bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Simon, you've come to this thread late.

OS - never has hacked or reverse engineered any ECUTek software. The only thing that is questionabe was a program called XMLWrite which used stolen ECUTek xml defs, this is long since obsolete.(and has nothing to do with the current project) All development with ECUFlashing/ECU reverse engineering/ROM development is done without looking near ECUTek.

ECUEdit - Is a bit of software developed by a guy call Epifan(Russian), it's not open source. This can write/read ECUTek ROMs but can't remove the lock from the ECU. It costs $300 for the full package.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Where is he saying OS is hacking ECUTek in that post?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Interesting one that Simon - I am not sure that it would work on a non-ecuteked car. ie whether it would download all of the rom and subsequently whether it would flash it up to another car (and work). I suspect that it wouldn't.

I wont be trying as there are very few people that would need these facilities and speed density, boost switching, launch control etc already exist in OS.

Splitpin

Morally they shouldn't Simon, but they can, because the ECU hardware allows it to happen and always has. EcuTeK (should) have always known that. Maybe they did and were working on the basis that they'd make as much as possible from it while the going is good. Or, maybe, as with the USAF and their drones, TeK thought that they were cleverer than everyone else and would always have the market to themselves.

If TeK had paid any attention to the idea of having to protect both their own work and that of their agents from the start, the situation nowadays might be a tiny bit different, but probably not that much. TeK's entire business model has been built on pretty fragile foundations from the start. The minute they weren't the only people on the planet with the ability to reprogram an ECU, their position was fundamentally compromised - as is that of their agents, unfortunately.

EcuTeK only have those thousands to spend because of the thousands more they've made in revenue over the time they had a monopoly Simon. And again, if they're developing this stuff, they are developing it to go on a platform that can be compromised at any moment. Whether that qualifies as a good investment is a very pertinent question.

Ummmm...

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

I only have mobile with me so not easy to sift back through, sorry

scoobiewrx555

You haven't read my posts or anyone elses properly have you Simon!!

I clearly stated that when OS first started out they used BDM type cables, oscilloscopes and dissasembly software tools to hack the std ECU and extract the maps. No different to the way EcuTek first started, only EcuTek got there first and instantly commercialised the the solution while OS stayed 'Open Source'!!

As has been stated time and time again.....OS software cannot read from or write to EcuTek'd ECU's. ECUedit is a different thing altogether developed by some russian that's goes by the monika of epifan and has absolutely nothing to do with OS.

FFS....Read the posts before steaming in!!

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

I havent 'steamed in' as you put it and just because you have said something I am suppose to believe it and not discuss it further? Sorry I thought this was a discussion forum, you type your opinion and others type theres?
As I said where is the line between os and ecuedit when all the os mappers as they call themselves use ecuedit?
Op asked as he want a remap and will therefore if done by an os mapper with ecuedit so you can hide behind the os name all you like but please correct me if I am wrong they all use ecuedit?

Simon

Splitpin

Interesting (or not) factoid: I've just searched the OpenECU.org forums for the word "Ecuedit". Here's what I got back:

If it's "absolutely nothing" to do with open source ECU development, they seem to spend a lot of time talking about it.

scoobiewrx555

EcuTek distributes the software in the way they do because they have no competition whatsoever in the UK, therefore limiting the amount of dealers to a select handful per country ensures there is plenty of business guaranteed for all their dealers because up until now if you want a remap it has to be EcuTek or nothing. Simple economics Simon!!



When you have no competition you can do anything you like and make a killing!! EcuTek have been doing this since 1999. 10yrs without any competition whatsoever.



Now there are some genuinely equally good as options and EcuTek dealers scream blue bloody murder. Get real!!



COBB is starting to make roads into the UK right now. OS is moving along very nicely. EcuTek won't be keeping things quite as exclusive as they have been now things have changed. They have no option now but to appoint more distributors to try and hold onto their monopoly and dominant market status as the only player.



Why do you think EcuTek are now creating mapping tools targeted at mainstream european cars ....because they have to diversify and expand their portfolio. And that's called survival!!



The Subaru market for them has weakened considerably due to competition from OS and COBB making serious ground so before they lose the plot and big chunks of revenue they have to move on.

