dabow

iTrader: (19)

well, i'm know seeing red with scoobyclinic.

the pratts are trying to say there nothing wrong with the map. and its my turbo thats gone.

it spoils perfect, with no smoke???

well, how can i find out if its just the board thats not working properly?
im in that frame of mind to go up there and trash the place......

what do i do?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I don't think it could be your blower, as if it were then reverting back to the older ESL board wouldn't negate the problem. In the absence of any leaks, it must be a problem with the board or the mapping, surely?

Time for a second opinion I'd say!

Ns04

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

You need to explain things a little better.

You have 2 ESL boards?
1 works fine but not mapped for your mods?
1 mapped for your mods but works ****?

dabow

iTrader: (19)

ok, the older ep-rom board works perfect on boost, but with the mods. tops out at 0.8bar, (front mount ect)

the live map board, was new. and mapped saturday. they mapped it, but there was a problem where it was very laggy. the turbo woulden't release the boost till 4600rpm or after.

know yesterday, after changing the other board to check this. the boost is know not there. its like driving a standard uk turbo. but with no boost

on the esl site, it says something about 3d boost mapping. well, i'm getting none.

if i get some one else to look at it, its going to cost again.
is there anyway to check its not the board?

jimes

take it back to mapper, you paid for it after all!

dabow

iTrader: (19)

well, they have got back know. so se what he says
if its some thing to do with the car, hands up
my prob then.

but just points to the map
i dont know. may be its just me

dabow

iTrader: (19)

its know doing my head in.

took it back, but after an hour on the rollers. they coulent find any thing wrong with the car.

but after a treek, well i had to take the board out of the car.
boost spikes, then over boosts over 1.5 bar.

this is the thing, i've since fitted the older board. and the car runs perfect

they said it could be to do with the transmision, dont ask.
well im after a full either sti or p1 box/dif

they want to copy the map off the old board to the live map one, dont ask.
to me, its the map. but they are checking every other thing on the car

any other ideas what i can check......
i might even ask 'esl' if i can sent the board to him, so he can check for foults.

dabow

iTrader: (19)

right, i took it back. and after the day on the rollers, foyund nothing wrong with the car at all?

the ecu is perfect too.
now, the fueling and the air are perfect, but the boost is, well lets say its worse.

i had to take the board out the car as it was that bad.
i've got the older board in again, and every thing regards the boost?

its going back in this sat, but there saying its the board know.
i've asked esl to check the board out, but he hasent got back,

what can i really do know....

dabow

iTrader: (19)

well, thanks to jgm. i no longer have lag
the only problem i know have is....

this smile, i can not get it off my face
top job there mate.
thanks again

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

no problem

glad I was able to sort it.

Simon

RA Dunk

so it was the mapping all along then

dabow

iTrader: (19)

well, after jgm sorted the car out.
i desided to trading standards told them, and was told i changed the parts to sort the car out?

this was the reply:

Hi,OK if thats how you want to play it then all offers are withdrawn and I will see you in court, I have all copies of your liable posts and some inside information of what has been changed on your car since we last saw it, another reason you wont come here for a free rolling road session, you dont want us to see whats been changed
Cheers
Kev.

well, the only reason i dident want to take her back, is i know they would have plugged in to the ecu, to copy the map!

all this proves is how bad they really are, if they can not solve anything.
i still havent changed any part as yet, i will be. but all thats being changed was nothing to do with its boost what so ever, im putting a p1 box. and changed the dv, for a polished one is stead of the red one thats on it.

like i said. nothing to do with the boost.
i did say to them, i wouldn't post about them. but the way there acting.
some thing needs to be done about them

dabow

iTrader: (19)

(quote) pat.

Do you REALLY believe that if SC wanted to see your map the car would actually have to be on site and the ECU plugged into ? PMSL

dont know why pat deleted the post.
but in responce, yes i do.
when it took the car back the first time, it was just the lag. but then it was boost spiking
nearly damaged my engine.

sorry, pat. i know you have a good rep.
but it was the map that was wrong on my car.
and its about time kev put his dummy back in and faced it.

pat

A few reasons. The first was that it was written in the wrong tone. The second was that I was in a hurry to leave, I had a load of stuff that needed attention and I didn't have the time to re-word it. The third was that there were a few legal concepts I wasn't 100% happy with my understanding of. Finally at the time I didn't have the map.

