Help !!! Killed the Scoob !
09 July 2010, 11:58 AM
#451
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Would like to see someone walk into halfords and say "can you buy me a new engine, as this crap you advised me to get has allowed the bearings to be eaten by the crank"
09 July 2010, 02:32 PM
#452
I use 10W-50 Pro S.
Is the 50 'hot weight' more than adequate at preventing the oil thinning out too much when the oil temps are high? Or is the much maligned 60 weight actually needed?!!!
This really worries me, the oil getting too thin... inadequate oil pressure etc.
Last edited by joz8968; 09 July 2010 at 02:37 PM.
09 July 2010, 10:03 PM
#453
Thanks for the input Simon.
I just changed to Millers 10-40 ?
I wonder if heat from the turbo and associated pipework could play a part ?
I don't have any heat shields or 'lagging'
Is it cylinder number 3 that is nearest to the turbo and isn't that meant to be the weak point ?
Without spending limitless amounts of money, how do I avoid a re-occurence (if I am stupid enough to get back in the ring for another slapping !)
I want a car that can take high speed runs without commiting suicide, that I can drive around corners without worrying about oil starvation and that doesn't spend more time in the workshop than an Italian car !
Which components will have any effect and which won't ?
For example, will any standard Subaru crankshaft have better lubrication qualities ?
I see people mention 'cross drilled' JDM cranks from STI models, I guess only available in 75mm stroke ?
Are the 2.5 STi and WRX cranks the same if I decided to go for a 2.1 stroker ?
Are the so called 'race' bearings from ACL etc any more resistant to problems than the std Subaru items and if so why ?
I already have a brand new RCM 'uprated' oil pump (10mm) to fit if I decide to try again with another engine, will this help or do I need something even more beefed up ?
My theory would be that unless you can get more / cooler oil to the bearings, it isn't going to matter what you do with forged internals, uprated bearings, etc ?
With this in mind, would you be better spending the money on a baffled sump and improved oil pickup system (if such a thing exists) rather than spending loads on a forged 2.1 CDB build ?
All input welcome as always !
I just changed to Millers 10-40 ?
I wonder if heat from the turbo and associated pipework could play a part ?
I don't have any heat shields or 'lagging'
Is it cylinder number 3 that is nearest to the turbo and isn't that meant to be the weak point ?
Without spending limitless amounts of money, how do I avoid a re-occurence (if I am stupid enough to get back in the ring for another slapping !)
I want a car that can take high speed runs without commiting suicide, that I can drive around corners without worrying about oil starvation and that doesn't spend more time in the workshop than an Italian car !
Which components will have any effect and which won't ?
For example, will any standard Subaru crankshaft have better lubrication qualities ?
I see people mention 'cross drilled' JDM cranks from STI models, I guess only available in 75mm stroke ?
Are the 2.5 STi and WRX cranks the same if I decided to go for a 2.1 stroker ?
Are the so called 'race' bearings from ACL etc any more resistant to problems than the std Subaru items and if so why ?
I already have a brand new RCM 'uprated' oil pump (10mm) to fit if I decide to try again with another engine, will this help or do I need something even more beefed up ?
My theory would be that unless you can get more / cooler oil to the bearings, it isn't going to matter what you do with forged internals, uprated bearings, etc ?
With this in mind, would you be better spending the money on a baffled sump and improved oil pickup system (if such a thing exists) rather than spending loads on a forged 2.1 CDB build ?
All input welcome as always !
09 July 2010, 10:56 PM
#454
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Thanks for the input Simon.
I just changed to Millers 10-40 ?
I wonder if heat from the turbo and associated pipework could play a part ?
I don't have any heat shields or 'lagging'
Is it cylinder number 3 that is nearest to the turbo and isn't that meant to be the weak point ?
Without spending limitless amounts of money, how do I avoid a re-occurence (if I am stupid enough to get back in the ring for another slapping !)
I want a car that can take high speed runs without commiting suicide, that I can drive around corners without worrying about oil starvation and that doesn't spend more time in the workshop than an Italian car !
