harvey

iTrader: (48)

My interest in intercoolers is in performance not appearance and this is measured in two ways. Monitoring ACTs at the throttle body and measuring the pressure drop across the core. I have directly compared the Perrin, APS and Hyperflow plus Autobahn and Japspeed and none of these cores perform as well as the Hybrid GT2.
If you are in any doubt about this put your own effort in to some testing.
Shaun fitted the Hybrid on the strength of my recommendation and the fact that it would outperform any top mount at his tuning level.

We were going to fit the SC50 to H13 but as that is currently without an ECU for longer than intended and my forced absence has delayed the actual testing, that turbo is now in P93 (Sti 3 Wagon) and mapping and testing will take place very soon.
Items required to go to twin scroll were sump and pickup, oil tube and dipstick, headers and uppipe and downpipe.
I have not yet come across an uppipe in the aftermarket that is any better than the original Subaru item and I am only using RCMS tubular twin scroll headers because I could not locate OE Subaru secondhand.
I do think that heat wrapping headers and uppipe are even more important on the twin scroll.

DeweyAXD

Took a while but what a great read!!.... I tip my cap to you Shaun!

While I've owned 3 scoobs over my years I'm only now on my first STi (Hawkeye Spec-d). I love the idea of doing what you've done with your car with my own... methodical, well thought out and slowly progressive mods that are all designed for enjoyment and tested on the road.

I'm sure I speak for many UK spec owners in saying "Damn I wish i knew where a UK spec could be taken like this up to the mostly OEM stage". Sadly bank role means for now I'm only just funding Delta Dash (the reason i found this thread). Really looking forward to learning how to use it 'just for kicks' at the moment with an eye to future comparisons and mods.

Anyway your opinions on the above UK spec statement would be well accepted even when I know its a very subjective topic and one thats maybe not suited to this thread (hence ignore it if needs be!).

More to the point though.... Did you ever get round to trying a 95 vs Vpower map before you left the virturally all OEM route behind? ( ) - I know you are now moving on and its probably not something you'd even consider at this 450bhp ball park but I can see you love your data so i thought I'd ask!

Keep it up!

Semion

I'm sorry for posting some quastions in the Shaun's car project thread, but I think my car is in the same power level, a bit different hardware setup, will see the results very soon, my experience shown here may be useful for someone..
I have no time for thinking and choosing the new engine internals, because the mapper will come to my city in 7 days (half year of waiting for him !), and the engine is just opened today, so no any of a free time, have to do everything quick with a hope not to make a mistakes same time. Today I bought what was in stock in my city, this is: Manley 92.5 CR8.5 stroker pistons set, Tomei 121033 79mm fullcounter forged crankshaft, K1 forged rods 130.5mm set, ACL crank bearings set standard size, ARP 11mm studs, and the grimmspeed lightweight crank pulley
After some quick reading the threads about the piston choice, I decided to buy the Mahle pistons, due to closest to OE pistons clearances 0.04mm = low oil consumption, less ticking noise but.. there was not any in stock around here. CP pistons are rated as for hard motosports here, so I had to buy the Manleys.
Does anyone here have the experience with the Manley pistons? How they are? The piston skirt-to-wall clearance should be 0.07mm, as I understand from the paper attached. As I understand they are rated between the Mahle (street use) and CP (racing use), so they are a compromise between reliability and the strenght.

The tomei forged crank is expensive, they show some hi-grade production technologies applied to this crank on Tomei website, will see how it will pass the real-life balance test tomorrow.

K1 rods - they say they are made in china.. On K1 website they say: "Sizes held to some of the tightest tolerances in the industry, +/- .0001” and +/- 1 gram per end." I hope this is truth.

Did I did the right hardware choice for MD321T turbo support? Anyone see something is wrong?

Thank you guys. Sorry for poor english

Shaun

Thanks for your kind words.... hope the information has been of use.

OEM 2.5ltr and tuning don't always go hand in hand. It's a good road motor but has it's limitations, certainly to a far greater degree than the 2ltr version. You could push it to 400bhp but your reliability will be greatly deminished imo.

If you want to retain reliability you need to limit the boost. Standard set-ups and you're looking at around 360bhp/380lbft with a decent exhaust, air fliter and good remap. You really need a mapper who knows his stuff imo on these 2.5's, to retain as much reliability as possible. DET is not your friend.... even moreso on the 2.5's.

Never tried the 95 map in the end..... never had the time to investigate and then I just forgot about it.

Maybe, just maybe, I'll try it in the future.

