JGM VS SCOOBY CLINIC
18 November 2008, 06:04 AM
#121
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Pat maps for us at APi, as does Bob Rawle on certain cars and I am happy to use either as they both have excellent experience on mapping and their input when things get tricky and the odd glitch comes up is well worth having.
We map on the road as l am very conscious of driveability. I was trained on a rolling road more years ago than I care to mention on here and for certain jobs they are necessary.
If you want the " numbers game," then a set of rollers every time. There is more than one occasion that has happened to me, and every other mapper I suspect, where a car has been described as " awesome and the fastest thing on earth " and then been condemned as rubbish because it didn't reach a number on the rollers that the owner was expecting. " But how does it drive?" is always the response.
As for the " ginger kid " at the Clinic he is actually about 27, or something, he is one of those that just looks a lot younger than he is. AND I seriously doubt whether any mapper /tuner would take the car out and park up for a ***, whilst pretending to be working - we are all too busy for that to happen. And for Pat to stop and eat would take a lot more than 30 minutes ....
It seems to me that any mention on here of the Clinic lately, seems to become a witch hunt. All of us have our " moments " when things go bad and we all try to get things back on line the best way possible. However the statement that you " cannot please all of the people all of the time" is never truer.
As for tuners and mappers - go with who you are most comfortable with in terms of personal feeling. I.E. Who gives you the most confidence on the phone, that understands where you want to be.
Bob rarely maps on rollers, JGM rarely maps on rollers Horses for courses.
David APi
We map on the road as l am very conscious of driveability. I was trained on a rolling road more years ago than I care to mention on here and for certain jobs they are necessary.
If you want the " numbers game," then a set of rollers every time. There is more than one occasion that has happened to me, and every other mapper I suspect, where a car has been described as " awesome and the fastest thing on earth " and then been condemned as rubbish because it didn't reach a number on the rollers that the owner was expecting. " But how does it drive?" is always the response.
As for the " ginger kid " at the Clinic he is actually about 27, or something, he is one of those that just looks a lot younger than he is. AND I seriously doubt whether any mapper /tuner would take the car out and park up for a ***, whilst pretending to be working - we are all too busy for that to happen. And for Pat to stop and eat would take a lot more than 30 minutes ....
It seems to me that any mention on here of the Clinic lately, seems to become a witch hunt. All of us have our " moments " when things go bad and we all try to get things back on line the best way possible. However the statement that you " cannot please all of the people all of the time" is never truer.
As for tuners and mappers - go with who you are most comfortable with in terms of personal feeling. I.E. Who gives you the most confidence on the phone, that understands where you want to be.
Bob rarely maps on rollers, JGM rarely maps on rollers Horses for courses.
David APi
I do hope that SC are getting better at this. I've been to mappers where things haven't turned out right and of all of them the most honest, down to earth best mapping I have had is by Paul at Zen.
Note I have not been to alot like Andy F, Bob R, JGM, etc but I have been to the clinic and others...
Paul maps on rollers, takes car for a spin, iron's out stuff on rollers, then takes car for spin for final confirmation (thats in basic.....) and I do know the basics and will be at all the courses and have been looking at my own car (autronics).
I have been out to Zen where Paul has come back to me and said I couldn't get as much bhp as I thought but it now drives alright. At first I was disappointed for not getting the 'big' number but then as soon as I drive it, the story is finished, fullstop. Wow!!! Always spot on....
18 November 2008, 10:30 PM
#122
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It's interesting to read the usual "dyno v road mapping" stuff, but the point is being missed big style.
It's all in the word "mapping"
When Darwin made his tour of newly discovered territories, he visited the sites, and used data obtained to finely draw an accurate picture as possible of the topography. It's called "mapping" and if you don't visit all the points of interest, you might as well not have bothered, as you could have missed something really interesting.