Which components will have any effect and which won't ?
For example, will any standard Subaru crankshaft have better lubrication qualities ?
I see people mention 'cross drilled' JDM cranks from STI models, I guess only available in 75mm stroke ?
Are the 2.5 STi and WRX cranks the same if I decided to go for a 2.1 stroker ?
Are the so called 'race' bearings from ACL etc any more resistant to problems than the std Subaru items and if so why ?
I already have a brand new RCM 'uprated' oil pump (10mm) to fit if I decide to try again with another engine, will this help or do I need something even more beefed up ?
My theory would be that unless you can get more / cooler oil to the bearings, it isn't going to matter what you do with forged internals, uprated bearings, etc ?
With this in mind, would you be better spending the money on a baffled sump and improved oil pickup system (if such a thing exists) rather than spending loads on a forged 2.1 CDB build ?
All input welcome as always !
I just changed to Millers 10-40 ?
I wonder if heat from the turbo and associated pipework could play a part ?
I don't have any heat shields or 'lagging'
Is it cylinder number 3 that is nearest to the turbo and isn't that meant to be the weak point ?
Without spending limitless amounts of money, how do I avoid a re-occurence (if I am stupid enough to get back in the ring for another slapping !)
I want a car that can take high speed runs without commiting suicide, that I can drive around corners without worrying about oil starvation and that doesn't spend more time in the workshop than an Italian car !
Which components will have any effect and which won't ?
For example, will any standard Subaru crankshaft have better lubrication qualities ?
I see people mention 'cross drilled' JDM cranks from STI models, I guess only available in 75mm stroke ?
Are the 2.5 STi and WRX cranks the same if I decided to go for a 2.1 stroker ?
Are the so called 'race' bearings from ACL etc any more resistant to problems than the std Subaru items and if so why ?
I already have a brand new RCM 'uprated' oil pump (10mm) to fit if I decide to try again with another engine, will this help or do I need something even more beefed up ?
My theory would be that unless you can get more / cooler oil to the bearings, it isn't going to matter what you do with forged internals, uprated bearings, etc ?
With this in mind, would you be better spending the money on a baffled sump and improved oil pickup system (if such a thing exists) rather than spending loads on a forged 2.1 CDB build ?
All input welcome as always !
Has had an uprated inlet manifold,throttle,air filter (pannel type) and a ca-automotive remap. Oh and it has a factory fit LSD!! Drift anyone???
Lots of foot down fun. Plus he's letting it go for a silly £1500
Tempted myself actually!!
10 July 2010, 10:41 PM
#457
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Alot of people fitted sti9 cross drilled cranks as they had better oil supply to the bearings.
Possible route maybe??
Possible route maybe??
10 July 2010, 11:41 PM
#459
I'm very tempted Nick !
The point I'm making though is that I have had two bottom end failures in the past 12 months, even after following advice about replacing the modine and oil pump when replacing the bottom end.
I drive 'em hard and worry that if I just buy another one, isn't the same thing going to happen again ?
These engines seem prone to poor lubrication to the crank bearings, especially under severe cornering forces or high speed runs, the rest of the car isn't affecting this, just the engine assembly !
I have been tempted to buy a Bugeye STi so that I get the six speed box already in the car, I think they also have forged pistons ?
The thing that concerns me, however, is 'are they any less likely to suffer bottom end failure and if so why ?'
If I confirm that I am completely insane and decide to go for engine number three, what bits do I need to accumulate to build the 'bomb proof' bottom end ?
The point I'm making though is that I have had two bottom end failures in the past 12 months, even after following advice about replacing the modine and oil pump when replacing the bottom end.
I drive 'em hard and worry that if I just buy another one, isn't the same thing going to happen again ?
These engines seem prone to poor lubrication to the crank bearings, especially under severe cornering forces or high speed runs, the rest of the car isn't affecting this, just the engine assembly !
I have been tempted to buy a Bugeye STi so that I get the six speed box already in the car, I think they also have forged pistons ?