There are two major reasons why it wouldn't be difficult to get the map. The first is that, contrary to popular misconception, us mappers do get on, despite what it may look like on the boards The second is a legal reason; if you (or Trading Standards) were to pursue the matter through the courts the defence would argue that the map that is in the car now COULD prove that the original map was not at fault, and it is unlikely that a request thereof would be denied by the court; in essence the court would compel you to provide it. Basically, then, you don't need to be concerned that SC might get the map if you were to bring your car on a rolling road day, because odds are stacked in that direction anyway.

Now, I come to this argument as an outsider. I didn't map the car initially, nor did I do the mapping on it later. My only involvement was to go out in the car and give an opinion, and to have a look at the map that was done to see if I could find anything wrong with it. In the first instance, the boost was indeed arriving late, and when it finally did, the car was flat with it, like it wanted more ignition advance, but the engine could not tolerate any more without knocking. In the latter case, I could find nothing in the map that could explain the lack of spool.

These issues are normally indicative of some type of mechanical problem, rather than a problem with the map. OK, if the wastegate duty was set to zero you'de expect very little boost, but even then it would not cause it to arrive late. If there was insufficient ignition advance then the boost would arrive earlier rather than later, but it would be flat. If the fuel was horrendously rich during spool then you could get a rich misfire but that would have been obvious on the dyno. The combination of symptoms would be difficult to create by mapping; ie even if I were to TRY to make it happen, I doubt I could. Just like I couldn't make the boost arrive at 1000RPM, or get 700 miles to a tank, there are just things that are mechanical limitations and no amount of mapping can achieve.

It would seem that there are some fairly irreconcilable differences between you and SC, but for my part I just want to get to the truth, whatever that may be. I am now one step closer in that quest and will be comparing the SC and JGM maps in fine detail to see if I can find anything in the differences that can explain the transformation. I will report on my findings once I've had an opportunity to do so.

It is just a shame that you chose to start a vendetta with SC, despite the fact they repaired your broken ESL board so you had more than a paperweight, spent some time trying to find the fault without charge, and didn't give them the opportunity to investigate the problem properly. The question in my mind, with regard to whether you are entitled to a partial refund, is whether they did the best job possible with a car that was not fit to map, or if they did a bad job with a perfectly healthy car. It is also a shame that you didn't have the original ESL board to hand to allow a back to back comparison between that map and the SC map.... what would you have said if the original board was fitted yet it had made no difference / made it worse, I wonder ? The reality is we will never know what might have been, but we will know what IS...

Cheers,

Pat.

dabow

iTrader: (19)

no, fair comment.
id never exspect the boost till at least the turbo had spooled up.

i did try to do as you said, but with andy being stuck and sticking to the transmission.
that dident help.

as i spoke to you before, all i wanted is to find out why things dident go to plan.
but all i got, was first piston scrish, then the turbo & finally the transmission.

non of this was your self or kev. it was andy.
since the turbo was recondition when i rebuilt the engine

when someone tells you some things wrong, but you know its not that
it gets your back up.

the first board i had (theolder esl one) seemed to boost early. but had no peak boost. peaking at 0.9 and got 277bhp on your rollers, once the newer one was mapped. it got 279bhp with as was 1.25bar.

but dident have the feel or anything.
im just unhappy with the way andy kept assumming this, that & the other was wrong.
he shouldn't have done that.

granted, he did solder the missing pin. but when there was no boost. taking the board out. it was just the plastic that was attached. so i did a proper jobby on it

but it still comes down to the fact, another mapper was able to solve this boost issue out and get 1.3bar with no issues.

pat

dabow,

Some things are still not making sense to me. Comparing both maps was enlightening, but I will refrain from commenting for the time being, it is only fair that I speak to both mappers involved first, however in the meantime perhaps you could confirm that I am reading the following correctly :

The way I am reading that is you went to SC, the new board was fitted and mapped, but the boost was arriving late. You then swapped back to the original ESL board as a sanity check and on that board the car made virtually no boost at all, causing it to feel like it's a UK car not a WRX ?

Then later you wrote :

So, again, if I am reading this right, the car started to overboost on the new ESL board, and knowing that it was OK on the original, you refitted it and the car drove fine again.

