Let's hear it for the Swiss!!
01 December 2009, 08:11 PM
#31
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He's making a comparison between the rising persecution of the jews and Switzerland basically getting more robust on their planning laws.
He's also talking shoite
The laws that were passed in pre war germany which came down on the jews had precisely zero referendums and everything to do with a facist government with a hidden agenda.
They were very good at propaganda. They preyed on German patriotism to encourage the mindset that "pure blood" was the best sort of german and at the same time, bombarded the cinemas (the widest available public medium of the time) with "scientific" films about how the jews were racially subhuman, using actors posing as scientists to lend credibility to their claims.
A few months later they'd bring in the nuremberg laws which basically did away with all jewish civil rights in a single stroke, further restricting their freedoms which were already highly restrictive. By this time, the brainwashing was so effective only a tiny minority disagreed. Of course the Jews couldnt disagree, by this time, they couldnt even vote.
The final straw was when a jewish lad killed a highly respected German diplomat. The **** party seized upon this and "the night of broken glass" took place. The Reality was the SS on the biggest rampage of their entire history, but once again, was spun and propagandised as honest german citizens venting their anger.
After that, it was all over bar the rounding up and the handing out the directions to auschwitz.
You should try reading some history books mate, not once in the persecution and extermination of the jews was public asked to vote in a referendum on their treatment. Their opinion was the only thing that mattered and that was poisoned by arguably the most intensive propaganda campaign in the history of mankind.
If you think that's what has happened in Switzerland in the last few days then you need your head looking at.
astraboy.
He's also talking shoite
The laws that were passed in pre war germany which came down on the jews had precisely zero referendums and everything to do with a facist government with a hidden agenda.
They were very good at propaganda. They preyed on German patriotism to encourage the mindset that "pure blood" was the best sort of german and at the same time, bombarded the cinemas (the widest available public medium of the time) with "scientific" films about how the jews were racially subhuman, using actors posing as scientists to lend credibility to their claims.
A few months later they'd bring in the nuremberg laws which basically did away with all jewish civil rights in a single stroke, further restricting their freedoms which were already highly restrictive. By this time, the brainwashing was so effective only a tiny minority disagreed. Of course the Jews couldnt disagree, by this time, they couldnt even vote.
The final straw was when a jewish lad killed a highly respected German diplomat. The **** party seized upon this and "the night of broken glass" took place. The Reality was the SS on the biggest rampage of their entire history, but once again, was spun and propagandised as honest german citizens venting their anger.
After that, it was all over bar the rounding up and the handing out the directions to auschwitz.
You should try reading some history books mate, not once in the persecution and extermination of the jews was public asked to vote in a referendum on their treatment. Their opinion was the only thing that mattered and that was poisoned by arguably the most intensive propaganda campaign in the history of mankind.
If you think that's what has happened in Switzerland in the last few days then you need your head looking at.
astraboy.
I'm talking about using referendum to impose the will of the majority on the minority, whether that will is malevolent or not....so hardly 'shiote' as you put it
So you may apologise if you wish;-
Last edited by Martin2005; 01 December 2009 at 08:15 PM.
01 December 2009, 08:20 PM
#32
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And who makes the decisions? Let's see. 'Real issues'...hmmmm. How about the Iraq war? How many people marched against it? What % of the population did the polls say were against it? Obviously not a 'real issue'.
How about the Lisbon Treaty? Same questions. But losing our sovereignty is obviously not a 'real issue'.
Cr*p!
If that's what happened I'd accept it. I may not agree with it, and I'd be within my rights to campaign against the ban, but that's democracy in action.
Why not? The current system means we are obliged to do both but it obviously hasn't worked out - mainly because the current lot are financial and moral pygmies.
Dave
How about the Lisbon Treaty? Same questions. But losing our sovereignty is obviously not a 'real issue'.
Cr*p!
If that's what happened I'd accept it. I may not agree with it, and I'd be within my rights to campaign against the ban, but that's democracy in action.
