Martin2005

Dave I had you pegged as a 'free market' Tory type, it appears I was wrong (not for the first time). So just to confirm you believe in barriers and protectionism?

davegtt

Paul, Many many people do head off to Dubai for £100k a year before coming back. You may not have been away that long on a 6 month contract for example. I dont know. The point is still relevant.

I still think everything is blown well out of porportion regarding immigrants claiming. The majority are working. Where are the facts that tell me how many are here and how many are unemployed? How long do they have to be unemployed for before they should be shipped back? A day after theyve just lost their job? It doesnt matter does it, you'd just want to see them shipped out regardless. Thats the point, its nothing to do with them being unemployed. Maybe there are a few people out there that feel that way but I dare say 90% of them 78% of people who want them out are petty racist idiots who probably dont even know their own origins of decent and probably claiming benefits themselves regardless.

p.s. Im sorry to hear you wasnt regarded as unemployed because you were previously listed as self employed. That does stink.

spireite

Key words being TO WORK , this thead is about jobless immigrants

davegtt

I understand that, you think the majority of immigrants come here not to work? And anyway, my point was more about the 78% of people that want them out

spireite

I think a good proportion come here for the benefits and not to work .

Martin2005

Well thinking that, and that actually being the case are not necessarily the same thing are they?

davegtt

Well I think you are most probably wrong.

Go buy a kebab, all foriegn works, go to a corner shop (joke) most factories producing packaged food - foriegn workers. Alot of my elecy mates are now working with foriegn people. You go to McDonalds and Burger King, MANY foriegn workers. Hardly claiming benefits are they? I actually know alot of immigrants and honestly, dont know any that are claiming benefits at present.

Martin2005

Did you not say something to the effect of 'British jobs for British workers' earlier or did I imagine that? That a pretty protectionist and anti-free market statement is it not?

Or are your views more from the narrow-minded and Xenophobic wing of the Tory Party?

jonc

...a taste of their own medicine?

Poles want cut on foreign workers | Metro.co.uk

The Zohan

Martin & Dave, to clarify,

You feel that Immigrant workers no matter how long they have been here, matter of days to years shoulld be allowed to stay in the UK if they do not have work or a means of supporting themsleves other than claiming UK provided benefits?

Do you feel that there should be a qulaifying period, say min of 2 years continuous employment or not Should the be entitled as soon as they work a day here in the uk?

davegtt

No you cant clarify that because I havent said anything like that. My opinion on here was clear, that I think the majority of Brits are probably more racist towards any "outsiders" who come here, regardless of whether they are working or not.

If you want clarity on what I expect from the British Government to offer to immigrants, then Ive always maintained we should have a system similar to Canada's. Come here, work and provide for yourself/family for 3 years solid before you can claim anything from our system. Otherwise, no thank you. At no point did I say I was happy for someone to pop over here and the following day get given a house and benefits. That doesnt happen anyway... Maybe there have been the odd case documented of this happening but usually illegals get held up in a hostel type environment (we have one near here actually, think it used to be an old prison or school. I cant quite remember) until their future is decided.

The Zohan

Calm down a bit, i am not trying to put words in you mouth - i was trying to establish where you are coming from and what you feel is right/acceptable.

The Canada example seems fair enough to me

davegtt

Im calm, I was just using assertive words to make myself clear

hodgy0_2

Dubai

Has a shocking record in the treatment of immigrant workers, I would be ashamed to live in a country that did a tenth of what Dubai do

but then they are mostly very low paid bulding workers from Asia, so they probably dont count!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Martin2005

So who's words are these then ....

'Anyway, on the subject of those that do pay tax etc, they shouldn't have got the job in the first place if there was a Brit. who could have done it. *WE* (the British) are stupid if we let that happen.'

The reason that the crass statement 'British job for British workers' is wrong unworkable is simple, our economy doesn't work like that, nor do most other developed economies, unless you have open labour markets, employers have to compromise, that leads to a lack of competitveness. Employers want the best people and at the best price, it's a simple trade off (obviously we need to have some constraints on that, and yes some of those could be deemed to be anti-competitive, like the minimum wage)

Markets these days are becoming more and more global, lots of British people have figured that out a long time ago and are now carving out a living in Europe, and beyond.

