhow.
some of the 2m unemployed can take their places to earn their benefits with benefits stopped to those who choose not to work. the rest can retrain for future employment opportunities or again no benefits for them.
If they were legitimised they would raise an estimated £850m in tax revenues each year, and even though many immigrants are here illegally many actually pay income tax. Not the majority perhaps - but many do.
In East Anglia they did an experiment over a year and the conclusion was that immigrants (illegal and otherwise) would do jobs that no-one else would do. When their jobs were offered to the local employment market there were very few local takers. The net effect of immigrants was an actual increase in local employment in services providing to their economy.
Apparently 75% if all illegals live in London - and yet the biggest political and social concern is outside of London. Go figure!
<awaits to be told that i am a right-wing DM reading idiot who know nothing about how 'it' works>
Oh and i have just spent the last year funding my own retraining (no help from the taxpayers or benefits thanks
Last edited by Trout; 06 October 2010 at 10:30 AM.
06 October 2010, 11:32 AM
#58
You state that your example highlighted an 'unfair' tax system.
My contention is that it is only unfair if you are a working family that has both parents working and one has to give up work.
You use social engineering observations may have some merit but social engineering is hardly a defence of fairness. Also your comments on the benefits system are quite separate from the taxation system.
I also contend that if a double tax allowance was there for a couple having children then it is an indirect child allowance.
Fairness really does come down to which side of the fence you are on.
My contention is that it is only unfair if you are a working family that has both parents working and one has to give up work.
You use social engineering observations may have some merit but social engineering is hardly a defence of fairness. Also your comments on the benefits system are quite separate from the taxation system.
I also contend that if a double tax allowance was there for a couple having children then it is an indirect child allowance.
Fairness really does come down to which side of the fence you are on.
Their are many other iniquities I could point out.
I am sure we can agree that no system will be fair for all.
In view of the fact that ones taxes pay for the benefit system, I am not so sure that I would describe the degree of separation as "quite". However, I concede that this may depend on ones point of view.
FWIW - I do not have a problem with the amount of tax that I pay, but I know I am in a more socio/economically advantageous position than many in this country. I suspect you may well be the same.
06 October 2010, 11:36 AM
#59
It is not his fault the government pay him to sit around with too much time on his hands.
Good luck to him for showing a little initiative - who knows, he may even get a taste for work.
And if not, perhaps we can think of him as an Economic Jihadist.
06 October 2010, 12:09 PM
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The business case does not stack up. The NAO estimated that to 'catch' and deport all illegals would cost around £4.7bn and would have no real impact as they would come as fast as they were leaving.
If they were legitimised they would raise an estimated £850m in tax revenues each year, and even though many immigrants are here illegally many actually pay income tax. Not the majority perhaps - but many do.
In East Anglia they did an experiment over a year and the conclusion was that immigrants (illegal and otherwise) would do jobs that no-one else would do. When their jobs were offered to the local employment market there were very few local takers. The net effect of immigrants was an actual increase in local employment in services providing to their economy.
Apparently 75% if all illegals live in London - and yet the biggest political and social concern is outside of London. Go figure!
Self-awareness is a wonderful thing!
Good for you!
If they were legitimised they would raise an estimated £850m in tax revenues each year, and even though many immigrants are here illegally many actually pay income tax. Not the majority perhaps - but many do.
In East Anglia they did an experiment over a year and the conclusion was that immigrants (illegal and otherwise) would do jobs that no-one else would do. When their jobs were offered to the local employment market there were very few local takers. The net effect of immigrants was an actual increase in local employment in services providing to their economy.
Apparently 75% if all illegals live in London - and yet the biggest political and social concern is outside of London. Go figure!
Self-awareness is a wonderful thing!
Good for you!
So 'legitimising' them is an answer? - what exactly is the question Perhaps the question is 'How to encourage and indeed increase illegal immigration by rewarding those who have already broken the laws and are illegally here.
I wonder if the study takes into account the money lost due to unpaid NI and tax the cost to the health service and public services in general and the revenue generated by getting a similar number of unemployed filling the roles to earn their keep.
A big nettle to grasp but surely a better option all round
Last edited by The Zohan; 06 October 2010 at 12:19 PM.