harj

Higer Tax Rate to earners over £100K?????? WHY WHY WHY????????

Policies like this make me glad im not in the UK all the time! the Tax rate @ 40% is high enough let alone more!

Gary Foster

Isn't it more than 40% once you've paid NI (employers and employees) though ? more like over half.

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gary Foster:
<B>Isn't it more than 40% once you've paid NI (employers and employees) though ? more like over half.[/quote]

...and some!

Altogether 65% of my gross wage last year went in direct and indirect tax!

robski

but there is no NI once you are in the 40% band!?

unless your self emplyed, not sure how the numbers work on that

anyway, I said circa £100K. Less than 2% of the population earn more than £100K, so you are talking the very top few.

there has to be a point somewhere that is deemed reasonable. I all for taxing fairly heavily above that reasonable level myself. (even tho I am true blue).

robski

robski

OOOOOooooo, 1 I forgot earlier.

They should ensure that all 4x4s pass them same tests as "normal" cars. They get some exemptions as they are for off road use, but now they are primarily used on the road, they should take the same tests.

robski

Gary Foster

Why ?

I've not heard any arguments for this. ie why people on high salaries should pay proportionately more of their wages as tax.

(And 'because they can afford it' is not IMO a reasoned argument, doesn't make it right - just a vote winner)

(Ps I'm not in the 100K plus bracket, possible I may be one day though I guess)

harj

I see it as a blow to higher earners, this is quite distressing as they say "The more you earn the more you spend" not really my problem though as Offshore does the trick.

Gary Foster

'The more you earn the more you spend'

Thought thats why we pay VAT ? (must watch that vid the Customs & Exise sent me) so that base would already be covered.

I'm sure I'm not allowed in the country much if I went offshore. (Wish *I* was an accountant :0 )

robski

Gary,

I agree, and maybe I will as well, who can say.

Yu are never going to please everyone with tax. Should everyone pay say £10K a year?
Or all pay say 25% of salary, no lower limits etc? Its impossible to make it so tat everyone is happy.

We all want to pay less tax tho.

As someone who is going to be loosing 1 of our 2 incomes, plus have higher expenditure I like the look of the French system. They add all of the families income together, then they look at the number of people dependant on that income, so if you are married thats 2, then .5 for each of the first children, and an extra 1 for the third.
So a family of 5 would have a deendancy ratio of 4 on that income, a single person would be 1, so the single person would pay more tax. I hate to say it, but the French have got something right for once!!

robski

JoeyDeacon

Robski,

You state that under the french system you pay more tax if you are single if you have no dependents.

Slightly unfair that I would be penalised because myself and my girlfriend live together but are not lucky enough to be blessed with children/stupid enough to have any children (delete as appropriate).

A government that discourages all the layabouts, scroungers and assylum seekers would definitely get my vote. This country is the soft touch of the world and everyone knows it.

The government should be encouraging people to get off their **** and earn a living for themselves not discouraging them by charging huge amounts of tax. It seems that if you do nothing except sit at home all day watching the Royale Family, smoking and breeding then you pretty much get given everything you want.

I am a fan on the New Statesman (Late 80's/Early 90's comedy staring Rik Mayal) and I hate to say it but I actually agree with a lot of his policies (Especially sterilisation for stupid, ugly poor people.)

Gary Foster

Speaking as someone who is single, I think people with dependents should pay proportionally more tax than myself

After all you will be making substantially more use of NHS, Education etc than myself why would you bunch of freeloaders expect me to pay for it ?

In fact you should be penalised for contributing to the awful over population problems the world has + all that extra pollution the young uns will be producing

Pointless arguing really as Robski has said, can't please everyone. The current Government / Dictatorship / Socialist party (delete as appropriate) will only seek to maximise income whilst garnering public support. Fairness hasn't anything to do with taxation.

Gary

logiclee

Agree with Gary and co.

To have Children is a decision that should be taken by the people concerned. That decision should not then be subsidised by people who either chose not to have children or who can't have them.