Simple economics Simon!!

scoobiewrx555

And there are 85 posts coming up on scoobynet with the words
EcuTek ECU lock!!

Lots of people talking about locked out ECU's.

Lot's of people talk about the yorkshire ripper but they don't neccesarily like him

Splitpin

Except Jack the Ripper isn't a member of Scoobynet. Epifan posts on OpenECU.org. Many people there seem to like him, and his software. Kindof undermines the suggestion that he is not part of the "open source project"/"community".

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

He has nothing to do with the ROM development, RomRaider development or the ECUflash software Colby developed, if you can find anything to the contrary I'll give you my car.

Splitpin

Earlier on we were told that this chap and his software were "nothing at all to do" with "open source". Now it turns out that he an active member of one of the OS groups, but he has nothing at all to do with development of anything else.

Hmmmm....


Epifan in "having nothing at all to do with helping open saucers".

Andy.F

Hmmm, thats a nice car you just won

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

It's sat at the side of the house, MOT has run out on the 12th, 10 year old Ford Fiesta. Prefer pickup.

Can you find any definitive info on whether or not ECUEdit is a hacked version of ECUTek, this talk may be libelous, just because he has cracked the ECUTek ROM's doesn't mean he's ever reverse engineered their software, just got a hold of one of their ECU's/ROMs.

This thread must be comical to the Mitsu guys, it doesn't seem to be an issue with them. In fact the issue shouldn't be with ECUEdit cracking the lock it should be with anyone copying the ECUTek roms for commercial gain.

Splitpin

Saw the post pre-edit Andy, you need more speed.

Who's said that? Just scrolled up and can't see anyone trotting that proposition out. With the possible exception of yourself, just now, and here:

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Read between the lines.

scoobiewrx555

Splitpin....Yorkshire Ripper and Jack The Ripper are different folks from different times. Yeah i know....it's late

I'm pretty sure there are individuals on ScoobyNet that many people don't like for what they do or what they say but those individuals are still part of the community and you'll see many threads with comments by them or about them.

Epifan is not part of the project but you can't stop him from becoming a member of the community or posting whatever he likes and others likewise in response. That's what a forum is for. I have no doubt many people like him, but i don't have any opinions one way or the other because i haven't ever corresponded with him. He may well be an absolutely stand up chap or he might be a complete **** but i have no idea.

The problem EcuTek and EcuTek mappers have with him is that he has created a software tool that allows EcuTek'd newage ECU's, pre or post 2006 to be read from and written to. He sells the software and makes a profit. How he created his software i have no idea but at the end of the day there is bugger all you, me, EcuTek mappers, OS mappers or EcuTek themselves can do about it other than EcuTek making their software even tougher to crack.

All i know is Epifan and ECUedit are nothing to do with RomRaider or ECUflash so please seperate ECUedit from OS. I myself don't use it. If i come across an Ecutek'd ECU i leave it alone and move on. God knows there are 1000's of unmapped newage scoobies running around with and without mods so there's plenty of juicy pickings out there for all.

I have to say though, the way EcuTek mappers are going on about OS being the bad guys here and the fact they just cannot or will not see that OS has nothing to do with ECUedit i may as well just go out and buy the software and use it myself because it seems EcuTek and their dealers tar all OS mappers with the same brush therefore it makes no difference what software we use or what we say.

I'm much happier getting on with and cooperating with any and all mappers no matter what software they use to remap scoobs or who they are but i get the feeling it's not a mutual feeling from ECuTek's point of view.

It's not my fault EcuTek told me to sling my hook when i asked the question so fair enough, i'll stick to what i'm using already, see you in the ring.

EcuTek and their dealers want to play silly games then fine...game on!!

Andy.F

I agree, even I find the Ecutek lock an inconvenience at times. The issue is the ability to copy and redistribute performance maps. Most established tuners will have absolutely no use for them but a new guy is going to have easy pickings on the BBS's etc after a bit spamming with the aid of his mates ! The only winners will be the engine rebuilders !

