Splitpin

Anycockldooooo? Are you talking about chickens, or Essex girls?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

coffee over monitor

Alan Jeffery

Not if it attacks humans!

And all the girls tell me that...

And I'm struggling to recall a topic that went further off course..

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Remind me to stay clear of your **** when I come down

Tidgy

wtf???

where has this topic gone????????


rafpmsl, thats some funny shizz

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Well I certainly don't want to be roped in as one of those.
Yep, I registered seperate business as a sole trader with HMRC.
Complete a SA for this additional self-employment over/above my Full time PAYE.
Paid 40% Tax on Polar Profits.
Also pay additional Class 2 NI Contibutions
VAT Reg not required as earning from Polar do/did not exceed limits.

One reason for quiting was due to now having to pay 40% Tax, rather then the previous years 20%. I was running out of enthusiasm anyway, without the tax man wanting another 20% cut for 2008/2009 period.

Although I stopped earning from Polar in Sept/Oct 2009, the Business will finally be wound up April 2010 to tie up with financial period end.

scoobiewrx555

You mean you didn't hear the one about the 3 gay cockerels

English one goes.... "Cockadoodledooo"
Scottish one goes..... "Doodlecockadoooo"
Irish one goes..... "Anycockeldoooo"

Don't start on me about racist Irish jokes, i love Irish people

Mus

iTrader: (2)

Lol

Splitpin

Seeing as you've raised the point, and built an inference into it, do all EcuTeK agents run a "genuine business", limited company/TA, audited accounts and a VAT number? Are these part of TeK's qualifying requirements for an agency, and if so are they applied rigidly and without exception?

Andy.F

They are certainly all visible here - "EcuTek only sells its ECU tuning software to commercial tuning companies around the world" These are listed here"
EcuTek Google Dealer Map

Every single licence issued by Ecutek is recorded and traceable and must be accounted for.


Its certainly tougher to do it all legally Scott but you have my respect for doing it right.
I wonder how many of the part time OS mappers share your ethical approach ?? It seems to have gone all off-topic all of a sudden

scotty44

iTrader: (12)

It was good to meet you too Duncan, 1st of many im sure hope the cold has gone now

I didn't post this to start a war between EcuTek and OS mappers but im glad I did because it has given me and im sure many others the info I/others were lacking between the two

Can I just say thank you to everyone that has put input in this thread

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Yeah the cold has gone - killed it off with plentiful alcohol over the new year period whilst reading the entertaining posts on here

See you soon.

scoobiewrx555

I think it's true to say that OS mappers,like EcuTek mappers, serious about remapping, in it for the long term and doing it full time will have Trader/Product/Liability insurance covered and offer a no quibble guarantee on their work. As such their customers can rest easy that they are not going to be stung as a result of bad workmanship or unwanted results one way or another.

Being a sole trader or partnership doesn't make you any more of a risk than being a limited company either. Anybody can set up a limited company and do a moonlit flit leaving tens, hundreds and sometimes thousands of people in the lurch one day (as has happened so many times before) and set up the next day under another guise.

Being a Limited company doesn't make you bona fide or a better mapper.

Andy.F

Who said anything about limited company ? Registered tax paying business would be a start !!

scoobiewrx555

Having had a quick look at the EcuTek UK dealer list the majority are Limited companies.

madscanman2

i was messing about , and pic ended up on here , if u do nt like your colours then change your flag . i think personally they that pass though 15 safe countries to get to ours ? , and claim off the state are no use , and if you dont agree i respect it, i ll put one on of captain hook if u wont , am non partasian as i am free to think what i like . i never got what that hate preacher s has when i was in jail , he got 7yrs i got 5 yr and only enterd a building , but i loved it , was like army camp but worst , i try d to go to boot camp as it halved your time but am banned from fire arms for life , so never made it , well my reply was as interesting as your s , just . i would not let u have my bait as am a fat **** , tamal tigers , no anc , stay cool . ur dislexic parasite pest , ha, be luckly

Splitpin

Anyone translate please?

scoobiewrx555

Hold on.. let me get my intergalactic translator on............*&"£!%$%$*+**^&$%^%

He say he not a racist and take no sides even though he spend time at her majesty's pleasure it not make him bad man.