Being basic here, an ignition map, for example, consists of a 3D grid containing rpm and load variations with values found when you draw a line to the point of intersection, in exactly the same way as figuring out where you are using an ordnance survey map. If you want to map your ignition, you need to be able to visit the load sites, and obtain the correct ignition timing value for your needs. If you don't go there, you can't do it. You can only visit all the load sites by running the engine in every possible combination of rpm and load, and accurately noting the results. Interpolation accepted!
Ignoring correction details for a second, there is only one ignition value you would wish to find at any one point, and that's the correct one. It doesn't matter a monkeys if you are using a dyno or any other method of testing as long as you visit the load site, and insert the correct value.
I say you need a combination of dyno and road testing to be able to visit all the load sites. Period.
It's all in the word "mapping"
When Darwin made his tour of newly discovered territories, he visited the sites, and used data obtained to finely draw an accurate picture as possible of the topography. It's called "mapping" and if you don't visit all the points of interest, you might as well not have bothered, as you could have missed something really interesting.
Being basic here, an ignition map, for example, consists of a 3D grid containing rpm and load variations with values found when you draw a line to the point of intersection, in exactly the same way as figuring out where you are using an ordnance survey map. If you want to map your ignition, you need to be able to visit the load sites, and obtain the correct ignition timing value for your needs. If you don't go there, you can't do it. You can only visit all the load sites by running the engine in every possible combination of rpm and load, and accurately noting the results. Interpolation accepted!
Ignoring correction details for a second, there is only one ignition value you would wish to find at any one point, and that's the correct one. It doesn't matter a monkeys if you are using a dyno or any other method of testing as long as you visit the load site, and insert the correct value.
I say you need a combination of dyno and road testing to be able to visit all the load sites. Period.
18 November 2008, 10:49 PM
#123
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It's interesting to read the usual "dyno v road mapping" stuff, but the point is being missed big style.
It's all in the word "mapping"
When Darwin made his tour of newly discovered territories, he visited the sites, and used data obtained to finely draw an accurate picture as possible of the topography. It's called "mapping" and if you don't visit all the points of interest, you might as well not have bothered, as you could have missed something really interesting.
Being basic here, an ignition map, for example, consists of a 3D grid containing rpm and load variations with values found when you draw a line to the point of intersection, in exactly the same way as figuring out where you are using an ordnance survey map. If you want to map your ignition, you need to be able to visit the load sites, and obtain the correct ignition timing value for your needs. If you don't go there, you can't do it. You can only visit all the load sites by running the engine in every possible combination of rpm and load, and accurately noting the results. Interpolation accepted!
Ignoring correction details for a second, there is only one ignition value you would wish to find at any one point, and that's the correct one. It doesn't matter a monkeys if you are using a dyno or any other method of testing as long as you visit the load site, and insert the correct value.
I say you need a combination of dyno and road testing to be able to visit all the load sites. Period.
It's all in the word "mapping"
When Darwin made his tour of newly discovered territories, he visited the sites, and used data obtained to finely draw an accurate picture as possible of the topography. It's called "mapping" and if you don't visit all the points of interest, you might as well not have bothered, as you could have missed something really interesting.
Being basic here, an ignition map, for example, consists of a 3D grid containing rpm and load variations with values found when you draw a line to the point of intersection, in exactly the same way as figuring out where you are using an ordnance survey map. If you want to map your ignition, you need to be able to visit the load sites, and obtain the correct ignition timing value for your needs. If you don't go there, you can't do it. You can only visit all the load sites by running the engine in every possible combination of rpm and load, and accurately noting the results. Interpolation accepted!
Ignoring correction details for a second, there is only one ignition value you would wish to find at any one point, and that's the correct one. It doesn't matter a monkeys if you are using a dyno or any other method of testing as long as you visit the load site, and insert the correct value.
I say you need a combination of dyno and road testing to be able to visit all the load sites. Period.