Andy

Anders_WR1

iTrader: (8)

I think ECUTEK are being sneaky if they lock the ECU, the ECUTEK mapper should let the end customer know this happens as part of the map. If you had a SIM free phone and you put an O2 SIM in there and the SIM downloaded code in to the phone that locked it to O2, you would be p1ssed off if you weren't expecting it.

Bluenose, I can't see how you can categorically say that OS hasn't gained any benefit via hacking of ECUTEK software (by Epifan or others), any more than I can say it has. But an OS project could have hundreds of contrubuters and it's impossible to know what they're up to behind closed doors. If Epifan has a passion for it, it wouldn't be difficult for him to get involved that's for sure.

As far as reading ROMs out of an ECU that has no security, if someone wants to sit down and spend time to write a program, fair play to them. The ability to read other program file formats has been around in standard software from day one and I can't believe they are all happily licencing code to each other if they are arch rivals.

It sounds like ECUTEK have had a monopoly for years and the competition is about to get tough. This can only be a good thing for the end user.

Anders

Splitpin

Ummm, yes, I know. It wasn't me who introduced the "Ripper" analogy.

Yes, you can, if it's an ethical open source project. If, as Bluenose above has suggested, there's a reasonable suspicion that an open project is being polluted by information or code that has been obtained by non-original means, you have to cut that source out.

Although, all that said, the reason why I frequently put "Open Source" in inverted commas when dealing with this subject is that from what I've seen of it, it isn't being run to anything like traditional OS developmental strictures and public licensing terms. Appears to be very much a free for all with a few clued-up bods doing most of the donkey work.

That's an opinion, not a verifiable fact, unfortunately. All I'm going on at this juncture is Bluenose's comments above, plus direct quotes of Epifan offering code hints to others involved in the open source project. It may well be that those are all the result of his own work, but given the suggestions above, how can you be sure, and how can you be sure that information gained by non-original means hasn't been incorporated into software distributed under the "open source" banner?

If there was a clear separation, then that'd be one thing. As things stand, it appears as though an individual and software that, on the one hand, you suggest is not "part of open source" seems to be an active and contributing part of the open source community. I'm not sure it's possible to make such a distinction.

You may well be right - I'm sure no company would like seeing their market evaporate - and as I've repeatedly said, there are areas where Tek have nobody but themselves to blame for that.

The question we will never be able to answer is whether the "open source" side would ever have become what it is without Tek both demonstrating what was possible and giving a target for everyone else to aim at. Whether or not any of "the rest" have been able to use EcuTeK-developed code to directly assist them is a separate question.

scoobiewrx555

Splitpin.....This EcuTek v OS argument could go on forever and a day. I don't agree with everything you say but there is stuff i proably do agree with you on. No worries there and you pose some interesting replies/arguments.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what where or when. The fact of the matter is it's here right now. Whether it's OS or ECUedit or COBB or something else that comes along, the fact of the matter is there is nothing EcuTek or anyone else can do about it. However, it is competition and EcuTek just have to deal with it.

The key thing here is whether an EcuTek mappers tunes are being copied and used for commercial gain either whole or in part. I sincerely hope not because all that hard work is valuable, and the cost to the mapper in time and effort to produce is considerable. Truth be told, i would feel the same way if my maps were being pilfered but my maps are all open to scrutiny anyway so there's nothing i can do about that.

My only real gripe is that i cannot even overwrite an EcuTek map which means when i come across one i can't touch it, and that's pretty unfair, not to me really but more importantly to the the customer who now has no choice but to go back to an EcuTek dealer or get another ECU. What a hassle for them!!

Rather than EcuTek or their dealers whinging about OS or ECUedit or COBB or anyhing else they should be more worried about the impact this new competiton will have on their business, and act accordingly.

Personal attacks, one mapper bitching about another and all this polava solves absolutely nothing because there is nothing to solve. Regardless of the tools being used a good mapper is a good mapper and they will always give the customer great service and a great result regardless of what they charge!!

Scooby owners will be the ones who make the choice of who they go to, not you or i. They should be the ones to say what they think.

