Bob went to Slovenia this morning. text or email is probably safest.

David

 

Thanks,

Non urgent so will be happy to hang around for advice. A question for you chaps:

Should a 450 capable turbo (twin scroll) come up for sale second hand is there one that you would not look as favourably upon? By the same token, by looking at the lm450 or chevron equivalent am I dismissing a turbo in a similar price bracket?

 

The SC42 TS is having a lot of good reviews, good spool, good power and the price is around the same as the lm450, not sure what the chevron unit costs.

I also have a lm450 on mine and I must be honest I love it, I'm yet to go in another TS car with a different turbo with the same or above capabilities, one of the chaps in our local group has just opted for a SC50 so I'm looking forward to a run in that, his is a fully forged 2.0 so be interesting to
See what kind of results it pulls out the bag its going to be running a meth mix to help it get on its feet quicker lower down the rev range so should be good!

Shaun how are you finding the methanol use, have you noticed any differences to the way the car runs at all, I'm just taking mine off the road for a month or two to sort a few things out and when it comes out it needs a map tweak as I'm changing my exhaust and other little bits and pieces on the car, but I'm still undecided if I can be bothered with it all tbh, I know in my head it sounds easy to run but I use my car every day, I know I don't have to run the methanol constant but if its there I'm going to want to use it so if I do decide to run with it I need to get it sorted before the mapping day so it can be done in one go.

Just looking for any negatives I suppose that you have personally come across

Craig

 

Ty`s car will be interesting. Some say a SC50ts is better suited to a 2.5 than a 2.0, but running meths with it should "torque" it up a bit..I`m looking forward to the results.

 

Hi Craig,
Methanol use has been a lot less "stress" than I thought tbh. I've just taken delivery of the next 50ltrs this week and I can't really see me going back to straight VPower at the moment. The car runs great on this stuff and the only downside is the need to decant into 5ltr cans and have two of them in the car. For what I use the car for it makes no odd's to me in reality.

I'm impressed overall.

 

Now that it's starting to get a tad more pleasant outside, I thought I would start some jobs I've been meaning to get around to.... but never had the inclination.

First up was to was to make a remote "test plug" switch for easier ECU programming as and when required.

Just to revisit......

To enable me to re-program my OEM ECU with EcuTEK's EasyECU / ProECU, you need to bridge the test connectors from behind the bottom of the dash (drivers side). Doing this enables the appropriate software to switch the ECU into "programming mode". Unfortunately to do this it's a bit of a pain in the ****, getting on your hands and knees, to root around trying to find the connector off the car loom to plug the little "shortening" plug in to.

This is what the plug looks like that connects to the car loom:




The black wire coming out of the back simply bridges the two connections, "enabling" the ECU programming mode. What I want to do is break this bridge and fit a remote switch (so I can enable and disable the programming mode), which I can leave mounted (and this fly lead) to an appropriate place on the dash.

I find soldering and electronics quite therapeutic and this is really basic stuff in reality.

Bought a simple and small locking single throw switch:


Had some two core wire in my "spares bag":


Some people get quite nervous at the thought of soldering, but it's as much about practice as it is anything else (I do a bit of PCB soldering / circuit creation in my spare time with consoles, arcade machines and general gadgetry stuff)..... oh, and planning everything out and taking your time - even for a simple job like this. The amount of times I used to rush stuff and forget connections, order of putting heat shrink on, only realising I would have to rip everything apart and start again.

Always remember to "tin" your joining connections for a nice solid joint.... and remember to thread the heatshrink on first!





Next on is the heatshrink.... double bagging it.





That's one "end" complete.... now on to the switch end and the same process again.







After completing a continuity test with a multimeter we have a remote fly lead to switch test mode for ECU programming.