The dyno is a very very useful tool.. but mapping load sites you will never encounter is not really a valid reason for using it.. imho
Simon
18 November 2008, 10:57 PM
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lol.. it's like laying a trap then finding a mouse in it!
My point is about tuning and what it's all about, something that's missed in the verbiage. You know what I'm on about Simon, but you can't afford to agree with me can you?
My point is about tuning and what it's all about, something that's missed in the verbiage. You know what I'm on about Simon, but you can't afford to agree with me can you?
19 November 2008, 12:13 AM
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Not sure I understand the
but you can't afford to agree with me can you?
you need a combination of dyno and road testing to be able to visit all the load sites. Period.
Simon
19 November 2008, 09:03 AM
#127
I'd be interested to see you getting high load at very low rpm (although not on my car 
). There is huge parts of my map that are NEVER visited nor have never been visited in 24 months of logging of it in all forms of driving.
I find the thing is to understand what should be there based on an intelligent view on what you have found elsewhere. Interpolating as well as extrapolating.
Static conditions are one thing but they cannot account for dynamics. Just because one cell produces the most power with xyz ignition timing in it regardless of neighbouring cells means thats the value I would want to be in there. Feel has a lot to do with it in my experience and you cant 'feel' on the dyno.
Sometimes, less than theoretically ideal figures should be used to account for useage of car, components, petrol availability or the owners other half occasionally putting in 95 ron because she/he has a 5p tesco voucher.
I have used a dyno a few times to tune/map and found it useful to highlight areas where power (on the dyno) is dipping but it doesnt 'necessarily' mean that the dip is there in the real world.
Just my 2p worth.
). There is huge parts of my map that are NEVER visited nor have never been visited in 24 months of logging of it in all forms of driving.I find the thing is to understand what should be there based on an intelligent view on what you have found elsewhere. Interpolating as well as extrapolating.
Static conditions are one thing but they cannot account for dynamics. Just because one cell produces the most power with xyz ignition timing in it regardless of neighbouring cells means thats the value I would want to be in there. Feel has a lot to do with it in my experience and you cant 'feel' on the dyno.
Sometimes, less than theoretically ideal figures should be used to account for useage of car, components, petrol availability or the owners other half occasionally putting in 95 ron because she/he has a 5p tesco voucher.
I have used a dyno a few times to tune/map and found it useful to highlight areas where power (on the dyno) is dipping but it doesnt 'necessarily' mean that the dip is there in the real world.
Just my 2p worth.
19 November 2008, 10:41 AM
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Yes but,
Simon's position and ours are no different, allowing for the fact that he has to hire a dyno when he needs one, the same as anybody else who doesn't own one. We all use whatever is at our disposal, unless we are just tweaking base maps. I still detect this feeling, engendered on this site and others, by vested interests, that if you own a dyno, and use it even occasionally, you are in some way inferior to someone who doesn't have one.
Whatever you feel, driving virtually or otherwise, it still comes down to the numbers in the boxes, and nothing else.
Simon's position and ours are no different, allowing for the fact that he has to hire a dyno when he needs one, the same as anybody else who doesn't own one. We all use whatever is at our disposal, unless we are just tweaking base maps. I still detect this feeling, engendered on this site and others, by vested interests, that if you own a dyno, and use it even occasionally, you are in some way inferior to someone who doesn't have one.
Whatever you feel, driving virtually or otherwise, it still comes down to the numbers in the boxes, and nothing else.
19 November 2008, 10:59 AM
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Pat was telling me that if you rely upon a rolling road map on a 2.5 conversion, you can get a situation where it is dangerously lean in one mid range area, when you drive the car on the road.
One of our 2.5 converted cars that we look after, went to xxxxx for a rolling road test. They told him that it was nearly 40 hp short of where we knew it to be. They offered to ' correct it ' and by taking out boost, reducing the timing and weakening the mixture - found him 30 of the missing hp. I don't think so.......
