EBC Bluestuff v Pagid 4.2.1
02 June 2011, 12:24 PM
#181
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Well, Andy sent me a replacement set of NDX's after i melted the last set at Brands. Was at the Nurburgring this weekend so a good opportunity to give them a good test. Had new brake fluid last week as i'd boiled this at Brands too.
My findings appear to be similar to Ian Godney's customer also running Subaru 4 pots. I noticed that braking on the new pads was ok at slower speeds, but if i used the brakes at higher speeds (>70mph) i was getting judder. I was initially worried that I may have warped my discs after all. Had little choice though, as I was already in Germany by this point (it was braking on the autobahns which clearly showed the judder).
So out onto the ring.... the first two laps i did were about 8-9am, so relatively cool. The judder was still there, and the brakes faded quite quickly too. I pushed on and also had a blueish band on the discs.
Let things cool down and went back on track later in the afternoon. Temp was much higher (ambient air temp of 26-28c). Brakes were much better
It appeared that the mornings heat cycle/abuse had helped. Did two more laps in the evening and had much less fade - and more noticeably - the judder had gone completely. I was pushing the brakes harder in these laps and they seemed to just get better. Was pleased that it prooved my discs are ok.
I only have one issue still - the brakes worked well, but they still appear to be wearing quickly. I haven't had them out the calipers yet to inspect, but there was whiteish flakey bits around the edge of the pad block, similar to what I experienced when they smeared at Brands. Not as bad this time, but I expect thats just because the Ring is less demanding than Brands on brakes, so the temps didn't get as high.
So it seems that after the initial bed in period, the pads work well (in terms of stopping) on WRX 4 pots. But the temperature issue still seems to be a problem. I'll have a better idea once i've got the wheels off and pads removed for inspection.
My findings appear to be similar to Ian Godney's customer also running Subaru 4 pots. I noticed that braking on the new pads was ok at slower speeds, but if i used the brakes at higher speeds (>70mph) i was getting judder. I was initially worried that I may have warped my discs after all. Had little choice though, as I was already in Germany by this point (it was braking on the autobahns which clearly showed the judder).
So out onto the ring.... the first two laps i did were about 8-9am, so relatively cool. The judder was still there, and the brakes faded quite quickly too. I pushed on and also had a blueish band on the discs.
Let things cool down and went back on track later in the afternoon. Temp was much higher (ambient air temp of 26-28c). Brakes were much better
It appeared that the mornings heat cycle/abuse had helped. Did two more laps in the evening and had much less fade - and more noticeably - the judder had gone completely. I was pushing the brakes harder in these laps and they seemed to just get better. Was pleased that it prooved my discs are ok.I only have one issue still - the brakes worked well, but they still appear to be wearing quickly. I haven't had them out the calipers yet to inspect, but there was whiteish flakey bits around the edge of the pad block, similar to what I experienced when they smeared at Brands. Not as bad this time, but I expect thats just because the Ring is less demanding than Brands on brakes, so the temps didn't get as high.
So it seems that after the initial bed in period, the pads work well (in terms of stopping) on WRX 4 pots. But the temperature issue still seems to be a problem. I'll have a better idea once i've got the wheels off and pads removed for inspection.
06 June 2011, 07:20 AM
#185
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I had this PM from a customer the other day running WRX 4 pots and 294mm discs and NDX pads ,
Hi Ian
As promised I thought I'd update you after a trackday at Donington Park on the new disks and pads
I'd already followed your suggested bedding in procedure.
1st session; a steady warm up lap; then gradually increased pace to about 90% full pace; completed 4 laps with no issues.
2nd session; again a steady warm up lap; with slightly more speed and heavier braking, the brakes went through a phase of smooth braking; then some fade; and then into bad vibration. I pitted after 5 laps for an inspection
A noticable 'blueish' band about 20mm wide had formed around the disk surface (in the middle)
3rd and 4th session; of about 6 laps; same problem as before with vibration under braking.
An inspection showed that the 'blueish' band was widening
After much deliberation as to what the problem was;
(including abandoning the trackday because stopping was so unpleasant) I decided to try a few laps with some very late braking (to the point of almost lock up) during the vibration phase, and unexpectadly the vibration gradually stopped.
An inspection revealled that the 'blueish' band was now all the way across the disk!
I came to the conclusion that the brakes wern't properly bedded in and that they like being fully abused to get them performing!
A further 4 sessions of around 8 laps were completed with the brakes performing superbly
What do you think was happening?
Regards, and many thanks
Ps The car's a WRX RA version3; with a standard 275bhp.
Hi Ian
As promised I thought I'd update you after a trackday at Donington Park on the new disks and pads
I'd already followed your suggested bedding in procedure.
1st session; a steady warm up lap; then gradually increased pace to about 90% full pace; completed 4 laps with no issues.
2nd session; again a steady warm up lap; with slightly more speed and heavier braking, the brakes went through a phase of smooth braking; then some fade; and then into bad vibration. I pitted after 5 laps for an inspection
A noticable 'blueish' band about 20mm wide had formed around the disk surface (in the middle)
3rd and 4th session; of about 6 laps; same problem as before with vibration under braking.
