WRX_Rich

iTrader: (5)

i did wonder how long it would take

watching with interest on turbo choice

STI Glenn

Out of interest what is cryogenic component treatment

trails

iTrader: (41)

components are frozen using a specific process that makes them stronger...been a round a while but not used by that many people. Interested to find more about it myself, so shall wait with interest for further details from Bob

Bob Rawle

Hi Rich, you know me too well, turbo choice will be the subject of some investigation and research and happy to share that with you as I do it, what works for me will work for you. Cryogenic treatment as trails states is used to improve component strength but in addition it adds wear resistance and more importantly in a 2.5 lump normalises the block to minimise distortion potential, one of the main causes of heavy oil consumption is block distortion. So this build will visit all the avenues available to minimise/eliminate that whilst providing for a strong enough configuration to withstand decent boost without having piston problems. Also there is the small matter of keeping the heads nailed to the block !! At the moment block, rods, pistons/rings are the components being considered for the cryo.

cheers

bob

STI Glenn

Thanks Bob where is it available to buy from

WRX_Rich

iTrader: (5)

Hi Bob

hows the project going

nullfork

Hi Bob,

Nice project, I notice you put the ILFR7H's in there; are you still gapping them to 0.65mm?

PeterStone

iTrader: (1)

Is this still being updated?

PeteS

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Seems to be the wisdom of the masses too

TX.

Bob Rawle

Right time to bring this back up to the surface.

The engine is built !! What started as a short block project has morphed into a complete long engine. I decided to do the heads as well as the short block (would have been rude not to).

So we have in brief ...

Fully closed deck 2.5 litre block
MY2010 nitrided crank
Mahle low silicon pistons
Uprated bearings
Carillo rods (need to check thats what ended up going in though)
12mm oil pump
14mm stud kit
Cosworth full spec heads
Cosworth 278 cams
Big valves
Double valve springs
Titanium valve gear

8.7/8.8 to 1 compression ratio to provide a really crisp response.

Clutch will be an Exedy twin plate which Mark at Lateral has supplied.

Exhaust .... boring but I will stick to the system I designed with Janspeed in 2003, its only available from RCM these days. So well proven to do what its supposed to and only measured 89 db fitted to the STi 5.

Catch can will be the latest RCM kit which will fit in perfectly.

The rest will transfer over as is for now, so std turbo, injectors etc all on to start with, that will allow me to run it in comfortably and just see if I can squeeze a decent figure out of it before I change things. I think that the twin scroll option will be the right ultimate turbo choice.

I will post the full spec up once its all in and running.

The cryogenic treatment, whilst expensive, was well worth the investment, the block moved significantly, now that its been subsequently machined and blueprinted its spot on, the block has been line bored and piston matched, its great to know that it will all stay put in use.

The engine swap will take place next week while I am mapping in Slovenia, so I am looking forward to tweaking things when I get back, even if I will be running in.

Thats it for now, its taken some time to get to this point, the engine has been assembled by Paul Finch of Finch Motorsport and his attention to detail has been superb, the project has aligned with Iain Litchfield's Type 25 new spec builds and thats enabled things to be done in a way which would otherwise have been cost prohibitive especially the block machining to achieve the closed deck spec. Parts have been supplied by RCM, Lateral Performance and Litchfield Imports.

cheers, obviously lots more to come and more detail to add.

bob

STI Glenn

I was wondering what was happening ,glad it is coming along

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

Subscribed, keep up the good work Bob

Bob Rawle

Dropped the car off today, was good to see the new engine sat waiting. Had a bit of a mapping job to do while there (actually a car with the twin of my engine in it running a LT500 turbo) which took some time due to fog, minus three degrees and having to guess what the traffic in front was doing. If mine is as silky as this then its really something to look forward to, even with the cams the car drove very smoothly and could be manoeuvred on the idle only. Turbo spool was amazing, clearly a very well balanced (turbine to compressor) unit.

By the time we had finished that work had already commenced on mine and half the engine bay had been emptied.

Hopefully I will be picking up on Saturday and then I have some miles to do.

cheers

bob

tempop1

Im definitely glad that i went 2.5. Wish i w=could ahve afforded to build it to the same spec as yours. Maybe some day. Cant wait to see the results bob

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

Is Paul fitting your engine as well?