The thing that concerns me, however, is 'are they any less likely to suffer bottom end failure and if so why ?'
If I confirm that I am completely insane and decide to go for engine number three, what bits do I need to accumulate to build the 'bomb proof' bottom end ?
11 July 2010, 11:03 AM
#460
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Mine has been running just shy of 400 bhp for a couple of years, (STI).
Hard road use, and track time on a rallycross circuit, in my experience I've suffered more from fuel surge than oil surge in that time.
IMHO.
dunx
A pals cdb 2.1 is running 627 bhp.....
Hard road use, and track time on a rallycross circuit, in my experience I've suffered more from fuel surge than oil surge in that time.
IMHO.
dunx
A pals cdb 2.1 is running 627 bhp.....
11 July 2010, 11:26 AM
#461
Am I just cursed !
I must be an engine failure magnet ? (I'd rather be a f***y magnet however !)
I love these things even though they keep kicking me when I am down, I just want one that will last and not leave me a nervous wreck everytime I drive it.
I like the exterior and interior look of my car, needs a few little 'trolley dents' etc sorting but no big deal.
I'd rather keep it (wife permitting !) and sort out an engine that will last.
Anyone know if the 2.5 crankshaft is cross drilled ?
I'm thinking of the 'nitrided' ones which I presume are from the later spec STi's ?
I would ideally like an increase in capacity to 2.1 or even 2.5 but public opinion suggests that the 'toughest' crank is the JDM 2.0 cross drilled one (from the Spec C ?)
I know a closed deck block is not going to help with the lubrication but I am also considering looking out for one to use as the basis for a build, once again this limits me to 2.0 with the cross drilled crank or 2.1 with the 2.5 crank.
I must be an engine failure magnet ? (I'd rather be a f***y magnet however !)
I love these things even though they keep kicking me when I am down, I just want one that will last and not leave me a nervous wreck everytime I drive it.
I like the exterior and interior look of my car, needs a few little 'trolley dents' etc sorting but no big deal.
I'd rather keep it (wife permitting !) and sort out an engine that will last.
Anyone know if the 2.5 crankshaft is cross drilled ?
I'm thinking of the 'nitrided' ones which I presume are from the later spec STi's ?
I would ideally like an increase in capacity to 2.1 or even 2.5 but public opinion suggests that the 'toughest' crank is the JDM 2.0 cross drilled one (from the Spec C ?)
I know a closed deck block is not going to help with the lubrication but I am also considering looking out for one to use as the basis for a build, once again this limits me to 2.0 with the cross drilled crank or 2.1 with the 2.5 crank.
11 July 2010, 12:07 PM
#462
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fix it,sell it,and go buy a jdm sti its your only answer as everythin you want is in the jdm ,better block/better 6 speed/brembos,ecu more capable better spec overall.
11 July 2010, 02:35 PM
#463
That would be one solution.
The only advantage to upgrading the current car is that I can buy bits for it in stages and spread the cost.
If I fix it to sell, I would have to do a proper job so I can offer it with confidence !
What would it be worth though ?
Probably more if I sold the mods and put the car back to standard ?
Seems like a lot of work to sell it straight away.
I have bought myself a bit of time by purchasing a runabout to keep Mrs 'The Voices' happy.
Rover 220 Coupe (non turbo) 1995 with 57k genuine and every MOT from new !
Even has the service book stamped upto date !
The only advantage to upgrading the current car is that I can buy bits for it in stages and spread the cost.
If I fix it to sell, I would have to do a proper job so I can offer it with confidence !
What would it be worth though ?
Probably more if I sold the mods and put the car back to standard ?
Seems like a lot of work to sell it straight away.
I have bought myself a bit of time by purchasing a runabout to keep Mrs 'The Voices' happy.
Rover 220 Coupe (non turbo) 1995 with 57k genuine and every MOT from new !
Even has the service book stamped upto date !
11 July 2010, 03:14 PM
#464
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Or buy an STI motor from Neil @ EMB, and fit your heads....