DeweyAXD

Thanks Shaun.... Feared that was probably the case from what i've read up so far on the 2.5. To be honest its the chassis mods that will always be first for me anyway and given that i have had good results from Whiteline bits in the past it was good to see that you felt other WL products were of benefit on road use

I think for now it'll be enjoying learning a bit with Delta Dash, up the chassis and await the inevitable moment when the 2.5 HG pops and then look at some forged parts to add a bit of life and long term 'modability' to it (assuming that can be done by forging a uk lump without selling my house of course )

Maybe i'll help that moment come with a change of the basics and an Ecutek mapping session - a nice safe 350 sounds good... Until i have it of course and then i'll want more more more (pop!). Gotta love this Scoobyitus... If only they did pills for it!

Had a feeling the 95 map got left in the pile of 'could do's but can't be arsed' and who can blame you!

MartynJ

Hope you don't mind me sidetracking on your thread a little Shaun ?

In what way did the Hybrid GT2 out perform the vastly more expensive APS and Perrin intercoolers Harvey and at what HP level do you think it might swing the other way.
The Perrin core is reputably good for 1000bhp and the APS 525bhp or 725bhp dependant on which core you have. Are you saying that the Hybrid GT2 can also work well at these bhp/temperature levels ?

Shaun

DeweyAXD,
You never know, your engine may be a good 'un and lady luck on your side.

There is a realisation at one point, when you ask yourself.... "How much power do I REALLY need!?". For me that comes down to what is now a more or less pure road car, having reasonable power without any of the stress and potential pain.

I'm at a crossroads in many respects. Turbo Dynamics and Litchfield Imports are offering to supply and fit another "version" of the LM turbo (bigger) to see how it responds. It's awesome having sponsors like this, but I do feel I need to draw the line somewhere.

This is not about ***** out power and bragging rights. This is about a sensible level of tune, with a remit of road use bias, whilst maintaining a good level of reliability.

Whilst I do check my oil (habit from the 2.5!), I don't check it anywhere near as often and it doesn't budge a mm. My only concern is how much fuel I have.

I don't care who overtakes me on the road and how much BHP someone else has.

I took a drive to Richard Bulmers (Tracktive Solutions) last weekend.... first time out in the car for over a month and really enjoyed the drive. The odd "squirt" every now and then and I was happy.

It's all too easy to choose to ignore the crap that can potentially come with more BHP, but it's something I don't want to repeat again if I can ever help it. If I went to 500bhp would it really make my car that much quicker on the road..... will it F***! Another 100lbft would be nice... but that isn't going to happen on my OEM 2ltr in reality.

In some ways this is why Meth or a n other fuel mix, is looking a preferred option. If gives me the choice of what I want to do, when I want to do it. Gives me potentially more power / torque and retains the current driveability.

We'll see what transpires.

Martyn,
Fill ya boots.

To add to your discussion on FMIC's, I found the Hyperflowd Monster to be exceptionally good at thermo control. I have never completed any back to back tests though.

DeweyAXD

Interesting where you are at with your thinking there Shaun.

I mean I don't know you at all, never met, talked or e-messaged and I really have only got to know your attitude to Scoobs/Tuning from this one thread.

For me (and this is just me) it looked like you actually came close to what I would see as 'the sound road setup' when you got the Billet 400 (not 450) done and the Whiteline bits on.
An odd statement maybe given the gains the 450 billet clearly has over the 400 but it was right there that the OEM began to hold you back and kinda forced you into doing the 'less bang for buck' FMIC route. Once that was fitted it 'felt' like you knew you were at a new datum point where you were at a low level of tune based on high quality aftermarket kit fitted. That has in a way then pushed you nearer the '500 bhp would be good' point.

All just my ramblings based on what I've read into the posts (lets face it with the Jubilee on I was barely concentrating at all on reading this thread cause my eyes were literally riveted to the coverage! ). Its neither a bad or good thing either as I'd feel the same way I think but just interesting from the perspective of someone that liked the idea of an 'affordable' (cough) road weapon.

As for me well I totally 100% cursed my own car with last nights post as today, just one night after posting, the signs of the HG going arrived!! Cannot F**ing believe it!!

Still i'm booked in late next week now with APi for a 4-5 week repair and forging.... pleasing and gutting cause it was not a spend i was looking for (yet!) especially after having the car for 4 weeks!!

Delta Dash is here now too (once i install it all)... I'm kinda tempted to do some road dynos even with the HG issue present just so I have some useable data for me and all those other UK 2.5 owners with potential HG failures on the horizon. I might ask you where you think those signs would show on the logs (but only after I go blind browsing the EcuTek forums for hints!... i've taken too much post space on here alread!).