Putting these two together we end up with the following :

Car is working fine on original ESL board but you want more boost, so you buy a new ESL board and pop to SC to have it mapped to suit. SC repair and fit it, but then struggle to map it. Later on you sanity check it but the car still doesn't go right even on the original board. You refit the new ESL board and return to SC for a tweak, but later you find that the car is now overboosting, so as a safety precaution you re-fit the original ESL board, but now the car drives OK again.

To me this seems a little random. One minute it goes well on the original ESL board, the next it's like a UK car, then it goes well again. Do you recall when the car was boosting to 1.5 bar on the new board, whether this was at or over 4600 RPM, or whether it was happening lower down the rev range ?

Cheers,

Pat.

dabow

iTrader: (19)

no, every thing is right apart from once the old board was put back in. i had early boost and the car was runing good.

the main reason i changed the boards over in the first place, to which i only said to kev. was, the fueling was very rich. oh and the boost, it was kev i spoke to about this, and asked the best and cheapest option i had.

in the end i got the board direct from esl, but when fitting. one of the pins were missing
granted, andy sorted this. once that day was over the car mapped. i drove home, but just be for i left, andy exsplained that the car was very laggy. i found this to be true, but this wasent the case with the older esl board.

so once home, i changed them back over. every thing seemed to have sorted out. the boost was there. and the pulling torque to.

again, the solder andy did, wasent the best so i sorted this out my self.
i contacted the clinic asking this issue. but was told its my car. first this piston scrish
as i have sti forged pistons in there

this thread was then done. trying to find out what i could do about this piston issue.
but the more i looked the more it seemed imposable.
i contacted again & again. then it was the turbo that was the issue.
i was pulling my hear out. as this was reconditioned not long back. so i took it all to bits, finding nothing wrong.?

kev then said bring the car in, to which i did. i then spoke to you
all testing was done on the car, and nothing was found as a problem but still this lag problem.

andy then went out in her, and to me tryed to change some thing on the car, as on the way back, this is when the car started to boost spike really bad.
i had no choice but to stop the car, and change the boards back over.

but on contacting the clinic, all i got was its transmission probs?????
andy was so stuck on this. thats all he'd put it down to. with out even looking

the thing is, this was never an issue with the old board fitted.
but it was then kev spat his dummy out and told me to leave

blamming a thread for this.
even through he never read it as i had it deleted weeks before hand.
the worst that thread said was' id lost outon all that money spent and have to find another tuner!!!!

wow we. well, i did get some one else to have another crack
jgm, and he never found any issue with the boosting at all.
it know boost to 1.35 bar no issue. and releases the boost at 3600rpm.

thats how it all unfoldered.
the reason i put the board back in. was i was bring it back to the clinic
no other reason. there was talk about copying the map from the eprom board, sorting the fueling out

this never mapped as all what was blammed was the transmission
i even spoke to your self to get my head round this.
you said your self, if this was the issue the rollers would have pick it up. it dident
but andy still claimed this.

some thing in the map dident work with my car, i tried to help him out. i told him every mod done.

but the guy seems very stubban. wont listen to every one.
i said the coils were changed. and the fact most other main parts were to

non of these thread would have been done, if i had the proper advice. i was on here asking for it

not to call the clinic. but every time i went back, with out checking the car, there was another issue to point at. with out even looking

Adam@SC

Hi,
Posting using Adams log in..........

Let’s set the record straight.

We mapped your car on a supplied esl board, the car was quite laggy in feel but the boost, although slightly late was there, its just the car did nothing with it.
We ran out of time and asked you to pop back next Saturday when we would re-address it.

During the following week you swapped over the new esl board for your old one, E. mailing me to explain that it was better on the old board, but was now spiking on the new board, I replied "bring both boards so we can do a back to back and see what is going on".

You turned up as planned but without the other board, stating it was on E.bay.

Technicians were scrambled and your car strapped to the dyno, two guys spent the thick end of all day trying to find what was wrong, it was not a mapping issue it was mechanical, ideas were bounced around such as cracked turbo housings, air leaks, even transmission issues, to be fair we were struggling for ideas, Pat took a look and could not find anything wrong with the mapp, but was aware something was not as it should be.
There was no charge for this, even though it consumed the dyno and 2 sometimes 3 technicians most of the day.