Tough bottom end and no ecu/wiring issues ! And sell the AVCS heads on !
dunx
P.S. Alan J @ Enginetuner reckons a S-CDB he builds will manage 500 bhp, we'll see.....
Tough bottom end and no ecu/wiring issues ! And sell the AVCS heads on !
dunx
P.S. Alan J @ Enginetuner reckons a S-CDB he builds will manage 500 bhp, we'll see.....
11 July 2010, 04:43 PM
#465
What is different about the (Newage) STi bottom ends ?
I presume forged pistons, semi-closed deck block instead of the open deck on my WRX ?
Other than JDM 'cross drilled' crank, I take it bugeye and blobeye WRX and STi have the same crank (in UK spec) ?
I heard that virtually all newage rods are the same (Spec C excepted) is this the case ?
I presume forged pistons, semi-closed deck block instead of the open deck on my WRX ?
Other than JDM 'cross drilled' crank, I take it bugeye and blobeye WRX and STi have the same crank (in UK spec) ?
I heard that virtually all newage rods are the same (Spec C excepted) is this the case ?
11 July 2010, 08:34 PM
#466
11 July 2010, 11:27 PM
#467
Simon, quick overview (just in case anyone else is reading this and doesn't want to read pages of my life history)
Original engine suffered big end failure, I thought I must have run it low on oil but now.....................I'm not so sure ?
Ebay engine fiasco, supposed 'fully reconditioned engine', fitted by 'The 3 Stooges' and then head gasket failed.
I then fitted a used bottom end purchased from a member on here, I replaced the modine at the same time and cleaned and refitted the heads from my original engine (new OEM metal gaskets)
Ran fine for a few hundred miles but then need to investigate oil stains on the driveway.
The rocker covers were leaking and seemed to be getting worse, tried tightening the bolts with the engine in the car and it did seem to improve slightly.
One of the rocker bolts then snapped whilst driving, pulled in when I saw oil smoke out of the scoop and stopped the car.
The oil warning light had not come on and I had not heard any rattles or knocks from the engine.
I got the car recovered to work, took the engine out, refitted the rocker covers and sorted a few other bits whilst the engine was out.
Refilled with Millers 10/40, turned over with crank sensor off until oil light went out and then started first go !
It ran great for a couple of days, checked the oil and water daily as a precaution, took it for a 'proper' drive with a buddy of mine (the wife is a nervous passenger !)
It got driven hard through some hairpins, a good 'A' road blast and then a motorway run with a chap in a TVR.
As I came of at my junction and slowed down I could hear a rattle which rapidly developed into the familiar 'knock of death'
So the short answer is................my original heads on used bottom end !
Sorry to go on !
Original engine suffered big end failure, I thought I must have run it low on oil but now.....................I'm not so sure ?
Ebay engine fiasco, supposed 'fully reconditioned engine', fitted by 'The 3 Stooges' and then head gasket failed.
I then fitted a used bottom end purchased from a member on here, I replaced the modine at the same time and cleaned and refitted the heads from my original engine (new OEM metal gaskets)
Ran fine for a few hundred miles but then need to investigate oil stains on the driveway.
The rocker covers were leaking and seemed to be getting worse, tried tightening the bolts with the engine in the car and it did seem to improve slightly.
One of the rocker bolts then snapped whilst driving, pulled in when I saw oil smoke out of the scoop and stopped the car.
The oil warning light had not come on and I had not heard any rattles or knocks from the engine.
I got the car recovered to work, took the engine out, refitted the rocker covers and sorted a few other bits whilst the engine was out.
Refilled with Millers 10/40, turned over with crank sensor off until oil light went out and then started first go !
It ran great for a couple of days, checked the oil and water daily as a precaution, took it for a 'proper' drive with a buddy of mine (the wife is a nervous passenger !)
It got driven hard through some hairpins, a good 'A' road blast and then a motorway run with a chap in a TVR.
As I came of at my junction and slowed down I could hear a rattle which rapidly developed into the familiar 'knock of death'
So the short answer is................my original heads on used bottom end !
Sorry to go on !