Keep this going though mate... wherever you end with this car (if at all) the final result will still be a damn good read!

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Don't be tempted try road dyno runs. If you melt the top off a piston and it fails you'll have to spend a whole lot more money to fix it................

Of course we'll just make more moeny out of you if we do

So yes go on try it, TRY IT NOW.

David APi

DeweyAXD

You know if we were in the U.S David i could probably now go out, blow the bejesus out of the 'motor' and then use the end of that post to 'sue your *** down the mississippi' - frankly though I'd rather just let you give it a bit of forged TLC and get me back going again (in exchange for her majesty's finest english pounds of course!).

You might recall the car David (cause its not like you see many Imprezas daily ) - you kindly had a good look round and a listen for piston issues on my way back from me buying it 4 weeks ago. At that point it was idling stable, temps all good (even after the motorway jaunt etc etc). Just goes to show how the HG gremlins can sneak up on you (as you know all too well from when we chatted!).

Not even worth a quick static logging session though for some data?.... or shoud i curb my Delta Dash enthusiasm and just try plugging it in to the APi courtesy car?!

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

B*gger!!, that seemed like a perfectly good car, what a shame, I didn't realise it was you. Never mind, it'll be better after the job.

I wouldn't bother with any Delta dash stuff that requires any load or hard running, but I guess that just general data cannot do any harm.

We'll see you sometime next week, when we get our green wagon back. Practice by all means on the non turbo, one lady owner from new, beast.

regards David

Shaun

100% agree with that... something I have said on many an occasion. For everything that level of tune promises to deliver... it does.

There is always a BUT though.....


And that "BUT" should answer the above as well.

The main difference (comcentrating on cost) between these two levels, is the the additional FMIC and Induction Kit. Assuming you're paying for everything at retail and having it fitted, you're going to be talking the best part of £800. Unless you haven't got it (lol), £800 is not a great deal of money and in my opinion it's always better to do everything in one hit, as that can actually save you money.

This real "thing" behind this is what YOU want to do with the car. If you're considering tracking use, you really do need to think about a FMIC for the benefit that provides in efficiencies on track. Whilst the car has been nearly 100% road, I always wanted the added flexibility..... the FMIC gives me some added flexibility.

I'm not going to be shy about it but I have been heavily sponsored throughout this project. If I had been paying for it all I doubt I would have moved away from the LM400..... it certainly delivers. Being sponsored makes quite an impact to what I'm able to test and write about, as it opens up the doors to trying several revisions of products that most would probably not follow in the real world. That's a fantastic opportunity in itself for me, but really does provide good feedback and information to everyone reading the info I gather.... that's the biggest benefit in my eyes.

I hope this goes to explain the kind of direction I have taken, as in part, it's been as much about finding out a level comparison against the next "tweak" (which doesn't normally happen in the real world), as it has about developing an awesome road car. It's a very thin line that you can step over..... My feet are currently on the right side of that line imo, teetering on the edge! lol


Aww crap and so early into ownership. I feel for you mate.

You'll be in very good hands with APi


Have a play by all means but dont think Delta Dash will give you an insight into whether your HG's have gone. Water pissing out of your expansion tank tells you that! Been there and have the t-shirt!

Don't worry about asking questions on this thread either..... it's here to invoke discussion on the subjects written about. I'll be more than happy to help you answer any Delta Dash questions you have, so fire away if you wish!

DeweyAXD

Cheers Shaun... I'm always one for look at the positives in any bad situation and an API forged 2.5 is always going to provide more reliable fun for my needs as I doubt i'll ever look beyond the 350bhp mark (on the OE turbo at least).

I must admit £800 all in at retail for a quality FMIC and induction kit fitted shocked me a little. I really had it down as a £1.5 - 2k venture unless you fit a flee bay 'oops did that ally pipe just shatter through my turbo' cheap one. I also totally agree with the 'do everything in one hit' thinking (just don't let David see that before I turn up! )

I think even if you were to start stepping over that thin line you mention that you could do it with the knowledge that you've kept to your plan. I bet there are a fair few who are in the 'i'd love a safe 400' bracket and they can all now see a safe proven tried and tested route via this thread.
Meanwhile if your sponsors are tempting you with new turbos and shiny bits that need testing then well.... its rude not too really isn't it