Something else about datalogging on these OEM ECU's
Something that is very very useful with the EcuTEK commercial programming suite is the ability to gain access to the stored "Fine Learning Knock Correction Table". I've previously explained the abilities of the OEM ECU to deal with knock control and how it dynamically trims ignition to enable the MAP to be optimised based on several criteria. Unfortunately with regard to the consumer software which is EasyECU, ProECU or Deltadash, you're unable to quickly see this learnt data unless you complete a proper logged run - which isn't that helpful in a number of situations. However the commercial programming suite gives you immediate access to this data for relevant load and rpm points and can be read from the ECU's stored tables. It's a great pity access to this data is not made available with the consumer software..... but there is a way around this and I only found this out the other day.

I'm sure you have perhaps heard of OpenECU, which is an open source software suite that enables you to log, program and do all sorts of other things. Whilst this is not to explain and highlight any form of open source ECU programming tools, one specific program called "Learning View" enables you to gain access to this discussed missing function from the consumer EcuTEK software. The great thing is that you can still use the OpenECU logging software even if your ECU has been reprogrammed with EcuTEK. You can't use the original EcuTEK OBD lead, so you'll have to purchase a TACTRIX cable to read the ECU. I got hold of a TACTRIX 1.3 cable some time ago and this lead works fine (for data logging) across all ECU types as far as I know.

You simple install an application called EcuFLASH which is only being installed to load all the relevant TACTRIX cable drivers and then you install "Learning View".

Once you connect everything up you just need to switch the ignition on to gain access to the "Fine Learning Knock Correction Table". The screen looks like this:



The interesting part is the lower half of the screen which shows any fine learnt knock correction, based on load cell and rpm point.

This example shows no learnt correction across the whole table, which is undoubtedly where you ideally want to be.

Using Methanol I'm quite interested as to how the ECU is dealing with this, based on differing environment conditions and across several different fills (albeit the same measured mixes). You never know whether the quality of the mix is always the same, but this is certainly a nice easy way to see if everything is as it should be. It's a great facility for having an instant "nose" at any fine learning.

When I checked mine it had zero learnt correction (as per the example) which was pleasing.

The more and more I delve and understand, not only about the OEM ECU, but the types of software facilities available, I really do appreciate how great some of the OEM ECU's can be.

If any of you guys know of any other features or software applications that provide useful logging functionality (Learning View has been available for some time now!), I would be eager to here about it.

 

Might be worth also logging FBKC too?

 

Is "FeedBack Knock Control" not superceeded with the overall Ignition Advance Multiplier (IAM) for general "state of play" logging?

 

Forget I asked that question.... I was getting my control strategies mixed up with what I have used within DeltaDash.

What's the advantages of logging that (I'm not aware that is available via DeltaDash) over and above IAM, Learnt Correction and Knock Retard already available within DeltaDash?

 

I dont know much on the subject really, mainly have read from Romraider & doing some of my own logs only. But in Romraider logger, (opensource) its good to log FBKC as it is "immediately applied knock correction" for very short periods of time. Multiple FBKC's will then cause change in IAM or FLKC, so there is a possibility of having some FBKC and no knock correction showing in IAM or FLKC. (only one knock control strategy can be active at one time)

But saying that, all that is probably well covered within the Ecutek software your using.

 

Here's the three ways of logging knock events in DeltaDash (against RPM in this instance); IAM, Learnt Correction & Knock Retard:



I'm of the understanding this data (alongside the fine knock tables with Learning View) gives me all the knock event information needed, apart from driving around with a pair of DET cans on.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1688639

Back in 2009 it seems maybe Ecutek did not log FBKC, but they might now have an equivilant table called something else?

Below is a brief but interesting summary of Romraider Learning view, knock control strategy:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1688639

Quite a lot of the "full fat" version Romraider faqs went over my head!

 

If you're all very very good, I might have a bit of an "exciting" update later next week.

In the meantime you'll have to make do with seeing my new man nuts!!


These are for my new Speedline GT1 wheels, which I have yet to get fitted as I needed some new nuts and obviously tyres.



I was about to purchase a set of nuts from eBay, but at the last minute spoke to Speedline. I thought they would be mega expensive for their own nut...... how wrong could I be.