Bob Rawle

Hi Iain, no Paul has just done the engine build, he could have done though.

cheers

bob

Bob Rawle

Update ... original engine out and the ancillary swap is well under way, couple of niggles have appeared, oil feed line for turbo/avcs isn't compatible with the new heads , need the later MY07 one (mine is a MY06). Secondary air control system will have to be binned (not really a problem as it was always going to go) since the Cosworth heads do not have the required ports to use it.

that aside all going to plan

cheers

bob

stevie1982

iTrader: (16)

hi bob

can i ask as i am sure others are intrigued to know, what is the cost to do this?
as by all accounts the 2.5 block can be weak and as you say not stay put, do you have any web links to the company you have used etc

thanks

and look forward to seeing the development of this, top stuff as normal

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Bring it over to Germany and really stretch its legs Bob, remap it on the autobahn near me like we do mine.

You are always welcome to pop over, accomadation is no problem as you already know

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

^^ that sounds like fun !!

Bob Rawle

The cost I can't quantify right now in all honesty, but a customer cost will come out of it and I will post it when its been quantified, there has been so much change along the route I sort of lost track v

The block development has come about through Litchfield Imports Type 25 iterative work, my engine was built with two of their customer engines and in this way we kept the associated costs within manageable bounds, to machine a single block and convert it to closed deck would be very expensive.

Likewise the cryogenic treatment, it did, however, cost more to correct the block distortion after the treatment than the actual treatment itself, I shudder to think what would have happened to it without this process.

Steve I think the Autobahn option sounds like intense fun, and with the prospect of more of last visits hospitality being available wild horses won't stop me, as you mention mapping on the Autobahn has certain advantages

As to whose doing what: -

Paul Finch assembled the engine and heads and sorted out all the post cryo machine work needed.

Iain Litchfield sorted out the block and has supplied most of the engine components including a set of blueprinted Cosworth heads (blue printed at Swindon Racing Engines). He has also carried out the engine swap and transfer of the engine ancillary parts.

Mark at Lateral has supplied the cams for the engine and the twin plate clutch.

RCM have supplied the exhaust system and the catch can system plus the 14mm head stud conversion plus the dowel kit etc.

I am sure if anyone is really keen to follow this track then it can all be replicated. Most of it will manifest in the latest Litchfield Type 25 spec engines. As you can see it could be a drive in drive out solution.

The object of this thread is to keep everyone posted with the what, when, how and why and to then document the progression. Hopefully that will provide some concrete information to help individuals to make their choices.

Its a minefield and the 2.5 engine is not the easiest solution to high power for a variety of reasons but this build is intended to address most if not all and achieve a reliable mid (ish) 500 bhp solution on V power with 600 bhp (ish) achieved using meth.

Have decided to ultimately go for twin scroll on the turbo front by the way.

best regards

bob

deanb1980

wow total dedication and hard work fair play to you i am following this thread . very interesting although mine is a 2.0 i will defo be speaking to you in the future my friends have high regards for your work. good luck and of course keep us posted on the final findings and costs

Bob Rawle

Thanks Dean, well unfortunately she is still not a runner, discovered that the oil feed pipe to the turbo used with the Cosworth heads is different to the Euro heads being USDM based. So needed to get a new one from Subaru, three attempts at the correct part number and each time they sent the same (wrong) part, last attempt to get the right one culminated in a before 09:00 delivery on sat ... still incorrect.

Since I am away all next week tuning in Portugal it will be next Friday when I get to collect. Ill wind as they say but at least it allows a bit more time to complete everything. We reckoned 3 hours work and she would be running. So currently driving a bit of a "lads" car ... JDM spec Civic Type r running circa 250 bhp, wheel spin ... this car invented it !!! Its a real hoot, forgotten what it was like to pilot a front wheel drive car around a roundabout using the throttle only until I drove this.

Just back from Darlington where we recovered from last weeks bad weather and have now caught up on the mapping backlog.

Will be up there again 29th/30th December for two days mapping if anyone would like to take advantage and give themselves (well their car) a great start to the new year.

cheers

bob

dbrad

iTrader: (26)

Good luck with the build bob, be great to see 700bhp!!

nelio

Hope you Have spent a very good time here in Portugal With Pedro and Jorge.

Great to know your new machine is on the move to great performances!

Best Regards from Madeira Island!

Merry Christmas and Happy new year!

