Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

At least you now know how/why he's been trading for so long!

TX.

Dingdongler

Well I rang today to give him permission to take it to BMW and he now says the guy who he usually deals with there is away and so that's a no go either.

So what he would like me to do is pay for

1) The solenoid valves and 4 hours labour to fit and...

2) A contribution to the fan cost

And then we basically part company.

My take on it is that the problem I've come in with hasn't been fixed at all so I as a matter of good will will pay

1) The parts cost of the solenoid valves (ie £360)

2) 50% of the fan. The fan was taken off whilst they were doing the work, and it was working up until I took it in there. Maybe they broke it, maybe it's just bad luck, we'll never know. So that will be £250.

I shouldn't pay any labour as my problem is still there, and I've also been without my car for a week (when the job was meant to take 1 day), though he did give me a 2002 Golf to borrow (that I've insured)

So total cost to me £610, I'll have new solenoid valves and a fan but walk away with the car having the same problem as when I arrived.

Does this sound like a fair proposition?

Leslie

Sounds like a catalogue of incompetence to a large extent DD. Was the vibration dependent on the engine speed or road speed. If he was uncertain he should have got further advice from specialists before he ran you into such large expense on spec. Those who know the make of the car can often point you in the right direction for a cheaper cure.

Sorry it is costing so much-hope you get a satisfactory outcome in the end.

Les

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Ding - did they quote you a price to fix the car, give you an estimate or something else? You're on solid ground with the first albeit fooked if anything else IMHO.

TX.

Dingdongler

The price that was quoted was £360 + 4 hours labour to replace the solenoid valves (which were meant to fix my problem)

My problem isn't fixed.

I need to make a decision on what I'm going to do. How much should I pay him?

Dingdongler

Thanks Les

john banks

Your suggestion sounds reasonable, but both of you end up out of pocket. It seems common to charge for diagnosis and labour even if the problem isn't fixed, but it is the same in our line of work too! However, usually we don't charge end users, but we work with biological organisms that can't be fixed. Someone competent with cars should be able to diagnose and fix it and quote for contingencies.

When we do mapping on a car that has leaks and other sensor misreads etc and things don't work out to plan, we offer to refund the user even though the problem isn't of our making. However, we haven't used any parts.

If I'd fitted solenoids that didn't work I'd feel I shouldn't be charging you for them, and certainly not the labour to fit them if it didn't fix your problem and I said it would.

fatscoobfella1

iTrader: (1)

I agree with John...

Now that he has admitted that he has broken the fan,i certainly wouldnt be paying anything toward that. Nor would i expect a customer to pay either..

So... It depends on the conversation you and the garage had prior to him fitting the valves...
If he said anything along the lines of "im not sire if they will work but do you want us to try them ?",and then you have authorised the job,then i would expect you to pay for parts only..

If the garage diagnosed them as faulty and said they would fix the problem you had,then i wouldnt pay him for the valves or the labour.

I would expect my car back with old solonoids fitted and new fan operating correctly..But with no payment..

Basically back to square one with no expense to yourself...

Just a bad learning curve for customer and garage.

Dingdongler

FSF, he has not admitted he broke the fan at all. All he said was that he had to take the fan off (ie the whole unit comes off) to undertake the solenoid valve replacement. So it was 'handled' during the work.

The conversation I had with him regarding the valves was something like this

Him ' The only fault I can find is the fact that all four solenoids have failed the actuator test'

Me 'Would that explain the vibration I can feel through the wheel/rough engine note'

Him 'Yes it could do'

Me 'Not could it, but is it very likely?'

Him ' I've checked the rest of the car from head to toe. There are no bits loose and no error codes on the diagnostic. I'm pretty sure this is where the problem lies.'

Me 'Ok, lets go for it'

I've asked for a printout of the test that shows the solenoid valves failed the actuator test. He doesn't have it, says they can't store/print that out.

He can give me the old fan though.

I need to give him some sort of proposal tomorrow. So my questions are

1) Should I pay for the valves? (£360)

2) Should I pay for the valve fitting labour? (4 hours)

3) Should I pay for the fan? If so how much? (Costs £500)

I'm a honest person and would not sleep easy knowing I've stitched somebody up. On the other hand I know I'm a bit soft and so don't want to always be the one that loses out.

Thanks again

Dingdongler

That's funny John as I was thinking the same thing ie putting myself in the mechanic's position. Actually in private practice I do charge the end user, though I gaurantee that the punter will be asleep, there is no gaurantee that the surgery will be successful. In fact, they may end up with a whole load of extra complications, as well you know. I still expect to be paid (though 90% of the time that is via the private health insurance)

I suppose the difference is informed consent. We get the patient to sign a form saying they understand the risks and benefits and understand that treatment may fail, or in the very worst case they may actually die!

fatscoobfella1

iTrader: (1)

Hmmmm,

Its not an easy one....