The nuts are M12 x 1.25 closed end and cost me a whopping £1.20 each inc. VAT! These are a Speedline spec (so you know they're specifically for the wheel and car model), complete with a 6mm shank at the end of the 60 deg. taper seat, to aid fitting and provide a neat fit. A proper mans nut!

I'm planning to get these fitted next Friday, which brings me on to Tyres....

I was going to get a set of Yoko AD08's fitted, but for some unknown reason Blackcircles have stopped stocking them in 235x45x17. So because I just want this sorted and using blackcircles is convenient, I'm going to opt for a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 Asym. 2's (unless someone tells me they're garbage lol).

 

They're garbage

 

You are mad Shaun.

Just give Simon at Chevron a call, he is a Yoko dealer and will sort you some tyres at a good price.

 

After more digging around it perhaps appears to be a supply problem for that specific 235 width on the AD08's. Camskill also state no stock and no et on re-stock. Yet 225's appear to be plentiful @ BC and Camskill. Just checked another on-line dealer...... out of stock on the 235's.

Would I be a jockey going for 225's (assuming 235's are a non starter)?

 

There's another option Shaun have a look on http://www.tyretraders.com/
I have used them and found them great both on the phone and with delivery.

Great wheels by the way

 

No stock boyo.

 

The link was one thing but I was not looking for you as well

 

sent you a pm shaun.

 

I went for 225`s (but thats ok, Im a "jockey")

 

Right, I had to organise the fitment of new rubber for today as decent rubber is going to be needed next week (more on that next week). Due to the inability to get hold of the AD08's I plumbed for a set of Goodyear F1 Asymetrics 2 (235x45x17).

John and I have bought the same type of wheel and John had problems getting hold of nuts that were a good fit for these wheels. Suffice to say the speedline nuts fit properly (as you'd expect) and are definitely keenly priced.



When I had bought the wheels, the guy selling them said he had a set of original Speedline centre caps. However because these are the motorsport rim, centre caps are not meant to be used.

This is what they looked like with the new boots on and on the car:


Whilst it doesn't look "bad", it doesn't look as nice as this:




A bit of lateral thinking enabled me to fit the caps securely, but still with the facility to let me remove them if and when needed.

Here they are on the car complete:


I think they look quite "retro".

First thing worth saying..... if any of you guys are using old RE070's on your scoob. BIN THEM!!!!!

As soon as I drove down the road with the Goodyears on, the car felt so much better. Almost a "limo" ride quality in comparison and actually feel much, much better on the road.

That's what happens when you have rock hard RE070's. No wonder I was getting so much wear out of them. On the second set of rims, it means I can now use them for track days..... I can actually do them now having a second set.

 

Good choice of 'day tyre' Shaun .. I went the same way a while back and never regretted it as the tramlining on the 235 RE070s was horrendous with our roads - however wonderful they are for the track. Just don't push the Goodyear's too hard as you will slide - but great in the wet.

 

I'm sure they'll be fine for me as a road tyre. The spare rims I have now will undoubtedly receive some Yoko's in the near future for anything track related.

The marked improvement of the Goodyears in "feel" was remarkable, but was hardly surprising if I'm being honest.

 

+1 for the Goodyears

 

Another day, another map & another dyno run!
You would be forgiven for thinking that I wouldn't have any more mapping done on the current set-up, but you probably realise by now that I like to "mix it up" a bit and just, well, do more experimenting.

If I'm being honest, what has brought all this on was a comment that Charlie (owner of Surrey Rolling Road) made when I was there last.... "You'd probably get more power if the car was mapped on the dyno that you were attaining the figures from."

Mmmmmm....

For this to ever happen it made sense for me to use Surrey Rolling Road, but unfortunately that causes some logistical issues, with regards to getting Richard Bulmer (which always causes me issues fullstop, as I have to book up normally far in advance) and then of course getting him down to Surrey Rolling Road, which in effect is going to be a full day of Richard's time.

