Urgent-legal/ethical motoring problem!
 

This is a bit complicated but here goes.

My car has a vibration that comes through the steering wheel at low revs. It's been there for a good few months. I took it to an independent last week. He had a good look over the car, ie engine mounts etc and could find nothing wrong/loose etc

He tested the solenoid valves and these threw up faults. He said we should change these, they cost £90 each (there are 4) and four hours labour.

Anyway, it took him all day to fit but he rang me to say the car was over heating now. Further investigation and he says the fan control unit has failed! Anyway, the fan was working up until I went in there. There is no way I would drive a car for 10 seconds if I thought the engine may fail.

He has to replace the fan because otherwise the car is in a dangerous condition. The cost of the fan is £450! He says that the fan could have failed at anytime, and my thought is it hasn't failed in 5 years but has failed during the 6 hours they were under the bonnet

The worst thing is the problem I went in with ie the vibration through the wheel is still there!!

He rang me today and said he'd like to take it to BMW main dealer (who will charge £90) to get them to have a look and see if they can shed some light on matters, and then take things from there. He says he wants to fix the problem. He also hinted that though he won't charge for labour if the problem isn't fixed he has fitted £800 worth of parts

On the whole he seems like a reasonable chap, the company has been trading for 11 years and was actually recommended by somebody on piston heads

I don't know what I should do, and have no idea what my legal standing is. I don't want this guy to be out of pocket but as you can imagine I don't want to pay £800 for parts that 1)never cured my problem, and 2) failed whilst under their care.

Any thoughts/opinions welcomed

Parts fail and it makes no difference in who's care it was at the time..

What exactly do you mean? How do I know that it wasn't damaged somehow by them?

Sounds a bit suspect to me, have you posted up on the bmw forum? i'd look for a reputable local specialist and take it there, assuming you havent done that already!


Wonder what the mark up is on a £450 fan?

On first read this does sound dodgy, it does annoy me when garages take the approach of changing loads of parts on a car to try and fix a fault rather than trying to diagnose the fault in the first place. In my experience BMW dealers are bad for this, for example replacing the oil cooler mounts to fix a vibration on my three series and then discovering that the oil filter bypass valve was stuck open and that actually was causing the problem. It was only a few £ to fix this but I still went away with a bill for several hundred for the oil cooler mounts :mad:

Ask to have the original fan back so you can get it tested independently if required, only do this when you pick it up so as to keep them on their toes and if they say they've chucked it (bad practice), ask them to retrieve it from whatever bin they've put it in. You own that part after all, knackered or not.

No, the rrp of the fan is over £500, they said that's the trade price as they get it from BMW

:mad: Feckin double post :mad:

oh ok, im not used to beemer prices :)

Thats ust it, you don't. old parts should be passed back to you however who is to say that they where damaged, they failed becuse they where disturbed/move/removed, etc.

With a recommendation should come some peace of mind. However the guy told you the cause ehat he believed it to be and you took him at hos word and replaced the parts he felt at fault.

Now you are back to square one minus the money for the job he did plus the parts that failed.

I would look to him for some good will due to him fitting parts you did not need due to a poor/incompetent diagnosis. He is the specialist you the customer.

I would be looking for him to fund the BMW diagnostic and to refund the parts if fitted in error - labour is a negotiating point of course.:)

Well no doubt the guy has been charging you the full rate for his work, £40 per hour plus. So now he's saying he's not up to the job and wants advice (from BMW). Well he should pay for that and refund you if the BMW advice is that the solenoid valve replacements were a red herring. I'd have got a 2nd hand fan from a breakers and taken a chance :)

If it were me I would like to try and understand what the solenoid valves actually do and why they might be responsible for a low rev vibration. A BMW forum might shed some light on this?

I thought BMW cars were perfect anyway :D

dl

It's all very confusing!

I'm not sure BMW are going to say he has fitted the parts in error, he buys £100,000 worth of parts from them a year so they have a relationship.

Does anybody know what my legal standing is? If I wanted to could I just demand my car back and say I'm not going to pay anything as my problem has not been fixed and I went in there with a functioning fan?

I meant to say that I had a similar problem with my 17 year old diesel 205. But we didn't refer to it as a "low rev vibration" . We used a more technical description - a f,ucking noisy rattle :lol1:

Still we cured it - just bought some louder speakers ......

dl

If you want to get heavy on the legal stuff ask trading standards for advice.

My opinion would be that you have a case for valve money back (since that clearly made no difference) but you will have to bear the fan cost especially if he told you before getting a new one.

PS. If you are paying BMW £90 then I think you have a right to a written report on the situation.

dl

David, I haven't paid anything as yet.

Possibly a metal pipe on the engine or exhaist slightely rubbing on the chassis or steering rack, low revs will vibrate as the frequency does this, higher revs won't as its a different frequency.

Also thye engine will move more under load on low revs.

Move then........ :)

dl

I would say as long as you verbally agreed to him changing the parts, that is that covered, and legally you would be obliged to pay for the parts and the labour.

Garages irritate the hell out of me, but its one of those things, that if you knew what you were doing you would not have it in a garage in the first place, so you have already laid your cards out.

Hope you get both things sorted out either way.

