SirFozzalot

How many FWD Supercars are there out there? If it was so good, why aren't Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti etc. all using it?

My point is that your "All new Renault" is only as good as other manufacturers cars that have been around for years AWD or not!

You think the current performance of the Renault is amazing, we've had that performance for years......welcome to our world!

Anyway, you should be thanking the innovative manufacturers like Subaru and Mitsubishi etc. for pushing the envelope all those years ago that are forcing the "lesser" companies to catch up with the rest of us.

Nurse Gladys

enough said!!

scooby seb

iTrader: (1)

i actualy heard ford and citroen are thinking of scrapping AWD in WRC as is just pointless!!!

FWD is the way forward.................thats it

conrod

Thanks again. You have just confirmed what I've been saying all along.

I'm not selling FWD as the ultimate way ahead.

Mit and Subaru had a great contribution but you can't live in the past forever and AWD in the current crop of stuff coming off the line is looking very compromised in the performance/price dept compared to FWD.

You can bang on all day about how your tuned 360 Bhp 2000 Scoob will perform against the new Megane 250, but your price equivalent 2010 Subaru's dont really cut it anymore. FWD suspension technology has moved on, particularly with standard fit LSDs.

conrod

AWD in WRC is the only way. Agreed.

Does that then mean it's the best way for everything?

Remove the blinkers.

conrod

It was only a more extreme reply to the original PPP comparison.

Wasn't the PPP about £27K new at the time? The R500 is a good price comparison.

You want to define the rules or not?

scooby seb

iTrader: (1)

i did remove the blinkers when i bout AWD so i could see round bends unlike in front wheel drive where you only look straight as you don't want to see the tree as it's coming threw your drivers door

sorry just a bit of jesting

no AWD is'nt the bee all and end all but they have got a much better weight distribution and all the power is not going threw the steered wheels there for being a much better balanced car??

belliott69

iTrader: (3)

i've been watching this and sitting back but i've got to say something now, fwd may have moved on but its still not going to match an awd car of the same year, do you think subaru created it in 1992 and said that'll do lets use that for nearly 20 years, no it gets improved each time. also 22k for a renault who have one of the worst reliabilty records standard and can only be worked on in garages with the exact right tools because they make every nut and bolt innaccsesable to normal tools, no thanks i'll stick to my classic that'll never cost as much as a lifetime of dealer trips in the renault and the emmbarrasment of looking like a middle aged man trying to regain his youthful days of hot hatches.

conrod

Better weight distribution? Possibly, depends on what decide to pop down the back in a FWD. More weight? - Deffo in AWD. Lower C of G? depends on where you put the FWD mass.

AWD a more balanced car? Well depends where and when you make the balanced judgement. Through the twisty bits, under braking/accel, dynamically switching the loading?

It is easy to confuse Balanced (the usual AWD comment) with Inert without considering Dynamic.

conrod

Well the only price comparable thing in 2010 that Subaru has to offer is: the WRX. Slower, blunter and less circuit pace.

It can go across a muddy field though, so I will give you that.

SirFozzalot

Ok so you reckon the current FWD's are as good as AWD's....what about in all weathers? Still as good?

Nurse Gladys

I think we all know the answer to that...

Someone arriving home after the December Lodge meet!!

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

We got home fine........

















































Altho we were in the Kuga.......

conrod

Have a read of the thread. I only lobbed it in after Mav STI used the predictable ***** waving comment that his old £28K (at the time) tuned Scoob would do the business against a 2010 £22K hatch. Well done. Surprised it took that long to surface.

Your chap on here, Budgie popped over to the Megane site and his first post was 'shall we meet at Brands then'. Too prove what? A 460 Bhp Tein fettled Scoob is faster than a 250 Bhp Megane - Yes. A Megane R26R is faster than a stock 2007 WRX? - Yes. How about this factory built Megane Trophy being faster than Budgies Scoob around the Indy?:



Are we talking about stock family cars, or tuned kit, or stuff in the same price bracket. Tell you what - have a think and let me know what rules suit you best.

belliott69

iTrader: (3)

you say its comparable but price wise its cheaper £17,995 compared to what has been said of £22k and like everyone says fwd great in the dry, bu if its damp or wet its as usefull as a chocalate fire guard so you have to drive at half its capabilities.

yellowvanman

You do like to slant and twist things to suit don't you.