Bob Rawle

Hi Nelio, yes a very good last trip of the year, looking forward to my next trip to see you all there. I don't need to ask if a good time was had over Xmas and the New Year Madeira is spectacular to say the least and this time of the year is, in my view, an unbeatable place to be to celebrate.

all the best

bob

Bob Rawle

The problem of the oil pipe eventually got sorted and I collected the car on Xmas Eve, the drive back to Swindon was spent sense checking everything and testing the feel of the engine. Rather than just ramble on about things I'll try and take things in some sort of logical progression. I have a full engine blueprint specification which is in written form, not electronic, and will extract pertinent detail from that. I also have a limited number of pics, I am still waiting for the pics taken of the build etc.

The car has covered 960 miles since I collected it and is now off the bedding in oil and has "proper" semi synthetic oil in it.

All I can say for now is , it really does want to go.

It will probably appear to some that I am detailing "the obvious" but I will do that so those that have not done something like this before will hopefully get helped by information that a lot of us take for granted.

Coincidentally I received a further Race Rom beta this evening with updated patch files so I can add some comment relating to that as well, given we are getting very close to the release date then some intensive testing and use will help and I will be at enough miles to do some proper testing again very soon.

More tomorrow

cheers all

bob

Shaun

Bob,
If your engine set-up goes anywhere near as well as a similar spec did in my Spec C.... you will love it! With those Cossie heads / cams in, it will want to breathe for England.

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

"Swing low, Sweet chariot"........

Bob Rawle

Shaun you are spot on, already the head/cam setup is demonstrating significant improvement, at idle the engine is consuming twice the air it was before, for example. The standard turbo spools instantly.

Engine started as a new MY2010 short engine from Subaru, the block and crank were retained, everything else was set aside.

Block: - semi closed deck block modified to fully closed deck by inset plate.
Crank: - Subaru nitrided crank
Pistons: - Mahle low silicon
Main bearings: - ACL
Big end bearings: - Mahle
Rods: - Cosworth heavy duty
Head studs: - RCM 14,mm head stud/sleeve conversion

The key parts were cryogenically treated to stress relieve, toughen and stabilise.

Heads: - Cosworth full specification heads blue printed by Swindon Racing Engines in addition.
Cams: - Inlet 278, Exhaust 274
Vernier pulleys installed to the exhaust cams
Valves: - Inlet and exhaust Cosworth big valve specification
Springs: - Cosworth double valve springs
Retainers etc: - Cosworth Titanium set.

The head/cam specification should allow a much higher rev limit to be used, I will start at an 8000 rpm limit initially.

Head gasket: - Cosworth 1.1 mm thickness

Oil pump: - Cosworth 12mm

Cam belt: - Cosworth kevlar belt, new idle tensioner fitted

After cryogenic treatment the block had moved and so the crank journals were line bored, pistons were bore matched.

Compression ratio's calculate out as follows: -

Cylinder 1: - 8.83
Cylinder 2: - 8.84
Cylinder 3: - 8.89
Cylinder 4: - 8.88

Standard EJ257 STi specification compression is 8.2, the above have created a very crisp and responsive engine which should be capable of accepting decent ignition timing to mitigate EGT's.

The secondary air system has been removed since the Cosworth heads used did not have the ports to accommodate it.

Everything else was transferred over from the original engine so it is currently using the standard injectors and fuel system with the VF43 turbo. The original airbox is also being used fitted with an STi panel filter currently.

Additional to this the engine is connected to the RCM "Track Attack" oil catch can, the PCV has been removed and the inlet manifold blanked, the catch can drain is fed back into the sump.

The exhaust is now the system that I designed in conjunction with Janspeed in 2003 which is the basis for the RCM "Team Ice" system, I have always used it fully resonated, this does not reduce its capability in any way. To install the rear diffuser had to be modified for clearance, that aside it was a simple fit.

The clutch is an Exedy Hyper Twin, whilst this would ultimately probably struggle on the drag strip for fast road and track use it is ideal. Notwithstanding the characteristic rattle when you depress the clutch its driving as well as the stock clutch, a bit more aggressive but just as easy to use. The noise is diminishing with use, mapped a car today fitted with one that had a few thousand miles use and the noise was barely discernable. It is necessary to remove the internal return valve from the slave cylinder when using this clutch, easy to do.

ECU: - factory ecu currently using modified standard rom code, next week will hopefully see an 80% full fat map in it as the miles increase but, to be honest, its probably ready for it right now. Once thats done then I will apply the Race Rom patch and set things up properly ...

Thats it in essence, of course it all now has to be made to work together to produce a result.

I will pause for breath here, still waiting pictures of the build, but I do have a few that I will try and put up.

cheers

Bob