An inspection showed that the 'blueish' band was widening
After much deliberation as to what the problem was;
(including abandoning the trackday because stopping was so unpleasant) I decided to try a few laps with some very late braking (to the point of almost lock up) during the vibration phase, and unexpectadly the vibration gradually stopped.
An inspection revealled that the 'blueish' band was now all the way across the disk!
I came to the conclusion that the brakes wern't properly bedded in and that they like being fully abused to get them performing!
A further 4 sessions of around 8 laps were completed with the brakes performing superbly
What do you think was happening?
Regards, and many thanks
Ps The car's a WRX RA version3; with a standard 275bhp.
I am still on the same set up that I had on at Snetterton (your discs + Bluestuffs (as they seem to be fine on the road).
I am currently doing a mammoth shift at work at the moment. (Basically I only have a couple of days off this month), so won't get a chance to try anything out until at least July.
Interesting points & experiences have ben raised though. I'll keep an eye on this thread & update with my findings as soon as I'm able.
Thanks to all those who've posted
09 June 2011, 09:51 PM
#186
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HI All
Thought I'd post my review having switched to Bluestuff approx 10 weeks ago.
Use has included town, motorway, A and B roads and one Bedford autodrome track session.
Car is 05 STI PPP mapped to 330/320 - standard OE discs, gold brembos.
The pads were fitted the day before the trackday so had very little bedding in time (blurb stated they were pre-bedded)
Anyone who knows bedford, knows the long back straight followed by S bend requires you to slow the car from 130 to about 70, braking late.
The pads in my experience were almost faultless. On the road they were quiet, no squeaking, low brake dust, good initial bite from cold and also when at normal operating temps.
On the track, they resisted fade very well. Only towards the end of the evening were they were beginning to show fade, I feel mainly due to me being overly aggressive with the late braking. This issue may be resolved with braided hoses and 5.1
Driving home from the track, the bite was not as good, they felt 'glazed'. However within a couple of days they were back to original bite levels.
At one point on the track I did feel a little judder on braking, and cooled the car down for a couple of laps (thought I had warped the discs). On starting hard driving again they were fine and did not judder again at all.
Perhaps they do need a little bedding in.
For the money, however, these are very hard to beat on the STi Brembo setup. Not sure about the wear yet but happy to use them again as they are so keenly priced. Good work EBC.
Thought I'd post my review having switched to Bluestuff approx 10 weeks ago.
Use has included town, motorway, A and B roads and one Bedford autodrome track session.
Car is 05 STI PPP mapped to 330/320 - standard OE discs, gold brembos.
The pads were fitted the day before the trackday so had very little bedding in time (blurb stated they were pre-bedded)
Anyone who knows bedford, knows the long back straight followed by S bend requires you to slow the car from 130 to about 70, braking late.
The pads in my experience were almost faultless. On the road they were quiet, no squeaking, low brake dust, good initial bite from cold and also when at normal operating temps.
On the track, they resisted fade very well. Only towards the end of the evening were they were beginning to show fade, I feel mainly due to me being overly aggressive with the late braking. This issue may be resolved with braided hoses and 5.1
Driving home from the track, the bite was not as good, they felt 'glazed'. However within a couple of days they were back to original bite levels.
At one point on the track I did feel a little judder on braking, and cooled the car down for a couple of laps (thought I had warped the discs). On starting hard driving again they were fine and did not judder again at all.
Perhaps they do need a little bedding in.
For the money, however, these are very hard to beat on the STi Brembo setup. Not sure about the wear yet but happy to use them again as they are so keenly priced. Good work EBC.
09 June 2011, 10:04 PM
#187
Lightened classic 450-500hp
Ian Godney 335mm discs.
Ian Godney refurbished subaru 4 pots
Braided hoses
Blue stuff NDX
I had judder with DS2500s.
Totaly a heat issue with me. All fine once cooled down
I had judder but it has become far less with the Blue NDX
I have cooked the fluid twice.
The brakes dont feel great I am certain this is the fluid.
Fresh high temp fluid is going in very soon.
I will then give the brakes death and report back.
(I have a feeling after reading peoples bedding in experiences that my judder may well go - I also have a hunch that the NDXs are cleaning off the deposits that the DS2500s left)
Ian Godney 335mm discs.
Ian Godney refurbished subaru 4 pots
Braided hoses
Blue stuff NDX
I had judder with DS2500s.
Totaly a heat issue with me. All fine once cooled down
I had judder but it has become far less with the Blue NDX
I have cooked the fluid twice.
The brakes dont feel great I am certain this is the fluid.
Fresh high temp fluid is going in very soon.
I will then give the brakes death and report back.
(I have a feeling after reading peoples bedding in experiences that my judder may well go - I also have a hunch that the NDXs are cleaning off the deposits that the DS2500s left)
10 June 2011, 11:01 AM
#188
HI All
Thought I'd post my review having switched to Bluestuff approx 10 weeks ago.
Use has included town, motorway, A and B roads and one Bedford autodrome track session.