That was not Budgies first post, and neither was it aimed at a Megane, in fact it was aimed at another MSnet member ***** waving a gt3 on your behalf.

conrod

You need to be more specific mate.

A Range Rover is better than a Megane off-road. Is that the answer you want?

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

erm i personally think Snow was top of his list.

conrod

Very true, and no ***** waving from me. The invite was still there though and the intention was clear.

V4JDMSTi

iTrader: (2)

I'd like to point out I've been around Brands with Budgie and an F430 had to move out of the way because he was holding Budgie up oiut of clearways.

We can all make comparisons. Just like the tw@t 18 year old in his chaved up 1.2 corsa that thinks "he done me". When in truth I just can't be ar$ed to waste petrol showing him something that I already know and he obviously doesn't yet.

I propose the following:

Car suggestion:

Price has to be sub £35k (mark out of 10 for initial cost)
Non Modified (mark out of 10 for handling, performance etc)
Modifying potential (mark out of 10)
Insurance cost (Mark out of 10)
Road Tax (mark out of 10)
Practicality (mark out of 10)
Future value after 3 years (mark out of 10)
Chav Potential (mark out of 10)
Cult Status (mark out of 10)
Build quality (mark out of 10)

Total out of 100.

If more than one person completes the above for a car we'll take the average. Highest score wins. Conrod point some other lovers of cars made out of plastic and tin foil in this direction and get them to honestly join in

yellowvanman

Indeed, you suggested that there were no decent cars over here, your mate ***** waved, Budgie just suggested that out on track the bullsh!t stops. Simple, put up or shut up.

conrod

Again, you are right enough. My own comment was based on the fact that I have been privaliged enough to own some fine kit in my time - and I usually keep that low key. Apologies.

For me on the track though, the bull**** doesnt stop with just a £ budget. I can pop down to Time Attack to see how the £££ can swing things.

The real 'put up and shut up' for me comes down to the driving and driver.

Who would impress most at Brands? The most power or the most skill on circuit?

V4JDMSTi

iTrader: (2)

You should join us on one of out monthly karting meets

yellowvanman

Agreed, having been very involved with Time attack for a few years I am very aware of the effects of budget.

Yes your are prob right, though it is difficult to to have a genuinely even machinery situation to compare drivers skills, Karting is good, but the comparative low power does bias this towards the lighter driver.

The funny thing is, through all this my *****'s bigger than yours, virtually all the cars mentioned are in fact cracking cars, and would all be great 'FUN' to drive regardless of which one was actually the ultimate fastest one.

conrod

Weve all been stuck behind kit on circuit that is either going faster than it should or much slower. A good spread of valid Lap times is the best benchmark, not the 'I wasted a Lambo' type comparisons.

Amusing competition. Want to set the price limit at £22K?

Also, I reckon a Caterham for example would do surprisingly well. OK, a bomb out on Praticality and Chav potential but the rest of the points would flood in.

conrod

Agree. I also think, particularly on circuit, no matter what car it is, with a bit of experience you can see who the better drivers are. Watching how they get them into that sweet spot of slip, keeping it balanced and flowing, running good lines etc

There are some good race series with reasonable level playing fields that will ballast out for driver mass and keep a fairly good control on the regs.

Take 10 Power and Mod hungry drivers off the snet here and shove them into the Caterham Academy's relatively level racing playing field would be an interesting experience.

WRX_Dazza

shame this didn't happen earlier when EB30 had his car !!! hahahahhaha

that would have set the cat amongst pigeons

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

If you set the price @ £22k that rules the arguing cars out dont it?

53

iTrader: (41)

Bogger Cup 250 is £22,467.29p the 29p being the standard styling pack

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

did they spend that much on styling then Stu?