Why not? The current system means we are obliged to do both but it obviously hasn't worked out - mainly because the current lot are financial and moral pygmies.
Dave
Your argument is completely predicated on the notion that the majority are always right, and as I pointed out just look at 1930s Germany as just one example of that being pretty bad assumption (strangely you decided that was 'crap', with no explanation as to why)
01 December 2009, 08:25 PM
#33
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 9,368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never ever said there was a referendum in German, not once, I'm saying that the majority view in Germany was demonstrably not pro-Jew / Anti - ****
I'm talking about using referendum to impose the will of the majority on the minority, whether that will is malevolent or not....so hardly 'shiote' as you put it
So you may apologise if you wish;-
I'm talking about using referendum to impose the will of the majority on the minority, whether that will is malevolent or not....so hardly 'shiote' as you put it
So you may apologise if you wish;-
Hutts said:
And the dangers are???? Something was put to the vote and the majority vote was carried forward. Can't see the problem. If you disagree with the majority vote, you should have a) campaigned against it and now b) gone along with the majority verdict.
and you said:
This is utter bollox Dave and you know it...... 1930's Germany anyone?????
A direct comparison between a democratic process and a totalitarian series of absolutes with no democratic process, relentless propaganda and a hidden agenda.
I'll apologise for saying you're talking shoite when you apologise to hutts for saying his arguement was "utter bollox"
astraboy.
01 December 2009, 11:28 PM
#35
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a couple of points - I think there are around 750,000 practicing Christians in Iraq, as an example of a Muslim country, and quite a lot of churches.
There is no doubt that in recent times there has been more persecution although that is as much a proxy for retribution against the West and the rise of extremism as it has been tolerated for Centuries before that.
As for my comments on democracy - I stand by them. Democracy typically works by creating elected representatives.
Imagine everything done by referendum. At the start of a war everyone votes for going on a 'crusade' or going to give some poor country a good kicking. Except it gets a bit tough and some dead soldiers start arriving home. Cue another referendum so we pull out.
Or the banking crisis, or the recession, or tax rises.
If everything was run by the majority the country would be in a complete bloody mess.
There is no doubt that in recent times there has been more persecution although that is as much a proxy for retribution against the West and the rise of extremism as it has been tolerated for Centuries before that.
As for my comments on democracy - I stand by them. Democracy typically works by creating elected representatives.
Imagine everything done by referendum. At the start of a war everyone votes for going on a 'crusade' or going to give some poor country a good kicking. Except it gets a bit tough and some dead soldiers start arriving home. Cue another referendum so we pull out.
Or the banking crisis, or the recession, or tax rises.
If everything was run by the majority the country would be in a complete bloody mess.
02 December 2009, 10:05 AM
#37
Scooby Regular
I have worked on lots of large business projects and whenever a decision gets opened up to the "majority" -- it always goes off the rails.
The final project delivery is always miles off target and 2 years behind schedule.
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 02 December 2009 at 12:54 PM.
02 December 2009, 10:48 AM
#38
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a couple of points - I think there are around 750,000 practicing Christians in Iraq, as an example of a Muslim country, and quite a lot of churches.
There is no doubt that in recent times there has been more persecution although that is as much a proxy for retribution against the West and the rise of extremism as it has been tolerated for Centuries before that.
As for my comments on democracy - I stand by them. Democracy typically works by creating elected representatives.
Imagine everything done by referendum. At the start of a war everyone votes for going on a 'crusade' or going to give some poor country a good kicking. Except it gets a bit tough and some dead soldiers start arriving home. Cue another referendum so we pull out.
Or the banking crisis, or the recession, or tax rises.
If everything was run by the majority the country would be in a complete bloody mess.
There is no doubt that in recent times there has been more persecution although that is as much a proxy for retribution against the West and the rise of extremism as it has been tolerated for Centuries before that.