Anyway, The angry owner arrived here calling me all sorts of names and we had a frank discussion about the people who had just ' mapped ' his car.
Pat went out on the road with him, showed him the fault, demonstrated the det level and restored our original map, proving that he had been had. The customer left delighted, thanking us all and apologising for the show of ill temper. The map they created on their rollers was dangerous and my point to the owner was; Who would have accepted responsibility for the broken engine when it went bang? I wouldn't, as we didn't map it and the map was wrong, they wouldn't [ they went broke anyway ].
The point is, that their only input was to disturb a perfectly good map by showing a dodgy figure from the rollers and ' trawling a net ' for work..
I AM NOT SUGGESTING FOR ONE MINUTE THAT ANY OF US IN THIS DISCUSSION ON HERE WOULD DO THAT......
Our customer in question, is fiercely loyal to us and is now much wiser about the goings on with rolling roads.
Road and dyno is a solution, not the, but it is always horses for courses.
David APi
One of our 2.5 converted cars that we look after, went to xxxxx for a rolling road test. They told him that it was nearly 40 hp short of where we knew it to be. They offered to ' correct it ' and by taking out boost, reducing the timing and weakening the mixture - found him 30 of the missing hp. I don't think so.......
Anyway, The angry owner arrived here calling me all sorts of names and we had a frank discussion about the people who had just ' mapped ' his car.
Pat went out on the road with him, showed him the fault, demonstrated the det level and restored our original map, proving that he had been had. The customer left delighted, thanking us all and apologising for the show of ill temper. The map they created on their rollers was dangerous and my point to the owner was; Who would have accepted responsibility for the broken engine when it went bang? I wouldn't, as we didn't map it and the map was wrong, they wouldn't [ they went broke anyway ].
The point is, that their only input was to disturb a perfectly good map by showing a dodgy figure from the rollers and ' trawling a net ' for work..
I AM NOT SUGGESTING FOR ONE MINUTE THAT ANY OF US IN THIS DISCUSSION ON HERE WOULD DO THAT......
Our customer in question, is fiercely loyal to us and is now much wiser about the goings on with rolling roads.
Road and dyno is a solution, not the, but it is always horses for courses.
David APi
19 November 2008, 11:30 AM
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Well, so far, we have Simon and David and Dynamix and ourselves all agreeing that a combination of dyno and road testing is best!
Excellent.
Like I said, the numbers in the boxes have to be correct, and the example used by David shows what happens when they aren't.
As to paying for the dyno, I also have to pay for premises, staff, and plenty of other equipment the same as anybody else running an established business. I don't think APi or Roger Clark or Zen or even Prodrive would get far if they flogged all the stuff and went back to the garden shed. As it happens, we don't charge any more to map a car than anyone else, we just offer an all round package.
Bear in mind there is life outside of Subarus, and as David said, horses for courses.
Excellent.
Like I said, the numbers in the boxes have to be correct, and the example used by David shows what happens when they aren't.
As to paying for the dyno, I also have to pay for premises, staff, and plenty of other equipment the same as anybody else running an established business. I don't think APi or Roger Clark or Zen or even Prodrive would get far if they flogged all the stuff and went back to the garden shed. As it happens, we don't charge any more to map a car than anyone else, we just offer an all round package.
Bear in mind there is life outside of Subarus, and as David said, horses for courses.
19 November 2008, 11:39 AM
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19 November 2008, 01:01 PM
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hmm interesting thread , This is my view over the last 8 years of jap car mapping ive had. These are my views on the whole dyno mapping and road mapping.
Ive had various jap cars from 250bhp mr2 turbo, 450bhp 300zx , 320bhp Impreza WRX RA, 380bhp evo 7 , and currently a 660bhp evo 2rs.
Ive used around 7-8 different mappers over the years including Pat hepborn, john dixon , owen development , norris designs etc.