He didnt guarantee that the problem was gonna be fixed with the solonoids,but you went with his educated guess.. It didnt work out..

As for the fan....Are you sure it was working ? I know you keep saying that it was,but that fan would rarely work for cooling operation.If the fan was on all the time,that would indicate that the engine was getting hot in normal operation for some reason??

I dunno...

You need to come to a compromise that your both happy with.

But i would have the solonoids removed so the garage can keep them,then pay a contribution to the fan job..

Dingdongler

FSF

1) I assume the fan was working as the car never overheated even when stuck in traffic for hours. The mechanic discovered the fan wasn't working because he said the car threw up warning over heating light after 20 minutes of being stationary. It never did this before. Can I not assume then that the fan was working prior to the visit?

2) Will the mechanic really want to spend another 4 hours taking the solenoid valves off? Whatever he will claw back in terms of parts he will have lost in labour time won't he?

Thanks, and I know it's not an easy question

fatscoobfella1

iTrader: (1)

Ok..

Yes,you can assume that the fan should work if you was in traffic for hours without problem. Perhaps you should have mentioned this a lot earlier in the thread...

Well if the solonoids are £400ish quid,its well worth him taking them off if its 4 hours work wouldnt you say ???

If you wish to retain the solonoids,you must pay for them..thats only fair.


Lets look at it from the garage view....He is probably gonna be out of pocket £360 and 8-9 hours labour for the solonoids..
He may/may not have caused the fan problem.So he is also gonna be out £500 and a few hours labour and coolant for that job..

So....he is gonna be out £1300-£1400 quid(ish)...Agreed ??

So.....Take into account that he may not have caused your coolant issues,and he was just going with his instinct to try and repair your car as the car itself was throwing no fault codes,even though you know there is a fault..
He could be an innocent party who was trying to do his best for you and its all gone **** up for him,and cost him a lot of money to try and rectify your troublesome car...

Im not saying that this is the case,but there is also another side to the story..


If you want a quick example.... We recently did an 1999 E39 M5 that had a running fault.. It needed 2 air flow meters. These are a very quick and easy job as they sit right at the front of the engine bay and only involve undoing 4 jubilee clips..
We fitted them and the car was running 100%..

2 days later the owner returned and said he now had an oil leak and a DSC issue and his speedometer had stopped working..
He then implied that everything had been ok before it had been into the garage,and now it had these other faults...

We had another look at his car,identified his faults for him free of charge and told him to go elsewhere for the work..

You just cant win with some people'''

Scotsman

iTrader: (3)

There was no guarantee that the values would fix the problem, but given that they failed an actuator test then replacing them fixed a problem you weren't aware of. I think you should pay for the values in full and he should give you a discount (30%) on the fitting costs for them given the original problem is still there.

Re the fan - I think you should pay for it but use that as a leverage for him to take some more off the labour costs.

HTH

The Zohan

Yup, that sounds fair and honest and the right thing to do.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Just as an aside BMW fans can fail - there was a recall of a whole bunch of cars a while back. Not sure what age your M5 is. Mine failed on a brand new car with only a few thousand miles on it.

I think given the diagnosis offered and the authority to proceed that you gave it is reasonable for him to charge you for the valves. Anything else is a negotiation.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Quote or an estimate though? If a quote, you're OK; with an estimate it's just that, an estimate of the cost. Most garages give estimates.

TX.

PS

Taking above quote at face value, they've done what they said they'd do haven't they? So you should pay the £360 + 4 hours labour. You've then got the broken fan which I'd refuse to pay for as it was working when you dropped the car off (their problem IMHO). Your original problem is still not sorted of course but unless you got a "quote" to fix the problem (un-likely IMHO) then all a garage will do is to keep spending your money until problem is sorted.

WRXBOB

You have new solenoids (that will have a warranty on them) so pay for the parts in full.
You also have a new fan (again with warranty on it) so pay for that in full.
Then pay for 50% of the labour.

You've got some new (warrantied) parts on you car at the end of the day, and I don't think that you would win if it went to court. Plus they have TRIED to fix your car, and for that the need paying.

Smaller independants cannot afford to take a big hit, if they do it can put them out of business. Do you want that to happen?

WRXBOB

And you have no proof that the parts were not faulty before taking it in.