As for my comments on democracy - I stand by them. Democracy typically works by creating elected representatives.
Imagine everything done by referendum. At the start of a war everyone votes for going on a 'crusade' or going to give some poor country a good kicking. Except it gets a bit tough and some dead soldiers start arriving home. Cue another referendum so we pull out.
Or the banking crisis, or the recession, or tax rises.
If everything was run by the majority the country would be in a complete bloody mess.
How else are you going to get a sensible decision for a country except by going along with the majority view?
You have avoided answering my earlier post. Was it a good thing that we attacked Iraq, or that they dumped their "sincere" promise for a referendum over the Lisbon fairy story? Is it a good thing that we are being dragged into an Eu federation without being allowed to make our feelings known about it.
The government does not have the right to give the country away against the wishes of the people!
Martin-you are going around in circles!
Les
02 December 2009, 12:17 PM
#39
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les - don't get me started on Europe as if it has not been clear to you I am a European Federalist. Oh, and to top it off I would be a republican as well if I had the choice.
Of course Governments get voted in by the majority - that is a democratic process. My point is that going to a referendum is a failure of that process as it presumes that we cannot trust our Government with tough decisions.
Vive L'Europe!!
Trout
Of course Governments get voted in by the majority - that is a democratic process. My point is that going to a referendum is a failure of that process as it presumes that we cannot trust our Government with tough decisions.
Vive L'Europe!!
Trout
02 December 2009, 12:56 PM
#40
02 December 2009, 01:02 PM
#41
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't governments get voted in by a majority? Is that unfair to the minority too.
How else are you going to get a sensible decision for a country except by going along with the majority view?
You have avoided answering my earlier post. Was it a good thing that we attacked Iraq, or that they dumped their "sincere" promise for a referendum over the Lisbon fairy story? Is it a good thing that we are being dragged into an Eu federation without being allowed to make our feelings known about it.
The government does not have the right to give the country away against the wishes of the people!
Martin-you are going around in circles!
Les
How else are you going to get a sensible decision for a country except by going along with the majority view?
You have avoided answering my earlier post. Was it a good thing that we attacked Iraq, or that they dumped their "sincere" promise for a referendum over the Lisbon fairy story? Is it a good thing that we are being dragged into an Eu federation without being allowed to make our feelings known about it.
The government does not have the right to give the country away against the wishes of the people!
Martin-you are going around in circles!
Les
02 December 2009, 03:12 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les - don't get me started on Europe as if it has not been clear to you I am a European Federalist. Oh, and to top it off I would be a republican as well if I had the choice.
Of course Governments get voted in by the majority - that is a democratic process. My point is that going to a referendum is a failure of that process as it presumes that we cannot trust our Government with tough decisions.
Vive L'Europe!!
Trout
Of course Governments get voted in by the majority - that is a democratic process. My point is that going to a referendum is a failure of that process as it presumes that we cannot trust our Government with tough decisions.
Vive L'Europe!!
Trout
I'd like to see referemda on the following, which I'm sure would pass by a considerable majority:
(1) Reinstate the death penalty.
(2) Castrate all male paedophiles.
(3) Get out of the EU.
.
.
.
(99) Ban all caravans.
02 December 2009, 04:22 PM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dave
02 December 2009, 06:38 PM
#44
02 December 2009, 07:00 PM
#45
The Swiss have the right to choose what they do and don't allow in their country. In this case then have banned specific non-native religious symbolism. The freedom to worship the sky-fairy of one's choice is not affected. 
Did I mention that some of my best friends are Swiss?
Did I mention that some of my best friends are Swiss?
02 December 2009, 07:33 PM
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Now you mention it I seem to remember I didn't vote in 2005 either. Away on business or some other dodgy excuse. 
He's not called 'Tony' is he ... ??
Dave
He's not called 'Tony' is he ... ??