11 July 2010, 11:41 PM
#468
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Right so the first original one could have gone due to low oil or just due to wear and tear, suffering dealer oil changes with nonprefilled oil filter and no cranking before hand etc..
Then unfortunatly this latest one either has suffered oil starvation when the bolt fell out or just wear and tear on an equally as old bottom end as the other one, and unfortunatly I really don't think it does the bearings any good to be in a bottom end with no oil on for a while and the bottom end exposed to dust etc.. and then built back up and used.
Personnally if you are using a second bottom end I would strip and replace the bigends and mains.. its a lot cheaper at that point than unfortunatly now.
The bearings will slowly pick up marks and damage over time.. you then give it a hard time and that minor damage causes hot spots on the bearing and gets worse to the point where the crank and bearing fuse and then bits of bearing are ripped out by the rotating crank and the damage is done...
I think you should remove the engine, replace crank, bearings, modane etc.. and run it in and you should have no issues. The biggest pain is cleaning all the sump and heads to remove all the cooper from the bearings.
Simon
Then unfortunatly this latest one either has suffered oil starvation when the bolt fell out or just wear and tear on an equally as old bottom end as the other one, and unfortunatly I really don't think it does the bearings any good to be in a bottom end with no oil on for a while and the bottom end exposed to dust etc.. and then built back up and used.
Personnally if you are using a second bottom end I would strip and replace the bigends and mains.. its a lot cheaper at that point than unfortunatly now.
The bearings will slowly pick up marks and damage over time.. you then give it a hard time and that minor damage causes hot spots on the bearing and gets worse to the point where the crank and bearing fuse and then bits of bearing are ripped out by the rotating crank and the damage is done...
I think you should remove the engine, replace crank, bearings, modane etc.. and run it in and you should have no issues. The biggest pain is cleaning all the sump and heads to remove all the cooper from the bearings.
Simon
11 July 2010, 11:41 PM
#469
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Right so the first original one could have gone due to low oil or just due to wear and tear, suffering dealer oil changes with nonprefilled oil filter and no cranking before hand etc..
Then unfortunatly this latest one either has suffered oil starvation when the bolt fell out or just wear and tear on an equally as old bottom end as the other one, and unfortunatly I really don't think it does the bearings any good to be in a bottom end with no oil on for a while and the bottom end exposed to dust etc.. and then built back up and used.
Personnally if you are using a second bottom end I would strip and replace the bigends and mains.. its a lot cheaper at that point than unfortunatly now.
The bearings will slowly pick up marks and damage over time.. you then give it a hard time and that minor damage causes hot spots on the bearing and gets worse to the point where the crank and bearing fuse and then bits of bearing are ripped out by the rotating crank and the damage is done...
I think you should remove the engine, replace crank, bearings, modane etc.. and run it in and you should have no issues. The biggest pain is cleaning all the sump and heads to remove all the cooper from the bearings.
Simon
Then unfortunatly this latest one either has suffered oil starvation when the bolt fell out or just wear and tear on an equally as old bottom end as the other one, and unfortunatly I really don't think it does the bearings any good to be in a bottom end with no oil on for a while and the bottom end exposed to dust etc.. and then built back up and used.
Personnally if you are using a second bottom end I would strip and replace the bigends and mains.. its a lot cheaper at that point than unfortunatly now.
The bearings will slowly pick up marks and damage over time.. you then give it a hard time and that minor damage causes hot spots on the bearing and gets worse to the point where the crank and bearing fuse and then bits of bearing are ripped out by the rotating crank and the damage is done...
I think you should remove the engine, replace crank, bearings, modane etc.. and run it in and you should have no issues. The biggest pain is cleaning all the sump and heads to remove all the cooper from the bearings.
Simon
12 July 2010, 12:48 AM
#471
I would personally start afresh with a completely new long engine... that way you will have totally ruled out EVERYTHING in the existing engine components. I'd opt for a 2.1 stoker from Lateral and source new heads, brand new uprated oil pump, modine, etc, etc. and get it all put together by API.
Leave NOTHING to chance this time.... You might say: trice bitten; thrice shy!