I for one would by no means like to map my car on the road anymore. Ive had every car ive had at least attempted to be mapped on the road but Its always done on the rollers now and normally takes 1-2 FULL days for a full in depth proper map. Things like constant speeds in all gears which I cant see ever being done on the road. Its always mappers saying " ok foot to the floor now " or "try and hold at this rpm" which they have just a few seconds to map around that input then will ask you to do it again. Then you get a car in front or you realize the speed your hitting and you back off. I guess it all depends on what ur using the car for . In my case its a road legal track car, again uses alot of sustained high revving 3rd-5th gear pulls which you just cant simulate on the road however on the dyno dynamic rollers you can , you can also set the rollers to hold certain RPM for you .
Not just that but again its a dangerous game on the road and EVERY single road mapping session ive had or even been in the car at the time whilst others are getting mapped involved breaking the speed limits/laws etc.
Ok im no angel but this is obviously dangerous to the health of your licence for 1 lol.
Secondly , almost all road mapping sessions ive been involved with have taken around a max of 3hrs a car id guess.
Do you really think you can get a full in depth map of the car in this space of time ?? I personally dont. I understand you can get your map adjusted or tweaked maybe in that space of time but not a full from scratch map.
Again things that cant be done are cold start values. So you have a road map done and drive home..big grin on your face from the new found performance. Next morning go to start it and idle is hunting , maybe stalls etc etc. Ive had this numerous time on road mapping with always the comments bring it back and we can tweak it. This is obviously never ideal , having to trek back to the mapper again. Ive noticed this Alot more with full standalone ecu's rather than just remaps of stock ecu's
Every time ive had the car mapped since , Its taken 1-2 complete days to map it. Then normally leave the car there so that the cold start values can be mapped properly in the morning as you prob only have 10-15 mins max to get this fully done from cold.
These are just my personal views from what i have experienced. It may be the case you can have a 30 min map and all be hunky dorey but depends how thorough you want to be . Personally if im paying for a full map of my car at hundreds of pounds , I want it done once and done right.
Finally its also the case of "IF" something goes wrong whilst your out your pretty screwed, like missfires, fuel pressure etc unless you like working on your car at the side of the road and have a boot full of tools. It just seems a more throrough and safer enviroment on a roller.
Ive had various jap cars from 250bhp mr2 turbo, 450bhp 300zx , 320bhp Impreza WRX RA, 380bhp evo 7 , and currently a 660bhp evo 2rs.
Ive used around 7-8 different mappers over the years including Pat hepborn, john dixon , owen development , norris designs etc.
I for one would by no means like to map my car on the road anymore. Ive had every car ive had at least attempted to be mapped on the road but Its always done on the rollers now and normally takes 1-2 FULL days for a full in depth proper map. Things like constant speeds in all gears which I cant see ever being done on the road. Its always mappers saying " ok foot to the floor now " or "try and hold at this rpm" which they have just a few seconds to map around that input then will ask you to do it again. Then you get a car in front or you realize the speed your hitting and you back off. I guess it all depends on what ur using the car for . In my case its a road legal track car, again uses alot of sustained high revving 3rd-5th gear pulls which you just cant simulate on the road however on the dyno dynamic rollers you can , you can also set the rollers to hold certain RPM for you .
Not just that but again its a dangerous game on the road and EVERY single road mapping session ive had or even been in the car at the time whilst others are getting mapped involved breaking the speed limits/laws etc.
Ok im no angel but this is obviously dangerous to the health of your licence for 1 lol.
Secondly , almost all road mapping sessions ive been involved with have taken around a max of 3hrs a car id guess.
Do you really think you can get a full in depth map of the car in this space of time ?? I personally dont. I understand you can get your map adjusted or tweaked maybe in that space of time but not a full from scratch map.