Dave
03 December 2009, 12:06 PM
#47
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les - don't get me started on Europe as if it has not been clear to you I am a European Federalist. Oh, and to top it off I would be a republican as well if I had the choice.
Of course Governments get voted in by the majority - that is a democratic process. My point is that going to a referendum is a failure of that process as it presumes that we cannot trust our Government with tough decisions.
Vive L'Europe!!
Trout
Of course Governments get voted in by the majority - that is a democratic process. My point is that going to a referendum is a failure of that process as it presumes that we cannot trust our Government with tough decisions.
Vive L'Europe!!
Trout
Federation into the Eu is a big mistake and will lead to loss of our personal freedoms and the death of true democracy.
Les
03 December 2009, 12:09 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a mistake that was too! Don't think so many are being fooled now any more!
Les
03 December 2009, 03:31 PM
#49
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But how can we trust a government which has signed to ratiify the Lisbon Treaty without allowing the electorate to have the referendum on the matter that they faithfully promised us. To deny us that because they knew that the country did not want that which was against their personal ambitions is a shameful and traitorous act.
Federation into the Eu is a big mistake and will lead to loss of our personal freedoms and the death of true democracy.
Les
Federation into the Eu is a big mistake and will lead to loss of our personal freedoms and the death of true democracy.
Les
I am guessing you prefer to be a subject whereas I would prefer to be a citizen - for surely until you stop being a subject you can never be a true democrat.
05 December 2009, 03:52 PM
#50
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I guess there we will never agree - I am guessing that a Europhile democratic republican is probably as far away from a nationalistic, royalist as you can get
I am guessing you prefer to be a subject whereas I would prefer to be a citizen - for surely until you stop being a subject you can never be a true democrat.
I am guessing you prefer to be a subject whereas I would prefer to be a citizen - for surely until you stop being a subject you can never be a true democrat.
I need it to be explained why as a subject I can't be classed as supporting a proper democracy. Certainly don't see our Royal family being non democratic anyway.
I can assure you that as a citizen in a federated Eu, you would not have a hope of seeing any real democracy. What notice would all those non elected chaps take of your voting effort, while it was still allowed that is?
Les
05 December 2009, 04:46 PM
#51
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Somehow, I think there's work ahead of us...
Oh, and thanks, Trout, for being a voice of reason.
Could you all please vote UKIP and **** off out off Europe? I would be grateful for that. It would surely make my life easier (and make binge drinking in Prague a bit more difficult)
Please step out of the EU.
Edit: nice one...
Oh, and thanks, Trout, for being a voice of reason.
Could you all please vote UKIP and **** off out off Europe? I would be grateful for that. It would surely make my life easier (and make binge drinking in Prague a bit more difficult)
Please step out of the EU.
Edit: nice one...
Last edited by EvilBevel; 05 December 2009 at 04:52 PM.
06 December 2009, 11:56 AM
#52
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Somehow, I think there's work ahead of us...
Oh, and thanks, Trout, for being a voice of reason.
Could you all please vote UKIP and **** off out off Europe? I would be grateful for that. It would surely make my life easier (and make binge drinking in Prague a bit more difficult)
Please step out of the EU.
Edit: nice one...
Oh, and thanks, Trout, for being a voice of reason.
Could you all please vote UKIP and **** off out off Europe? I would be grateful for that. It would surely make my life easier (and make binge drinking in Prague a bit more difficult)
Please step out of the EU.
Edit: nice one...
Les
06 December 2009, 12:28 PM
#53
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To tell you the truth, I am not the only one that is ashamed about the result. A lot of Swiss people gave it very little chance that the ban would be accepted and didn't go voting. This probably was one of the reason that all the others that were for the ban of minarettes, had an easy way to win. In addition to this, unfortunately I could hardly see posters and banners from the parties, that were against this ban. Well, it looks like a lot of Swiss people are not as open minded as I would have thought. This whole topic was definitely not only meant against the minarettes but rather in fear of the islamic world, which is a shame IMO. 
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post