A combination of heart drugs, late night and severe dyslexia culminates in a language more complex than Clingon!!

Oh yeah.....And he likes you too

ride5000

so to get back on topic, of all the folks proclaiming OS inferiority, how many of them are licensed ecutek dealers?

does this strike any else as a conflict of interest?

i see a lot of the same arguments that were leveled at the UTEC some 6-7 years ago when it provided a user tunable solution, contrary to the unichip/ecutek approach--basically, anyone can call themselves a tuner, cars are going to be blowing up left and right, there's no professionalism, etc.

how did that turn out?

Andy.F

All of them I would expect, as such they are in a good position to compare, they have full availability of both software systems including all the latest updates.

How do you think that has come about ?

I would certainly hope so however....

^^^I never did get any answer to this from the OS guys^^^


So to identify where the OS (not my quote) "cowboy image" comes from, how many OS mappers do we have on here that are....

1- Full time tuners.
2- Operating a bona fide tuning business.
3- Provide proper back up (premises?)
4- Fully Insured for the tuned vehicle and public liability ?
5- Known to the Inland Revenue

A quick look down the Ecutek list suggests over 90% would comply with all 5. Pretty good odds, so that could certainly go some way to explaining their good reputation.


This is what Ecutek have to say about their dealers, is there anything like this regulation or commitment to ongoing training etc with open source ?

EcuTek's Relationship to its Tuners Partners
EcuTek only sells it's ECU tuning software to commercial tuning companies around the world. These are listed here. Whilst EcuTek tools make tuning the Impreza quicker, easier and more successful than was previously possible, it is still a significant undertaking to become proficient in the use of these tools. Every EcuTek tuning partner must do this, and we offer training to all of our partners, both before and after they purchase the product.

The first time an EcuTek tuning partner tunes a particular car using the tools, a small license fee is paid to EcuTek. Contrary to what many people would have you believe, this fee is small, and is similar to the cost of a ROM board used to plug new chips into earlier vehicles. This license fee contributes to the ongoing development and support of EcuTek's products, as well as ongoing training and regular information and feature updates to our tuning partners. As a result of this, EcuTek's success is directly linked to the number of vehicles successfully tuned by its partners:


EcuTek regularly update their tuning partners with support for new ECUs as they are released.
EcuTek also update the tuning tools with suggestions from their customers. Suggestions that either provide more features to the end customer or that make the product quicker, easier and more effective.
When a tuning company purchases EcuTek tools, it is not the end of their contact with EcuTek - it is the beginning.
EcuTek supply their tuning partners with tuning examples for various engine configurations, as well as providing ongoing telephone and email support to it's partners, should they encounter any problems whilst tuning a customer car.
EcuTek invest significant time and effort supporting their partners - something that is only viable when each tuning partner is going to tune large numbers of cars. This is why EcuTek do not sell their tuning tools to the public - the cost of training a new user only becomes cost effective when that user has the correct background (so will learn quickly) and will tune many cars using the knowledge and experience that they attain from EcuTek.

fireblade37

iTrader: (1)

The first time an EcuTek tuning partner tunes a particular car using the tools, a small license fee is paid to EcuTek. Contrary to what many people would have you believe, this fee is small

Is that the small licence fee the customer has to pay for the first remap?
Think i paid £700 and £230 for further adjustments/tweak. To me that's an expensive licence fee?

£700 - £230 =

Mus

iTrader: (2)

I don't really want take sides but every one has to start somwhere. Just been doing some Reasearch the stock Subaru ecu can run up to 700bhp with cobra mass flow meter a lot of guys from America are running big power with stock ecus

scoobiewrx555

Andy F said......... So to identify where the OS (not my quote) "cowboy image" comes from, how many OS mappers do we have on here that are....