As I'm sure you are probably all aware.... I'm in a fortunate position that everyone who has worked with me, supports me and the project substantially. Support only goes so far and I certainly don't expect the earth on each occasion...... obviously I'll take it if it's on offer!

Anyway.....

I had already been talking to Bob Rawle about him getting involved in the project at a previous stage, and in reality we re-ignited that conversation a month or so ago (taking into account what I wanted to do next).

Just to be 100% clear.... this was never ever going to be about comparing mappers or their abilities. So please don't read anything in to any of this in that way.

Bob was very enthusiastic about "getting his hands" on the car and a plan was agreed.

The Plan

Of course Bob was going to be starting (on my car anyhow) from scratch, so we needed to plan appropriately for that. We were originally going to go for at least 2 full days of mapping, allowing for road mapping of both VPower and Meth separately, followed by appropriate dyno mapping. This was really going to be pushing it, so I decided to make it a bit more relaxing and suggest we just complete the cycle on one fuel for starters.... 20% Meth. If everything went well and Bob hadn't had enough of me by then we could organise further sessions for plain VPower.

I remember saying to Bob "The community are only interested in power, so let's go straight for the Methanol mapping!".

The plan of attack was:

Day 1
Complete the base map followed by as much road mapping as practically possible in Swindon (Bob's location).

Day 2
Complete the dyno mapping followed by final road checks at Surrey Rolling Road.

We managed to organise this on two consecutive days, being this Wednesday and Thursday (yesterday).

The dyno was booked with Charlie and we were all ready to go.

Day 1

I turned up at Bob's and after a quick chat Bob started to prepare the car for mapping. Loading the car up with his wideband sensor, along with boost gauge, det cans and his laptop.







Bob then started by creating a base map.



So what is a base map?

If you're starting from scratch on a car, then you need a map that enables you to at least get the car effectively running appropriate to the modifications that the vehicle has. If you were literally starting this process from scratch it would (I assume) take hours and hours, but with many mappers having accrued vast amounts of experience with different set-ups, they can normally complete this task fairly quickly. Ultimately most mappers will take a map that they have previously created, with a car in a similar state of tune. This is why it's fairly important that the mapper knows specifically what specification you have, as well as your intended use for the car.

I hope Bob doesn't mind me saying this, but he is quite **** about appreciating the specification of your car, as different elements can and may effect what he needs to do to make the map and the modifications work in harmony. Bob went through several area's concerning nuances with my boost control valve, map sensor & spark plugs etc. Certain pieces of hardware would require changes to the map, to allow utilisation of the requirements. Again, this is where experience can make a difference.

After Bob had constructed and loaded a base map, off we went to complete the road mapping side of things.

As with every car, mine spends its time on tarmac, so whilst dyno's are very good, it seems to be a preferred option to complete appropriate mapping on the road, in the conditions that the car is likely to see. Looking at area's like part throttle, running through the gears, cruise and various areas of transition between all of these. Driveability is key in my opinion and it is NEVER about peak figures (well... shouldn't be for a road car certainly).

Every 'tool' has it's advantages, but for this element of the mapping, the road is king.

Everything went really well during the road mapping and Bob commented that he was very pleased with how the set-up was responding and how the overall mapping exercise had gone. We finished up with completing a couple of back to back Road Dyno pulls, just to achieve a bit of sensibility. If I remember correctly, using Bob's own method of normalising the Road Dyno data and calculating a flywheel figure, it came out at 455bhp @ the flywheel. Now don't read anything into that figure as the map was far from optimised for peak power. Based on the state of the map and how the car had responded, Bob was pleased with the power at this stage.

Bob did say to me that I shouldn't worry when I'm at the Rolling Road tomorrow, initially seeing low figures to begin with. He said it's perfectly normally as he prefers to optimise in stages, to ensure everything is fine and doing what it should be doing. This was in part the reason why the current Road Dyno figure was on the low side.... the real optimisation for power would be done the next day at Surrey Rolling Road.