As for Delta Dash I've got it up and running now... I've been a good boy and have not/will not do any road dyno before the HG fix (sorry David) but its nice just to take it for a non boost drive and watch the coolant temps vs radiator fan relays etc... pointless maybe but entertaining and lets face it how many of us love walking to a car and plugging a laptop in (even if they don't really have a purpose!). ***** to growing up I say

Semion

Hi guys! Finally my Impreza is on the road again! After a mad week spent, I am very happy to see the result. My car specs now are:

JDM Subaru Impreza Spec C 16inch (gravel) 2003

MD321T Billet turbocharger
Hybrid X01R Fmic kit
RCM 80mm mafless Intake trumpet with 170mm K&N filter element
RCM coolant reservoir
Bosch motorsport 1000CC fuel injectors
Manley 92.5mm CR8.5 pistons (2.1 stroker)
Subaru 79mm OE 430 "black" crankshaft
K1 forged 130.5mm rods
ARP 11mm studs
ACL H race series bearings
Tomei poncam type A camshafts
Aeromotive fuel pump
Fujitsubo super Ti catback
Custom 3" downpipe
Subaru group N buffled sump kit
Motec M800 Pnp Advance pack ECU with Knock control module

The mapper did two maps, one for 98 pump fuel (0.6 pounds per a liter here) and 102 race fuel (for sale here in 30liter canisters, the price is about 2,2pounds per a liter). What a ****ty pump fuel we have in Russia! May be just in Moscow you can get some kind of V-power gas, but in Siberia, where do I live, we have only 80,92,95,98 types of fuel, 98 is the best one, but it is not that good.

On a pump fuel we could only enjoy the 1,4 bar from the turbo, but on 102 race fuel I saw 1,87bar at mids and 1,65 at the top! The mapping took whole day, from 10am to 8pm.

The Hybrid fmic worked good, the mapper said it is ok, but he adviced me to stick with the JDM goods, Greddy and Blitz fmics are made better and they perform better he said. It was a extremely hot day, +36C outside, I saw +60C on the intake temp sensor (((. I think I have to open the whole core of the intercooler to let more direct air go in and do
some work with the bumper to improve the fmic perfomance.

What I found after all the job done: The MD321T billet turbo is very very good, it gives so strong power (for a city driving it is a bit overkill, imho, but it is so fun!), and it's drivable, I see 1 bar at the 3500rpm, so I could be fast in a traffic , with the support of 2.1 stroker kit and motec ecu I think I have some better results than Shaun have After measuring the car at the dyno soon, I promice to provide the result paper.

I had to look for OE crankshafts here, two of them what was in stock here were not good, my engine builder said take it back to Subaru parts store, the cranks had some noticable unperfections on the bearing surfaces, they both was brand new, never opened. What a poor quality subaru parts have now! Beware and check everything before using them!

Brothers, I need some help. I want to have 2 gas tanks in my car now. The stock one for a pump fuel, and one small race tank in the trunk for a race fuel. And I wish to have the ability to change fuel types what I wish to use from the cabin. Even if I have to stop the engine to switch the fuel type, it is acceptable. May be someone knows where should I look for and are there any ready kits on the market?

Shaun

Semion,
Glad you got it all sorted.

So with 102octane fuel and bigger capacity engine you have better results than me..... I should ****ing well hope you do!!!!

Just for clarification purposes with regard to your comments (or specifically your mappers) on the Hybrid FMIC. Why would he say this? I take it he measured the actual inlet temps against the charge temps? How else could he come to that statement with any true meaning?

What gear are you seeing 1bar @ 3500rpm? I see 1bar by that in 4th iirc, with 5th/6th seeing 1bar @ 3000rpm.

There could be an element of a heat issue affecting spool, but with your extra capacity I would expect much better results imo.

In the UK there is an abundance of duel tank systems for duel fuel, like petrol and LPG. I wouldn't have thought your requirements would be hard to sort, although I would question the advantage over the cost. Assuming your fuels are rated as ours, 98 Octane is not going to give you a massive performance hit against VPower imo.

If you're going to **** around with fuels you may as well just go for using something like Meth.

johnfelstead

He doesn't know if he has better results Shaun, as he hasnt got any dyno figures.

Boost levels dont tell you what the power will be, so until you have some respresentative figures you dont know anything really.

My 2.1 destroys you both in terms of spool, i get 1 bar at 2800rpm, 1.7BAR at 3500rpm on V-power in 4th, but that doesnt tell you much in terms of overall performance, i'm down on your figures at the moment on v-power. Meth isnt really improving the spool, it just adds about 25BHP/Lbft. Litchfield has done a great job of the top end performance, i just want the holy grail of having spool and top end, it may not be posible to achieve, it's certainly not easy based on what i have seen so far! Still very much work in progress on mine, version 3 due shortly.