Out of interest Splitpin.... I don't know if you drive a newage, but if you did, knowing what you know..would you choose OS or EcuTek, or is it more to do with the mapper that you personally know would do a great job on your car regardless of software used??

ride5000

colby boles is the one who kicked off all the OS stuff.

the only thing illegal/immoral from an IP standpoint was xmlwrite, and the OS community was VERY quick and decisive to distance themselves from that.

those who have said ecutek's business model was shaky from the start have it right--when they lost their monopoly over the ability to reflash (see colby boles) it was a paradigm shift that i am not sure they fully comprehended (or even do, to this day).

interestingly, the lead reverse-engineer/mapper for the OS movement (bill/teacups/merchgod) got picked up by cobb to work on their access port development a few months ago.

i'm just happy i could rescale my injectors for +20psi fuel pressure and not have to muck around with maf rescaling in my utec.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

welcome ken

shame about teacups moving on but there is a huge resource bank there and I am sure that cobb will do well as a result of his input

Splitpin

When "mappers" are mentioning in their terms and conditions that their source data is coming from "somewhere else" and their service only consists of the practical aquisition of the source firmware and programming it into the ECU, there seems little doubt that an element of this "copying" is going on - and as you say it isn't just the TeK mappers who will ultimately suffer from this. They may suffer from it first because they're already there, set up, with reputations and knowledge bases to protect (or pillage). In an unregulated market, and with this technology, anyone who develops a reputation will be a target for it.

Yes, agree completely, it's bang out of order. It'd be interesting to hear the views of EcuTek themselves on how and why this came about as it appears to be a violation of the car owner's ability to do what he or she may like with his or her property. I suspect it is nothing more or less than a clumsy knee-jerk reaction to the sudden realisation that they'd lost their monopoly and were trying pretty desperately to take steps to make it difficult for the alternative to take any benefit from their work. Which, I hasten to add, is me attempting to explain it. I am not remotely attempting to justify it.

By the look of things, that's exactly what they did - albeit that their actions were a pretty low blow. Although, as stated earlier, short of completely throwing in the towel, from a technical standpoint I'm not sure what else Tek could have done.

Perfectly correct. However, that doesn't change the fact that there will be those keen to try and take shortcuts or trade off the reputation and hard work of others - and that will continue to be the case, even if the disreputable ones come and go.

Personally, neither of the above, I have another option. However, if that wasn't open, I can only refer the hon. gentleman to the answer I gave in post #3. At end of day it's about the book not the word processor used to write it, so yes, if it was a mapper I trusted, I'd trust him to pick the tools that enabled him to do the best job.

Andy.F

Yes thats my point but how do you prove it ?

I also think its only fair you should be able to overwrite them, its not my decision though. Just buy the stolen software like some others !!!
As mentioned previously I will return to std any Ecutek map free of charge to allow an individual to write his own map. Currently only 06 onwards cars though.

I'm not sure 'worried' is the correct term however this sort of information should be out there, alerting Ecutek owners that their maps may now be read, copied and stored with the possibility of that information being used for commercial gain by others.
Informing potential customers of the new developments being worked on by Ecutek such as 'racerom' will also assist.
As an aside, Ecutek dealers now also have the facility to read roms so its not all that bad

The cost will always come into it and that currently puts the Ecutek mappers at a considerable disadvantage on 'new' maps, unless they of course just buy the dodgy software too !

Can live with that

Andy.

Splitpin

Blimey, you mean you've only just officially been given this functionality?

Hope TeK haven't charged you extra for it!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

but as I mentioned earlier, this will not remove the lock on 06/07 cars Andy so is a futile process.

Andy.F

Have you tried this lately Duncan ? If I flash a completely standard map to the ECU it should unlock it, leaving the Ecutek tuner licence on board for future use if required. In a similar mode to when I tune over a Prodrive licence, it also remains on the ECU in addition to my tuner licence.

No additional cost lol, the lack of a read facility worked ok for us tuners most of the time as our maps remained private, we all just done our own stuff, no copying !!

Andy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I haven't recently as I haven't needed to and to be honest I rarely come across cars that have been ecuteked. Once they have paid the initial license and first full ecutek map, future mapping costs are a lot more comparable. Unless they have completely lost faith in their mapper it makes sense to stay with them in a lot of ways. I know Paul at Zen came across this issue this summer on an 06 car though.