Leave NOTHING to chance this time.... You might say: trice bitten; thrice shy!
Last edited by joz8968; 12 July 2010 at 12:53 AM.
12 July 2010, 11:58 AM
#473
When I fitted the heads, I removed the valves, etc and cleaned everything in the parts washer at work.
Replaced the valve stem oil seals as well and removed any carbon deposits, I am paranoid about cleaning parts before they are refitted.
Replaced the valve stem oil seals as well and removed any carbon deposits, I am paranoid about cleaning parts before they are refitted.
12 July 2010, 09:45 PM
#476
Currently considering one possible option, engine build by Alan Jeffery.
Should I purchase a used closed deck block as the basis for the build instead of one of the three open deck blocks I now own ?
If I go for the stroker option, is the latest EJ257 (nitrided) crank 'double' cross drilled like the 'V9' JDM STi crank ?
Alan is kindly checking this out for me but I am impatient !
Will the brand new 10mm RCM oil pump I have be adequate or do I need the 11mm or even 12mm one (the modified 12mm ones cost a fortune !)
I want to get this spec right, it is not a huge amount compared to what some people on here spend on a new engine but my pockets aren't bottomless !
In other news, I fixed the central locking problem on the Rover at a cost of............Nil !
I really don't want to get rid of the Subaru, I have become very attached to it, especially since I decided to do the spanner work myself.
Common sense says to fix it as cost effectively as possible and sell it but if common sense dictated our actions we'd probably all take the bus instead !
I like the car, the colour, the sound, the little personal touches that make it mine.
Should I purchase a used closed deck block as the basis for the build instead of one of the three open deck blocks I now own ?
If I go for the stroker option, is the latest EJ257 (nitrided) crank 'double' cross drilled like the 'V9' JDM STi crank ?
Alan is kindly checking this out for me but I am impatient !
Will the brand new 10mm RCM oil pump I have be adequate or do I need the 11mm or even 12mm one (the modified 12mm ones cost a fortune !)
I want to get this spec right, it is not a huge amount compared to what some people on here spend on a new engine but my pockets aren't bottomless !
In other news, I fixed the central locking problem on the Rover at a cost of............Nil !
I really don't want to get rid of the Subaru, I have become very attached to it, especially since I decided to do the spanner work myself.
Common sense says to fix it as cost effectively as possible and sell it but if common sense dictated our actions we'd probably all take the bus instead !
I like the car, the colour, the sound, the little personal touches that make it mine.
13 July 2010, 09:52 PM
#479
Hello the voices, my goodness his thread has been going on for a year and i would have been on deep depression by now,
well alan jeffries is a very reputable company as well as lateral, rcm api etc. the amount that you have spent you could have got a 2.1 rebuild but thats how we grease monkeys learn and im happy that you picked up the spanner and got stuck in.
i would go for a cdb 2.1 rebuild and im afraid that you need to see the doctor as you certainly have the subaru bug.
well alan jeffries is a very reputable company as well as lateral, rcm api etc. the amount that you have spent you could have got a 2.1 rebuild but thats how we grease monkeys learn and im happy that you picked up the spanner and got stuck in.
i would go for a cdb 2.1 rebuild and im afraid that you need to see the doctor as you certainly have the subaru bug.
13 July 2010, 09:52 PM
#480
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Well it sounds like you have to keep the car then because you would regret selling it.
I think I would go for the CDB and sell the open deck ones as they're just not as strong and you might as well get the job done in one hit so you can go for as much power as you see fit
I was advised to use an STI 10 crank in mine whatever shape that is.
Not a 100% sure on the oil pump myself hopefully someone else can help.
I do know that entrusting your car to Alan is a smart move though
I think I would go for the CDB and sell the open deck ones as they're just not as strong and you might as well get the job done in one hit so you can go for as much power as you see fit
I was advised to use an STI 10 crank in mine whatever shape that is.
Not a 100% sure on the oil pump myself hopefully someone else can help.
I do know that entrusting your car to Alan is a smart move though