If the child was not planned there may be some argument so the Chinese system applied to this situation looks good.

1st Child = Govt Support
2nd Child = Govt Support withdrawn.
3rd Child = Tax penalties.

I do feel sorry for single mums who have a child and the father has deserted but some of these young females have multiple children, will not name the father and live off the state

The Government has no problems with hand outs to these people but have no problems attacking the disabled.

Rant Over

Lee

[This message has been edited by logiclee (edited 24 January 2001).]

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by robski:
<B>Gary,

I agree, and maybe I will as well, who can say.

Yu are never going to please everyone with tax. Should everyone pay say £10K a year?
Or all pay say 25% of salary, no lower limits etc? Its impossible to make it so tat everyone is happy.

We all want to pay less tax tho.

As someone who is going to be loosing 1 of our 2 incomes, plus have higher expenditure I like the look of the French system. They add all of the families income together, then they look at the number of people dependant on that income, so if you are married thats 2, then .5 for each of the first children, and an extra 1 for the third.
So a family of 5 would have a deendancy ratio of 4 on that income, a single person would be 1, so the single person would pay more tax. I hate to say it, but the French have got something right for once!!

robski[/quote]


The ideal solution to direct taxation is actually comparively simple. i.e. Everyone should pay the same percentage of earnings. That way the £20k pa earner pays say 25% (and pays £5k) the £50k earner pays 25% (and pays £12.5k) the £100k earner pays 25% (and pays £25k). Hence high earners still pay substantially more than low earners, but far fairer than the current system!

Who could possibly complain about that system?

Keep VAT so those who spend more pay more, but don't penalise those who work hard to earn more by charging extortionate tax levels else why try harder in life/business/work etc

AllanB

1) What about a police force and NHS using the additonal resources of the unemployed for backoffice functions.

2) Proper public transport system. The tube won't make money but surely with a failry captive audience it could be better promoted as a media for advertising.

3) All new schools to have drop off zones within the school boundary and these to be on a toll system. Areas around schools to be made imparactial to park next to.

4) Reveune from Gatsos to be used to improve road infrastructure and surplus towards public transport

5) Gatsos outside schools which will not penalise the motorist but help reduce the death rate which is higher in built up areas.

6) NHS to priortise patients based on lifestyle. I'm a smoker and I know its harms me so if it makes me ill thats my choice.

7) Fast food fatty tax. Encourage McDonalds etc to produce a range of tasty low saturated fat foods, reducing the burden on the NHS of heart disease.

6) More accountability for council budgets. It is very typical of schools and goverments to budget burn in March spending and surplusses to ensure they donlt get a budget cut the next year. i know I've seen this happen every march for 10 years now !!

Just my ideas..


AllanB

BladeRnnr

i'm wearing mi fire kit and have a charged hose to protect me..... so dont bother playing with the petrol and matches(sorry you cant afford the petrol ..can you!!)

1/ firstly i dont mind paying tax as long as its out of the wage packet.......(bloody hell)
BUT.....what i mean is id rather pay £15-£20 out of the wage than £35+ out of the petrol tank.....

So there should be a system whereby if a Good/item/thing is taxed,then the maximum rate of tax should be no more than 12%. secondly if an item etc. is taxed at that rate one year you can't bloody well put it up 12% the next. I.e. Up loading the tax all the bloody time.So a maximum CAP on tax Vs cost.

2/Petrol prices to reduce significantly (you put fuel up everything goes up )or failing that the opposition should call for (and get)an election poll within 1 week of any mass demonstration on the grounds of non reresentation of the populus.If the government loses got to have a general election within 6 weeks.(should be law)

this keeps the bloody mps +govrnt.in line and very accountable.....if they continually do not have the populations good will at heart then they are stuffed....plain and simple.


3/ better transport ,and ALL EMERGENCY SERVICES, Not just the police /nhs, you lot out there don't give a fig about the ambulance or armed forces or the fire service
so the Mps have Stealthily reduced their funding.