Car is 05 STI PPP mapped to 330/320 - standard OE discs, gold brembos.
The pads were fitted the day before the trackday so had very little bedding in time (blurb stated they were pre-bedded)
Anyone who knows bedford, knows the long back straight followed by S bend requires you to slow the car from 130 to about 70, braking late.
The pads in my experience were almost faultless. On the road they were quiet, no squeaking, low brake dust, good initial bite from cold and also when at normal operating temps.
On the track, they resisted fade very well. Only towards the end of the evening were they were beginning to show fade, I feel mainly due to me being overly aggressive with the late braking. This issue may be resolved with braided hoses and 5.1
Driving home from the track, the bite was not as good, they felt 'glazed'. However within a couple of days they were back to original bite levels.
At one point on the track I did feel a little judder on braking, and cooled the car down for a couple of laps (thought I had warped the discs). On starting hard driving again they were fine and did not judder again at all.
Perhaps they do need a little bedding in.
For the money, however, these are very hard to beat on the STi Brembo setup. Not sure about the wear yet but happy to use them again as they are so keenly priced. Good work EBC.
Thought I'd post my review having switched to Bluestuff approx 10 weeks ago.
Use has included town, motorway, A and B roads and one Bedford autodrome track session.
Car is 05 STI PPP mapped to 330/320 - standard OE discs, gold brembos.
The pads were fitted the day before the trackday so had very little bedding in time (blurb stated they were pre-bedded)
Anyone who knows bedford, knows the long back straight followed by S bend requires you to slow the car from 130 to about 70, braking late.
The pads in my experience were almost faultless. On the road they were quiet, no squeaking, low brake dust, good initial bite from cold and also when at normal operating temps.
On the track, they resisted fade very well. Only towards the end of the evening were they were beginning to show fade, I feel mainly due to me being overly aggressive with the late braking. This issue may be resolved with braided hoses and 5.1
Driving home from the track, the bite was not as good, they felt 'glazed'. However within a couple of days they were back to original bite levels.
At one point on the track I did feel a little judder on braking, and cooled the car down for a couple of laps (thought I had warped the discs). On starting hard driving again they were fine and did not judder again at all.
Perhaps they do need a little bedding in.
For the money, however, these are very hard to beat on the STi Brembo setup. Not sure about the wear yet but happy to use them again as they are so keenly priced. Good work EBC.
Glazing may be as a result of the plain OEM discs, dimpled or grooved discs would help avoid that. Pads do need bedding in, despite being pre-scorched.
FREE Delivery on EBC Bluestuff NDX Pads
10 June 2011, 12:41 PM
#189
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But then Andy @ EBC said the copper in the NDXs melts at > 1083c, so they were hot! Changed the fluid before the Nurburgring, and went with the Millers Racing high temp stuff. After a few laps of the Ring, pedal feels different now again, so i might have cooked that too!
The new NDXs i used at the Ring started to smear as well - not as bad as the photos i put up earlier in the thread of my first set, but still noticable. Couple of cracks down the centre of the pad blocks too.
Think i need some APs!
Last edited by Steve_PPP; 10 June 2011 at 12:43 PM.
10 June 2011, 05:22 PM
#190
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race cars wont cook the fluid that quickly..........
it is simply the massive over-heating of the pad material that transfers the temp into the fluid....
alyn
it is simply the massive over-heating of the pad material that transfers the temp into the fluid....
alyn
10 June 2011, 06:41 PM
#191
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I'm amazed how easy it was to cook the brake fluid. I was using Motul RBF600 for my track day at Brands and when it came out, the stuff that been in the braided hoses (nearest front calipers) had actually started to turn a blackish colour where it had been so hot
But then Andy @ EBC said the copper in the NDXs melts at > 1083c, so they were hot! Changed the fluid before the Nurburgring, and went with the Millers Racing high temp stuff. After a few laps of the Ring, pedal feels different now again, so i might have cooked that too!
The new NDXs i used at the Ring started to smear as well - not as bad as the photos i put up earlier in the thread of my first set, but still noticable. Couple of cracks down the centre of the pad blocks too.
Think i need some APs!
But then Andy @ EBC said the copper in the NDXs melts at > 1083c, so they were hot! Changed the fluid before the Nurburgring, and went with the Millers Racing high temp stuff. After a few laps of the Ring, pedal feels different now again, so i might have cooked that too!
The new NDXs i used at the Ring started to smear as well - not as bad as the photos i put up earlier in the thread of my first set, but still noticable. Couple of cracks down the centre of the pad blocks too.
Think i need some APs!
11 June 2011, 04:01 PM
#193
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Thanks Alyn, I may give the PF RH665 a try, although the wet boiling point of SRF still appears to be far higher at 270 degC...
Last edited by popeyedoyle; 11 June 2011 at 11:08 PM.
11 June 2011, 07:54 PM
#194
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if your relying on the wet boiling point you have major problems...........LOL
comments & feedback so far includes - sharper responce, better modulation, and easier release after locking
alyn
comments & feedback so far includes - sharper responce, better modulation, and easier release after locking
alyn
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