Pay the garage, then take it to a dealer and see how expensive it can be!

Dingdongler

Relax Bob, you seem to be getting very excited about the whole thing. Your remark about me putting people out of business is frankly ridiculous

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Not sure how the fans work on a e60, but if its the same as the fan on late model e39 BMWs, what can fail is the signal wire breaks/corrode internally.

This flags up a fault code and usually the a/c stops working (does the e60 M5 still have a viscous main fan?). Output test on the diagnostics would appear to point that the fan is dead. Most garages will will replace the fan as they think this is faulty which technically, it is.. Blaming the crud that builds up caking around the heatsink in the middle and frying the circuit board.

But after dissecting one myself, it is actually quite a complex unit (the fan motor is a DC brushless type unit, and has an array of comunication microchips and drive circuitry inside it in the middle), after initial glances for any burnt bits, I noted the sense/signal wire was green with corrosion; I tested this wire (there are three wires; one communication, one positive, one earth) and bingo...the wire was open circuit. Replaced wire, tested on car fan worked fine, sorted. £400+ saved.

I'm not saying this is the problem with your car, but say if the wire had gone brittle and was disturbed, then it could cause a problem. But fact is if this was the case, there is no doubt it would have broken sooner or later.

fatscoobfella1

iTrader: (1)

Ali..

E60's dont have a viscous fan...There fan function is module controlled.The module is controlled by the ECM and the IHKA..

Your diagnosis for the E39 is spot on!!

DD.......What happened in the end ??

skeeter

You took an e60 M5 to an inde? I cant quite believe that..... because that means you bought it without a BMW warranty.....

Anyway, re the vibration, does it happen at speed, under load or braking?

S

Dingdongler

Err, which bit can't you believe? I bought the car 4 years ago when it was about a year old. It's now 5 years old so there is no warranty. Simples

The noise (altered/rough engine note) is there from idle, and seems to get worse up until about 2krpm. After that it doesn't seem to get worse and seems like it gets covered up by the increased normal engine noise.

The vibration that accompanies the altered engine note can be felt through the steering wheel, and sometimes through the seat. Again it's there from idle and gets worse for the first k of rpm and then doesn't seem to get proportionally worse after that to 8krpm.

It is NOT related to braking.

Thanks

skeeter

I ran an e60 m5 for 2 years and wouldnt have even contemplated buying one without AUC cover given the car seems more complex than a space shuttle.

Anyway, I had a vibration too which turned out to be a single wheel weight missing from one of the rear wheels. Having said that, you mention the vibe is from idle therefore doesnt seem my problem was the same.

It was pretty amazing the difference this one little weight made, at very high speed (on a private race track) the car was almost undriveable.

Could be the VANOS units?

Is it in gear or neutral? I wonder if it is the clutch?

S

fatscoobfella1

iTrader: (1)

So DD.......

What happened in the end ?


Edit...

This any help ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-E60-M5-ENG...item255e400459

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

HMMMM.
Tech no.2!
BMW Qualified tech.
12 years experience(and still in network), and litterally just finished the latest m power training course at wokefield park training academy for BMW! Thats that cleared up.
Ding, this is sounding very much like the oil supply to the vanos units, which i previously mentioned to you on another thread.
You really need to get the pressure MANUALLY checked at the T PIECE union between the vanos units (directly under the front of the intake plenums, it is visable)
If the pressure is poor to the t piece then you need to remove the feed line (lives inside the crankcase) and then pressurise the line to see if it leaks.
The BMW GT1 tester (which i personally have) will not be able to diagnose this. Plus it will only be checked with the correct tools, which only main dealers and very proffesional indys will have.
Ding, you said you were near me. If you pm me the last seven digits of your chassis number, i'll get a price of a fan on the most discount i can get for you. Hell, i'll fit it "for a drink" it really isn't too much of a job to replace.
With regards to your fault, you need to get the car into a dealer. It might cost money, but you have far more support/experience.
If you want, look up "hexagon of highgate" they are my dealer and i can see if i can wiggle a discount on labour for you.
Cheers, Matt.

zip106

You work for Hexagon?

Oh dear.... can't see them ever giving discount on ANYTHING!

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

They are hard *******s when it comes to joe public yes!
But i am staff, and my "good mate" has an issue so i'll get him a little deal.

Sounds like you've had a bad experience with Hexagon Zip??

zip106

I've enquired over the years but nothing came to fruition.

The prices are an absolute joke and they 'never give test drives without a deposit being placed...'

Just don't do a search on Pistonheads for 'Hexagon BMW'...

They are to BMW what Hendon Way Motors are to Porsche!