Day 2
Well the day didn't really start off the best. Bumper to bumper traffic on the M1 and then major congestion on the M25! To top it off my iPhone car charger packed up and I had to buy one from the m/way services.... for an extortionate £24!!!

After turning up at Surrey Rolling Road, Charlie got the car on the rollers and Bob loaded the car up with all his equipment again.



Sitting in the viewing area at SRR (never been in here before, as I'm normally in the passenger seat) this is what you can see. The current graph and a video of the car running. The graph up at this stage was the previous dyno run and power figures attained at SRR - this was going to be the initial benchmark for Bob.



So.... the runs and the optimisation started.

As Bob had previously said the initial runs were fairly low, with the first run being more or less **** on with the Road Dyno runs ran the previous day. After Bob was happy with the fueling and AFR's on the dyno (which actually matched what Bob saw on the road - something he normally finds using SRR), the power slowly started to climb.

Bob had basically reached the same level (peak figures) as the previous map by Richard, but now wanted to play with the cam timing, boost and ignition to see what gains could be attained. This is where the use of a dyno (assuming environment is stable and results are repeatable - which they are at SRR) can really pay dividends, as you're able to run back to back and see if map changes improve (or not) the curve. Something that is impossible to do on the road.

This was the final result:



Bob, Charlie and I discussed the results afterwards. The first thing Charlie said was "You need a bigger turbo!". Bob was very very pleased with how the car was responding and how the set-up was working all together. He made specific remark on how well the engine was running "it's sweet", making specific remark on it doing exactly what he expected and was taking ignition very nicely. The ultimate constraint now appeared to be airflow at the top end and that more airflow was needed to achieve more power. Everything was doing what it should at this level.

I remember saying to Bob that whilst "Fortune favours the bold, it doesn't favour the stupid". Bob laughed at this point and we both agreed that for a standard engine (that appears to just keep giving), this was going to be it and the achievement was very good.

It's easy to forget at times that this is still an untouched 2ltr engine. Undoubtedly operating at it's peak performance on this set-up (dissection of the graph and what it really means below). I also need to make specific mention of the fact that this car is still on the standard OEM ECU. How many other cars are making this kind of power and curve shape on one of these.... not many and it's a real testament as to what's possible with OEM equipment.

Charlie pulled the car off the dyno and Bob & I went off to complete some road checks to ensure everything was 100%.... which it was.

So let's dissect the power graph.....

490bhp/475ftlb


Boost


The first thing I noticed was how smooth and "nice" the graph looked, secondly was how much mid range "grunt" the set-up had gained.

This is all more evident when we complete an overlay between the current map and the previous one.

Overlay between previous map and current map (this uses the previous map run as the main graph, so hence the 479.1bhp being reported - green line is current latest map (490bhp) and pink line is previous map (479bhp).



Again..... it's never all about the peak figures and whilst (peak wise) it's picked up +11bhp and +10ftlb, in the midrange it's increased by up to +28bhp/+28ftlb.

The torque and power through that midrange is pretty awesome I'm sure you'll agree. Especially for a 2ltr. I noticed it on the road checking with Bob - my backside clenched a few times on in-gear runs.

Whilst the boost has been very slightly increased in the midrange (over my previous map) and it's certainly not running low boost targets, it's still fairly sane as this level. With a built bottom end I'd certainly be trying to aim for 2bar initial and held through the midrange (obviously reducing again at the top), so there could potentially be more midrange available from this turbo, had the engine (or my stupidity on the standard engine - lol) been spec'd to allow that kind of level.

All in all a very pleasing result and in my view, worth the effort and a very interesting exercise.

Many thanks to Bob for his time & knowledge.

Oh... and I nearly forgot. I need to update my position in the ScoobyNet EJ20/EJ22//EJ25 ** ON Standard Internals ** LEADERBOARD

 

With them curves, I bet its fun to drive on the roads....

 

That's one way of putting it Cliff!

 

Good going Shaun, nearly 500 lb/ft on a 2 litre is awesome!!!

 

Excellent write up Shaun and a great result