1- Full time tuners.
2- Operating a bona fide tuning business.
3- Provide proper back up (premises?)
4- Fully Insured for the tuned vehicle and public liability ?
5- Known to the Inland Revenue

I'd love to answer all 5 of your questions but not being an authorised trader precludes me from doing so.

Andy F said....... All of them I would expect, as such they are in a good position to compare, they have full availability of both software systems including all the latest updates.

Do EcuTek encourage their dealers to compare EcuTek alongside OS? I thought this was something frowned upon by EcuTek being one of their big taboo's.

Bob Rawle

Finally got back to this thread despite the "slight" off topic movement.

Splitpin like Andy I charge the same price for a remap whichever of the many EcuTek software programs I use to do it be that a MY99 Impreza or an Evo.

The Flash99 software in public dealer form hasn't changed much for some time apart from me requesting it be updated to accomodate the ever growing list of Leggy B4 roms. EcuTek have supported me in particular, I think, in that respect as I have already described.

There are numerous exposed B4 maps that I can access but they are just maps, its not been possible to track down the exact function due to focus elsewhere. I have managed to identify those that are useful.

Due to the quirky nature of the Jecs ecu they are actually more difficult to map and achieve a consistently performing solution, its fueling based self defense knock compensation strategy, for example, is a nightmare and always catch's out the inexperienced user. The solution was relatively straightforward but the identification and confirmation of that solution took some time. I am still not certain that there are many tuners who have that under control.

Also there is more risk to programming a Jecs, so a spare ecu is always in the footwell when I map "just in case". It can be very interferance prone when flashing.

I agree that different software programmers may interpret code in a somewhat different fashion and so report a numerical difference to the user interface.

Given consistent use of one or the other then, as you say, that "should not" be a real issue, but I was refering more to "technical trust" rather than absolute numbers.
Given the interactive complexities of the firmware then the assessment by a tuner of the interactions on which he bases his tuning decisions stems from that information. My philosophy is, and always will be, to fully understand the market that I work in and what my threats and opportunity's might be.

Clearly open source software, being "free" offers an individual the ability to undercut my costs, and no business person should overlook any opportunity to strengthen his/her position. But cost is only one aspect of business life and technical integrety with confidence in the tools used, takes a far higher priority.
For me the open source software means I have the same opportunity as an open source mapper to access another ecu and read the rom out, including of course all the open source mapped ones.

I have been and am very open when discussing things relating with EcuTek, given the security headaches open source has given them they are usually glad of any freely given input in this repect.

The security system that EcuTek have employed to protect themselves and their dealers means that a competitor has difficulty acessing and using anothers work.
I consider each map I do my IP, not anyone elses, I assume you would also direct the security "challenge" to companies like Motec, Simtek and any other aftermarket ecu company that offers password protection and ecu locking ?

Motec dealers can force a situation where the only way to access an ecu that a particular tuner has mapped is to send it back to Motec for wiping clean !!! At least and ecutek dealer is able to "unlock" an ecu and allow it to continue to function. Its not a dealer choice though, its the way the software works. I am sure open source tuners would take advantage of a security system to protect their work as well given it was available. The software can be open source, simply that the tuners work would be again protected, nothing wrong with using protection

Its not a crime for anyone to make money from a business, thats what the business is there for, and as for being targets well that's simply business as usual, I've been a target personally for a very long time now, you do get used to it. There are one or two recent "snipers" who I am keeping in sight though, its not all ignored and overlooked, far from it.

But yes I think that you and I probably have the same view of the subject generally.

Business attractions aside I tune because I absolutely love to do it, every car is a challenge, the Subaru, being so absolutely different car to car even with the same mods, presents the best possible variety.

Oh regarding the "small licence fee" charged by EcuTek, I guess "small" is a relative term in that respect, my current remap charges are less than 60% of the price I could charge when OEM ecu remapping sprang into being, yet EcuTek licence costs have certainly not reduced. And, like Andy, I am a fixed cost tuner, so whatever it takes for how ever long and no cost plus unless parts are involved, map upgrades are also realistically priced to suit the required work. Its a competitive market out there.

cheers

Bob

Splitpin

You're talking about a security system that protects one EcuTeK partner's work from being read by another partner, surely?