Again things that cant be done are cold start values. So you have a road map done and drive home..big grin on your face from the new found performance. Next morning go to start it and idle is hunting , maybe stalls etc etc. Ive had this numerous time on road mapping with always the comments bring it back and we can tweak it. This is obviously never ideal , having to trek back to the mapper again. Ive noticed this Alot more with full standalone ecu's rather than just remaps of stock ecu's
Every time ive had the car mapped since , Its taken 1-2 complete days to map it. Then normally leave the car there so that the cold start values can be mapped properly in the morning as you prob only have 10-15 mins max to get this fully done from cold.
These are just my personal views from what i have experienced. It may be the case you can have a 30 min map and all be hunky dorey but depends how thorough you want to be . Personally if im paying for a full map of my car at hundreds of pounds , I want it done once and done right.
Finally its also the case of "IF" something goes wrong whilst your out your pretty screwed, like missfires, fuel pressure etc unless you like working on your car at the side of the road and have a boot full of tools. It just seems a more throrough and safer enviroment on a roller.
Last edited by kgs; 19 November 2008 at 01:37 PM.
19 November 2008, 01:17 PM
#136
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I just realised what I said earlier! ("life without Subarus")
It's like walking into certain Manchester pubs with a blue and white scarf on !
It's like walking into certain Manchester pubs with a blue and white scarf on !
19 November 2008, 01:42 PM
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We just use a lower gear, we're testing the engine after all.
19 November 2008, 02:55 PM
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Alan,
Your comments above are sound and ring true to me, you have premises and staff to pay for, please dont take my slightly tongue in cheek remark to be anti Engine Tuner, they are not.
It was more highlighting the fact, nothing sinister.
Your comments above are sound and ring true to me, you have premises and staff to pay for, please dont take my slightly tongue in cheek remark to be anti Engine Tuner, they are not.
It was more highlighting the fact, nothing sinister.
19 November 2008, 07:33 PM
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My eyebrows went up at the whole thread actually, as you can't compare the two. It's a bit like saying Apple v Orange. They have totally different businesses and strategies. Of course there is a place for both ends of the spectrum, as not every car gets away with just mapping when it really needs repair and rebuild, and not every car needs a workshop or dyno to set it up.
It's unusual, being practical about it, for us to have a car in for mapping that doesn't actually need a mechanic to get at it first.
That's when a workshop and a selection of experienced chaps comes in handy!
19 November 2008, 10:49 PM
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It is always all about the numbers in the boxes (map) but I think there are more than one way to skin a cat, both methods and solutions and wanted / desired outcomes - but the focus in my view is the customers satisfaction in the car.. rather than just getting xxxbhp and xxxlb.
Some people don't want to drop their car off and come back to pay the bill and get a dyno print out..
Some people want the car to drive in a particular way and want to be involved..
For example last week I mapped a car that had been mapped 3times previously on the rollers by someone else.. he was not happy with the result.. yet power and torque figures were within reason as expected..
It was an absolute pleasure to map it.. on the road.. the owner was wanting the car to drive how he wanted it too... not just produce peak bhp and peak lb figures.. it still did but it now drives how he wanted it. It was great to see his excitment as the car transformed and evolved into exactly what he wanted, it did end up with 30bhp more and similar lb to it started with but the way it drove was so so different.
Some people do want to drop the car off and just pick it up with a dyno print out with the numbers they wanted on.. hence I do both road and roller mapping.
I think anyone who fully believes on road fuel it is not possible to get the best out of the car mapping on the road is blinkered..
I mapped Terry's time attack car late at night before a round of TA, due to time to sort stuff on the car it was not ready until the night before, and so it was just mapped on vpower.
After that TA round we put it on the dyno and it made 570bhp and I tried to tweak the map on the rollers but could get no more out of it and was perfectly happy with the map.. so we then went onto the race fuel map.. which you need a dyno for as you are not knock limited and therefore need to see the power / lb output to know what timnig to run.
Simon
Last edited by Jolly Green Monster; 19 November 2008 at 10:59 PM.
22 November 2008, 07:46 PM
#149
My apologies