Example the fire service by tradition risks life and limb deals with nasties from Excrement in floods to nuclear/bio hazards 365 days a year , not to mention pulls the public out of burning buildings ....with out so much as a " we need some more funds" .We do our job silently ,but it is done professionally ....although some spotty 18 yr old kid in a shop gets more money.
Nhs if they want a fair crack of the whip Fine ....We pay to train docs nurses etc.,If they want to work in other countries for more money then they will have to pay back for their training plus a fee for loss of interest of costs etc.

They want to do the job here fine but im not paying for them to bloody well **** off to saudi while i have to wait over 18 months to get my leg seen to.

4/ Political correctness ........load of Crap if you do the crime you do the time, except sentences should carry a mandatory 3 year no parole for a first offence..... second offence 10 years, third 25 ,fourth you stay in.till wooden box time....

Pubs to stay open 24/7
shopping 7 ful days a week.
no more than 2 repeats per tv channel per day
bbc to use advertising to fund itself..everyone else does so why can't they.
legalise Canabis /prostitution, obvoiusly add a bit of small tax on both otherwise the mps would end up out of pocket.......


5/speed cameras only to be used in known acident black spots , better education of drivers (NO More Lane Hogging )Once you've overtaken you move into the nearside lane or else £500 fine No defence...(so we dont need 15 000 traffic police men and a load of gatsos to make money we can have more on the beat)
No children allowed to go by car to school....their getting fat, make the lazy sods walk , I had to (3 miles all weathers)
obviously special conditions for ill/injured/special needs cases.

2 car house holds .....the second car should pay £500 road tax and additional tax of 5% on fuel utilising a different colour coded number plate to enforce.If the car is used for work they can afford it ...... this also cuts down on the school/unneccessary runs.(if item above not used).

so the upshot is No stealth taxes stop taxing the majority and tax the bleading heart liberals.....and use some 'common' sense.

m.




[This message has been edited by BladeRnnr (edited 24 January 2001).]

matt_d

1) Cut red tape & bureacracy, esp for small businesses.
2) Higher standards in public life. Term limits of max 2 elections for any politician, civil servants maximum 10 years tenure. Politicians who break election pledges liable to lawsuits for breach of contract. Base pay for MPs set equivalent to the national average wage, with performance bonus to be decided by their constituents.
3) Sensible law & order policy. Jail re-offenders and people who commit malicious crimes. Don't jail people who commit victimless "crimes" or use force in self-defence. Apply the "buyer beware" principle and punish frivolous ambulance chasing lawsuits. Damages set at a fair level to compensate for loss, not at ludicrously high levels.
4) Punish dangerous driving, not fast driving. Introduce compulsory advanced driver training for drivers of performance cars, and compulsory intermediate training for all others 6 months after passing their test, to be renewed every 3-5 years.
5) Fair tax system - everyone to pay the same proportion of their earnings in tax. So a flat tax on everything (income, corporate profits, VAT, capital gains). Abolish all indirect taxes except VAT.
6) Abolish unemployment benefit. If people fear unemployment they can take out private redundancy insurance. An immediate £100b saving in annual govt expenditure.
7) Continue the current policy on the NHS. Hopefully in a few more years when people are routinely left to die on hospital trolleys, those with broken toes are refused treatment, and there are 6 month waiting lists for heart attack victims, people will finally realise that governments are crap at providing health care. A sensibly regulated private sector with competition, profit incentives, and penalties for crap service can then be brought in.
8) Phase out pensions over, say, 10-20 years. Governments are rubbish at saving money for themselves, let alone others (look at the current level of pensions). Let people save for themselves.
9) Reform schools. It is stupid to spend 5 years teaching teenagers Shakespeare and not tell them a thing about mortgages, the law, money, the world of work, how to communicate effectively, and other things which are essential once you leave school. It should also not take 7 years to give a secondary education. Cut it to 5 years. With the internet, home learning is now an option. So cut the school day to 3 or 4 hours maximum too. Also, have more fun activities at school.
10) Withdraw from the EU, and abolish all trade barriers, tariffs, quotas, export subsidies and so on. Instead of paying French farmers to do nothing, then buying their produce at over-inflated prices, we could buy from the developing world instead, resulting in a £1k annual saving on the average family's food budget. It would also provide employment in poor countries and encourage more foreign invesment there.
11) Further cutbacks in the armed forces. Stop pretending we are a world power, don't get involved in other people's conflicts if it has nothing to do with us. Just have enough force to defend the UK and its protectorates. Stop agreeing with the US on everything.
12) All newspaper articles moaning about corporate fat cats must be accompanied by an article of similar length moaning about overpaid pop stars, footballers, actors and newspaper editors.
13) Most things above would slash government spending dramatically. So pay off the national debt, then slash taxes to 20% or lower if possible. Business would boom, foreign investment would pour in, causing more jobs and higher pay for the general public. The pound would soar making foreign performance cars & holidays abroad dirt cheap. There would be so much money floating around that people would pump plenty of it into arts, culture, charity, inner city regeneration etc - maybe some nutters would even start building dedicated B roads in Wales for people to race on. I would finally be able to race my Scoob in peace, and everyone would live happily ever after.