He says or you know?

I'd be tempted to call up and ask another garage about your 'failed fan' see what the quote is and if it is a common fault as stated.

5t.

First off what car is it ????

I am a BMW indy so i may be able to throw some light on the problems for you.

More info needed before i can comment...

there is a BMW mechanic knocking around on here i'll see if i can find his username..


aswell as fatscoobfella there's rookymat https://www.scoobynet.com/member.php?u=101077

Thanks, I did have a quick word with Rookymatt earlier in the week.

Fatscoobfella, it's a 2005 M5. What other information do you need? There are NO other error codes on the diagnostic if that helps?

Thanks again

Ok...

Do you know what diag machine he is using ? It needs to be at least a GT1 dealer spec machine to even think about working on the S85 engine..

So the car is E60 Pre LCi M5....I take it the valves you talk about are the solonoid valves for the Vanos units ?

Yep the solonoids are just over £90 a piece,but im interested to know why these were changed ?
If your getting vanos fault codes(especially if its feedback codes) its very hard to detemine whether its the valves,the vanos unit itself or the high pressure pump that operated the units themselves...

To be honest with you,i wouldnt have put your car anywhere but the dealers. The S85 is a very complicated unit,and you need to be working on them a lot to become familiar..

There isnt many E60 M5's about and even less hit the independants,so there are very few people that have the knowledge to diagnose a fault accurately..

There is a flow test for the oil pressure into the Vanos on an E60 M5,it has to be done manually and not through a diag machine IIRC.....But only the dealers have the kit to test it and spec's..

Coolant fan comes with shrouds and control unit and Realoem quotes around £494...

I doubt very much whether the garage has damaged anything that will control the fan operation.Unless they have actually broken the fan blades. The fan control and operation is module controlled,that module is in turn controlled from the main ECU.. Have you ever heard the cooling fan kick in at all ??

Thanks FSF. Can we deal with the two separate issues?

1) Yes, I'm talking about the solenoid valves for the Vanos units. There were NO Vanos fault codes. He said he did some sort of other electronic test on the solenoid valves that indicated they weren't working properly. What would that be then?

2) He said the control was faulty, and the part comes as the whole fan. He gave the same argument as you ie it's an electronic part and he couldn't have broken. So maybe that is the truth then?
I think the fan was running when I used to switch the engine off and get out of the car.

Thanks again for your help

When I spoke to Rookymatt last week (he's either a BMW tech or trainee tech) he also said that the pressure in the Vanos system should be checked manually. My Indy did it electronically!

I think your wheel bearings are on the way out too....or I am sure thats what is next.:D

Look at the logic you took your car in to be fixed,isit fixed yes or no?fan aside that is another matter,ask them to put your parts back on,offer to pay a nominal labour payment tell them you dont feel they are competent to repair your car.If they say no Soliciters letter,trading standards,press, also if they withold the car tell them you will hire a vehicle for work and charge them.You have to give them the chance to put things right.

Yes the control unit is an electronic module situated very low on the cowling...

As for your question,what could be wrong ? It could be anything!!!!!!

I dont know your symptoms well enough to even hazard a guess.. And to be honest i wouldnt guess with a car like yours.Your indy has had an educated "guess" and this is why we are debating your situation....

Like i say,if your want an accurate diagnosis you will need to go to people that experienced with the S85...And really an Indy isnt gonna be the best place.

Maybe a company that is a daignostic specialist if you dont want to put your car into a dealer???

The fans...........Do you always have the AC on in the car ? If so,this will spin the same fan to cool the AC condensor,maybe this is what you hear as the fan shouldnt be on everytime you exit the car.It doesnt mean that the coolant control side of the module for the coolant temperature is working correctly.... VW/Audi is very common for the same problem..

Looking at it from the garages point of view(which i will inevitably do),You brought a car in with a running problem,they have tried to diagnose it(albeit incorrectly),but in the process of trying to fix your car it starts to overheat. What are they to do ??

Personally if it was us,i would inform you of what had happened............Your inevitable reply "it was working when i dropped it off"........And so the tale starts...We have heard this tale a million times,as im sure your indy has..

Your car probably had this fault,but you just didnt realise it.Maybe you just havent been in the situation where you cooling fans were needed???

I dunno,its not an easy situation....

Yours is a specialist car,as well as being a supercar.Not just any tecnician can work on these cars competently..

FSF, I need an educated guess please from you on two counts

1) Is it likely that the fan/control unit could have been damaged by something they accidentally did? Or is it more likely that it was just one of those things and it just happened to fail in those six hours it was with them?

2) They told me they did some sort of diagnostic test on the solenoid valves. Any idea what this is?

Thank you

Ok,

1, Its likely that the control unit has been faulty for a while,not just in the time they had the car.I doubt its something they have done,its tucked away low down on the cowling on the nearside,so the chance of accidently striking it or damaging it in some way would be minimal.

2,The test on the solonoid valves would be an actuation test. That means that the Vanos solonoids can be operated directly via the diag machine rather than by the car.This is so you can see if the solonoids have a smooth operation or have broken altogether..

Oh....BTW whereabouts are you ? Perhaps i could recommend somebody ?

Thanks, you have PM