Martin2005

If the poll in the FT used the question 'do you believe that immigrants with who don't work and have no intention to work should be able to claim benefits in the UK' - then I would be in the 78%.
If the question was ' if a previously working and tax contributing immigrant worker becomes unemployed should they be able to claim benefits - then I would be in the 22%

I think that decency plays a huge role, I don't know what the precise criteria should be, but I believe immigrants get a pretty tough press here, especially given that they have had a MASSIVELY positive on our economy over the past 10 years.

The Zohan

Thanks - to be clear - if they had worked a day for arguments sake then they would qualify or the Canada example of 24 months would seem fair???

The Zohan

I found this hard to live with, most live in huge barrack blocks in the desert hidden from view, little facilities and often problems with water and sanitation and the occasional riot about conditions, poor buggers it must have been hell in that heat.

i remember one particular day watching the road being cleared after a coach carrying 50 or so workers jumped the central reservation of the SZ road a 10 lane motorway and landed with the soft roof exposed to oncoming traffic - it was hit by an artic. There where bits of workers bodies and blood everywhere...i am sure that they where replaced a few days later.

Still no job, no stay and no benefits - all knew the score and went knowing that.

The Zohan

I love it when you get assertive

Martin2005

I guess 2 years seems sensible, but if less than that and people have to pay rent and feed their kids, what do we do ..turn our backs, it's a tough one isn't it?

The Zohan

Send them home mate, harsh but what else can you do as it is we are seen as an easy touch and people head across the rest of europe to get to the UK as it is the best place to get benefits.

Eventually we will go brioke and end up with little or nothing for those who have lived here a long time and contributed with an expectation of beingl looked after - or we will get civil war...

Martin2005

Paul, we almost agreed with one another and then this!

We are not going to go broke because of immigrants claiming benefits, that smacks of cheap Daily Mailesque soundbites.

Why we have to blame all our ills on other I know not. You know if all immigrants left tomorrow, we'd still have all the same problems, nothing would of changed....well apart from the fact that we'd have lost a scapegoat.

Plus what would we do with the hundreds of thousands of repatronated Brits, who have to come home in the name of fairness, would we pay them benefits till they found a job?

We all want a fairer system, but a fairer system aint going to happen whilst we all stand around blaming one another all our ills.

scoobynutta555

Well TBH, I welcome any individual, regardless of colour/creed/religion etc, who come here sometimes thousands of miles away to reach this country. 99.9% of whom do so to gain meaningfull employment at a wage they would only dream about at home.

What does pee me off is the massive underclass of scum who were born here who lead a life of dole, tv, drugs and excuses. These types of idiots think they are due a free lunch for the rest of their lives and blame immigration (wrongly) for their lack of work.

hodgy0_2

I think the point is we have bigger problems in this country than a few immigrants -- what appals me is the entire towns in which you have generations that have never worked

Grandfather, father & son all spending a life on benefits


A poverty of aspiration – that’s the real issue

mad555

iTrader: (1)

You dont expect a British Goverment to put British people first.

c_maguire

What is this garbage?
This thread began with jobless migrants and the inference that they are probably a cost to the taxpayer that is unjustified.
It is a fact that there are a significant number of non-UK citizens currently here receiving varying levels of state benefits for one reason or another, including the extended families (non-UK citizens) of some individuals who have somehow 'become' UK citizens.
Were there reciprocal agreements that entitled authentic UK citizens (WASP's if you like) to state aid as necessary if living abroad, then just maybe your viewpoint would have more validity. How many expats do you think are living abroad and receiving benefits from their 'foster' country?
What chance do you think you have of getting state benefits in Pakistan as an out of work disciple of Polly Toynbee?

When was it exactly that we all got so bogged down in compassion here that we couldn't help ourselves and felt obliged to empathize with everyone less fortunate than we are?

Wise up. It's a one-way street, with the few truly needy come all the ****-takers and hangers-ons who will milk you for all they can. And this country is one big fat heifer. But the milk is becoming more precious right now, giving rise to a tendency towards protectionism. And why not?
Self-preservation is not a crime, it's common sense (something sadly absent in recent years).

Kevin

Martin2005

Well apart from completely missing the point of my previous post, top marks for yet more unsubstantiated rubbish.

If you are going to paint such a grim picture you might at least add some basic facts to back this up, or is just more right wing hubris?

hodgy0_2

didn't we fight a slighty more extreme version of this philosophy in 1939