logiclee

High Pound = No manufacturing, no exports, no jobs (except a few in the finance sector)

Gary Foster

Jaysus !

I can't believe some people actually agreed with me In all the (300 ?) odd posts I've made they've all turned out to be a complete load of twaddle.

I move that this thread be framed for prosperity, this may never happen again

You guys feeling alright ?

matt_d

Well the UK has had a high pound for almost 5 years now, and unemployment is at 30 year lows. Ditto the US with the dollar. And Japan's export sector hasn't done too badly over the last 20 years, despite a very strong currency. Europe on the other hand has a weak currency, yet unemployment is twice as high as here. No one wants the pound to triple overnight, but a strong currency is usually a sign of economic strength not weakness.

robski

having fun guys? I started this for a laugh, but its quite interesting how views can vary so much amongst a group of people who I would have suspected would have similar views

BladeRnnr
"2 car house holds .....the second car should pay £500 road tax and additional tax of 5% on fuel utilising a different colour coded number plate to enforce.If the car is used for work they can afford it ...... this also cuts down on the school/unneccessary runs.(if item above not used)."
Couldnt disagree more. Maybe ownership of 1 car yes, but for some its not practical to have 1 car, or take my example where we have 2 cars, we do use 1 for work (civic 1.5 vtec), the other (the scoob) is my fun car.
If it was going to cost me and extra £500 for the tax on the scoob, I would sell the civic and use the less efficient and more polluting scoob.

GaryC
"The ideal solution to direct taxation is actually comparively simple. i.e. Everyone should pay the same percentage of earnings. That way the £20k pa earner pays say 25% (and pays £5k) the £50k earner pays 25% (and pays £12.5k) the £100k earner pays 25% (and pays £25k). Hence high earners still pay substantially more than low earners, but far fairer than the current system!

Who could possibly complain about that system?"
Well I dont agree with it. I do think there is some duty in the 21st century for the better off to help the rest of the country. It has to be a balance obviously (and I think most successful people are overtaxed).
The main problem with your idea is that the low paid will have to be paid more, or they will decide not to work. Thats unless you can reduce the tax rate by all people paying at the same rate.

any more views peeps?

robski

p.s. maybe I will print it off and send it to tony and william for a laugh!!

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by robski:
<B>
Well I dont agree with it. I do think there is some duty in the 21st century for the better off to help the rest of the country. It has to be a balance obviously (and I think most successful people are overtaxed).
The main problem with your idea is that the low paid will have to be paid more, or they will decide not to work. Thats unless you can reduce the tax rate by all people paying at the same rate.


[/quote]

You must be joking? I certainly don't think those that have work hard and built successful businesses/careers have a 'duty' to look after those who haven't.