With regards to Intercooler performance, it's not an easy thing to quantify without representative back to back testing, mine is very efficient, IC temps only go up 5 degrees C over a full 4th gear pull, and it runs at ambient off load. During sprints my IC temps actually drop 15 degrees during the runs, due to heat soak during the 15 minute queuing with a hot engine bay, (thats with no IC water spray and no shielding on the turbo) on the road it's a superb setup.

Shaun

John,
Can you put that in to context please, with regards to the power you do have at the moment. The last time we spoke your power was only a couple of bhp more than your VF was pumping out.

I can easily beat my current spool by either using the LM420 or even better, the LM400. It's all down to the turbo spec. Something that you're obviously finding out. lol You can't 100% have your cake and eat it.... well not with current specs.

johnfelstead

I know that, which is why i'm trying something different.

As i've said i'm not happy with what i have right now, torque and spool is great and would outdo a VF37 & LM400 as a road turbo in terms of drivability IMHO, but top end is well down on what i want and it has some surge issues that need addressing, so it's not something i can recomend over the litchfield turbos in this spec. personally i see no point in the LM400, it's not worth the expense over a well setup VF37, you lose too much bottom end for the top end gain. The LM450 makes much more sense in terms of £/performance.

We'll see if this is sorted in the next version, if it's not then i'll have to knock it on the head and try something else.

Andy.F

My 2.5 on a 321T with OE headers and TMIC destroys the 3 of you on spool and power!

johnfelstead

lol

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

Think thats what we all want John...

Semion

[quote=Andy.F;10670564]My 2.5 on a 321T with OE headers and TMIC destroys the 3 of you on spool and power![/

Hello, Andy!

Do you use a Meth? If yes, I suppose using of OE TMIC is acceptable, if no I wonder what the intake temperature value on the full boost do you have?

2.5 engines are not popular here, even with the custom made aluminium plates , wich are make the engine block into semi-close deck, they are not that strong as 2.0 .

Just finished my the project, I am starting to look around for some better configuration That's a Subaru sick phenomenum.

Shaun

Yeah, it's called a Billet LM450!

Shaun

You're my hero Andy

Andy.F

I know Shaun

I have 2 maps, one with and one without methanol circa 475bhp and 510bhp which is as far as I would go on an EJ257. I agree the 2.0/2.1 can be more reliable at higher power but for a road car, having full boost from 2600rpm and 500lbft of midrange torque is way more important to me than more top end power.

Charge temps get a bit high at anything over 140mph but as I said earlier, its a road car so very rarely sees that sort of speed.

TimH

iTrader: (11)

Hmmm....having just refitted my freshly repaired and wrapped OEM twinscroll exhaust manifold (pin hole in one of the runners, and poor welds on the up-pipe flange), I thought I would retest spool on my LM480-equipped 2.5l, running VPower+10% meth (which equates to 525bhp and the same torque number). Using Syvecs logs:

6th gear - 1 bar @ 3200 rpm, 1.6 bar @ 3600 rpm
4th gear - 1 bar @ 3600 rpm, 1.6 bar @ 4000 rpm

Think that rather suggests - as has been pointed out to me by a few over the years - that single-scroll is probably a better bet than these high power twinscrolls/twin-entries.

Not going to be changing mine though - spent enough already lol.

Andy.F

I've yet to be impressed by a twin scroll set up in the 420-550bhp range on an Impreza, particularly on a 2.5. They work great for up to 420bhp and the big twisted or front mount Garrett GT series work well in T/S mode at 550+bhp but single scroll seems to have them whipped for the 420-550 range.
Its great that John, Shaun and Harvey are doing a lot of testing on the latest developments, hopefully something good comes of it

Shaun

But the LM's are twin entry not twinscroll..... big difference yes!?

My old 2.5 build on the SPEC C was a single scroll turbo, but I utilised a twin to single up-pipe and the OEM headers. Considering that made 540bhp on VPower, it spooled like a bastid. 1bar well before 3k iirc.

Bob's car is running a very similar spec to my SPEC C, although his is a twin entry LM500. Power is more or less the same (in fact his is slightly more) and spool very similar with Bob making 1bar @ 2700rpm in 6th.

There is nothing wrong with the LM's on a equally well equipped set-up.

TimH

iTrader: (11)

Bob has - and you had, I think? - Cosworth heads and cams though. I'm on stock JDM heads and cams.