One of the unavoidable realities of a world in which EcuTeK are not the only horse in the race is that - again given the hardware design of the ECUs we are talking about, it is always possible for someone, whether in the car or on the bench, to pull a firmware image off.

Sure, you can make ROM read via serial I/O difficult - but the minute someone determined enough puts a "protected" ECU on the bench and plugs in his in-circuit programmer/debugger/whatever, he can get at the firmware. The moment he does that, he can look at the serial I/O command interpreter and see how it has been changed, and then the secret is out. And then, one way or the other, the methodology for working round the initial countermeasure disseminates, and before you know it, the ECU is readable via serial diagnostic interface again.

Not directly no as those companies are not dealing in the same area of the market. For starters if you add up every roadgoing Motec, Solaris, Simtek, Link, Pectel or whatever in current use, you'll probably come up with a figure orders of magnitude short of the number of EcuTeK compatible ECUs Subaru ship out of their factory in just one year.

There's no imperative in the open sauce community to do stuff with Motec, as there simply aren't enough of them out there to make the effort worthwhile. The unique problem TeK made for themselves is that they proved what was possible on an original fit ECU, and now there are others who want to do the same thing.

Those others will no doubt range from techy tweakers who are used to overclocking their PCs and like the idea of being able to do the same to their cars, car buffs who in generations gone by would have been covered in grime and messing with Webers, to good reputable mappers who are happy with their OS software (or can't get an EcuTeK agency) to shady buggers who want to make a quick buck undercutting the established players in the ECU mapping scene with software (and maybe firmware) they can get for bog all.

I agree, 100%. From an ethical point of view. Trouble is, in reality, I can't see it working like that.

The problem with "open sauce software that contains protection" is that the protection method is open sauce, and thereby anyone looking to circumvent it will probably already know everything he needs to do so.

The minute someone in open sauce land (and I'm sure it'll happen) starts complaining about his maps being "nicked", and wanting to "protect his work", either all of open sauce will say "ha ha" and blow raspberries at him, or else there'll be some sort of schism, whereby one group says "yes, let's build in some protection", and another - maybe with the assistance of some Russian or other, will say b*ll*cks, and before you know it there will be one flavour of open sauce software that offers author protection - and another sort that will read the protected maps made with the first type.

Then you'll get the Russian releasing software that will read everyone's protected maps, at which point it all starts to look faintly ridiculous.

Oh, of course, again, agreed 100%. If you offer a product or a service that others want to pay for, then let them. The problem in this case is that the whole OE ECU remapping market seems to be taking on a form not dissimilar from the record and movie industries whereby it is technically feasible, for those who want to, to subvert the "industry standard" business model.

Tek's model worked without the need for any real protection back in the day because there was nobody else about to see how paper thin the security really was and poke holes through it. Now, things are a lot less predictable and the fact that there isn't any robust way of protecting the data on the ECU is becoming a significant issue.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Quick a quick point on the other ecus ..

Solaris/Syvecs provide the software free to the owner of the car to be able to access and if needed amend their maps.

Simtek provide a customer programming kit that allows them access to their own ecu.

Motec is also along the same lines I believe.

In all these cases it is possible for the customer to take on their own mapping should they want to after the initial full map from the established tuner.

In open source mapping of the OE ecu, all of my work (or that of any other OS mapper) is immediately accessible by the customer (or anyone else) if they are so inclined. As well as being passionate about getting the car performing at its best and suited to how the customer uses their car, just maybe that same transparency gives added incentive to get it right because there is no security screen to hide behind.

Alan Jeffery

I love the inference that the less well equipped you are, the better job you can do! Tell you what, give it up mate and join the Labour Party ..

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Never in a million years - would rather do battle with your ****

jd5217

oooeeerrrr missus

scoobiewrx555

If only i hadn't mentioned the word ****!!