During this time I found out that you were posting very bad press about us on a number of forums and giving us a verbal slagging at many Subaru meets, annoyed with this, after all our efforts, I refused to work on your car.

Since then you went elsewhere, magically the car is fine.

We have a copy of our mapp and a copy of the mapp now on your car, after studying both we can see only minor differences, in fact they are very similar, this adds to the confusion, JGM told me he could see nothing wrong with our map but decided to apply his mapp and adjust to suit your mods.

I support my staff wholeheartedly and at no time did Andy or indeed any one else state it was the turbo, or it was the transmission, they were simply ideas bounced around, had we got the chance to take a further look then we would have sorted the car, however when I see customers put off coming here by your liable posts I had no alternative but to close the door on you, your fault and you are still at it!

Following is a typical E mail from Dabow...

Quote....."after reading this, all i can say is. you have dug your self a bigger hole

how the hell can you come to me and say i've changed parts.
your a pratt.

just looks like what every one says about you is true.
you make excuses up all the time of whats really wrong with the cars

sorry, but aftrer this. you deserve to go down
and will be posting up just how much of a a-hole you really are.
you and your company is a shambles.
nothing was changed, and all the so called tossers who say parts were changed.
a-holes like you dont deserve to trade.

and if thats how you want it, lets dance".......unquote.

How on earth am I supposed to deal with that?

Regards
Kev

Damien.

iTrader: (1)

Ive been following this thread and I'm glad you've replied here Kev.

There's always two sides to a storey and until there both heard no one should pass judgement. In my opinion I am totally against slating on public forums especially when a company with a positive reputation such as yours is involved.

Hope this gets sorted and no more damaged is done.

On an off topic note, did that turbo downpipe gasket get back to you !

Julio Jordio

I cant believe that is a legitimate reponse from SC? I'D BE DISGUSTED!!!

owbow

you sure that red dv wasn't leaking boost away from the MAP sensor?

Adam@SC

Hi,
maybe you have not read the thread properly, this was my personal reply to David wells (Dabow) down my own E.mail in response to his threatening letters to me, one of which I have copied and pasted above.

Regards
Kev

dabow

iTrader: (19)

pitty the rest wasent on here, to
yes there two sides to every story.

and to put the record strait. i did have the second board on me. all kev said was leave and never come back.


so where do you get i put it on e-bay.
in the end, i sold the board on here.....

this issue will never be sorted out.
becouse the clinic wont put there hand in the air and say sorry!!!
we made a mastake.

it was on the other hand sorted out via another mapper.
the point is, once a mastake is done with the clinic, they never own up to it.
if they did, this thread would have ended up ages ago.

there always to sides.
but the other side is one sided.
i did every thing that was said, and look what happend.
out of pocket, pulling my hair out, for what.
just becouse the clinic have done around 60% perfection.
they should meet all the customers saticfaction.

the person who sorted the issue out even had a word with then.
and they still in sist in twisting every thing

untill i get a big sorry for there mastake.
and a part refund for the mess they did
this will never end, and will hang as a shadow
untill this mapping issue. what other posts did i put about them....

non, that should give an idea that may be its true.
+ all the others they have done this sort of thing to

sorry. but this thread was about the lag.
all the clinic has said is there was a problem.

but the fact its no longer there, as the other mapper mapped it proper, also points to the fact they never did this proper
the facts are all there

dabow

iTrader: (19)

and the reason i replys that message, is becouse there trying to make out i change engine parts before jgm mapped her

who would put some thing like that, he put:

Hi,
OK if thats how you want to play it then all offers are withdrawn and I will see you in court, I have all copies of your liable posts and some inside information of what has been changed on your car since we last saw it, another reason you wont come here for a free rolling road session, you dont want us to see whats been changed
Cheers
Kev

well, i put a-hole in stead of the stronger word. i was kind
what would anyone do if they had spent all that cash, then some one saying its naf with out even checking.

like i put, the car was on there rollers for a day. there was no problem
it still comes down to the fact, the first board worked fines, and the other board mapped by jgm worked fine.

but they couldn't do it???

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Ok, I think both parties have had their say and this is going around in circles and turning into a slanging match now.

Clearly there is quite a bit of bad blood here and the suggestion of legal action, so I'm locking this thread and hope that both parties can resolve their differences off the board.

Ns04