"Its all right, you can **** around at school then sit on the dole because the guy busting his ***** working 14 hours a day will support you??"

<B>The low paid will have to be paid more? </B>

Close ...the low paid will have to <B>EARN</B> more!

The point you are missing is that by charging a unilateral direct tax rate, the higher earners still pay more, but in direct corelation to how much more they earn - how can you argue that is unfair?

Having worked hard in 6 years of post-scholastic education, and 7 years of my employment, I begrudge losing 65% of my earnings to the state that in return does very little for me, because I am being forced to support those who 'haven't'.

Easy target, that is all it is! Is there any wonder so many of our prominent business leaders and entrepeneurs move O/S??

robski

GaryC,

how are you managing to pay 65% of your earnings as tax? Or are you estimating the VAT etc elements as well?

As someone who has spent 10 years at work (accountancy and IT), still studying, I know what you mean.

But, you have to consider all the hiddens with this. If everyone does have a decent standard of living they are surely less likely to move to a life of crime.

1 of the problems with taking everything as direct taxation is that those with the money to, and those that can be bothered to, can easily get out of paying it. Registered in foreign countries etc. Show me one person who can get out of paying VAT and fuel duty at their local garage!

robski

Gary Foster

GaryC said

&gt;The low paid will have to be paid more?
&gt;
&gt;Close ...the low paid will have to EARN &gt;more!

When I suggested equal %rate of tax, my assumption was (as Robski said) the low earners wages would go up, not that they'd suddenly be out of pocket.

This duty to support the rest of society thing gets on my wick !

There are things that the population as a whole must pay for (on a an equal basis) and which I agree with, Schools, police, etc basically 'services'. You can argue what this list should include.

Paying for these things (which make up our society) is an entirely different matter from taking my hard earn't wadge from my pocket and placing it in (say) a married couple with two kids pocket ! (through different taxation / benefits).

Thats tantamount to discrimination against Single people who have no kids !

Gary

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by robski:
<B>
how are you managing to pay 65% of your earnings as tax? Or are you estimating the VAT etc elements as well?

[/quote]

Yes looking at all taxes Sch D, VAT, Fuel, CGT, Council Tax....etc I lost 65% of my gross wage to central and local govt last year SIXTY-FIVE PERCENT! mmmmm fair systems then

If any business tried to introduce price discrimination it would be in court faster that Peter Mandelson's back-tracks, but call it a governmental tax, and you can discriminate as much as you want one rule.....etc

New Labia - same c****!

robski

GaryC,

Hey I agree, deffo not labour myself, Ive always voted tory, they have just lost it unfortunately. We need another maggie!

the tricky bit with taxation is getting the balance.

there are choices, how much funding does the police force get, the army, other emergency services?
the more youve got (posessions), the more youve got to loose, so are you unhappy to pay more then?

what about healthcare, should we pay to a NHS? Ive got private healthcare, so maybe I could opt out? Oh, but what about in 40 years time when I cant afford it, can I rejoin the NHS as a dependant even tho the chances are I wont be paying any tax?

I dont use most of the local services either, no public transport, sports centres, the subsidised theatre etc etc, can I opt out? Im hopefully moving, the area I want to move to is only a few miles away, the house much bigger and more expensive, yet the council tax will be £100 less per year. Why? because its a tory seat, and not labour, so there are much less PC schemes like bus lanes etc being paid for.

I can work, so why should part of my income be taken to support those who cant work? I wouldnt mind stopping that, bloody teenage mothers getting a council house and loads of money. Hang about tho, maybe if we do correct some of the things that cause things like this we will reduce its vicious circle?

the list could go on and on and on.

What am I trying to say? everyone has their own reasons for wanting lower taxes on this or that, but its got to be shared around or reduced. Im quite happy to see £10 extra tax per packet of ****, guess what I dont smoke.

Maybe you would like to see a return to victorian values then, with a few with most of the wealth, the rest in virtual poverty. At least in todays environment you can work to get yourself out of it.

Do you ever consider how different things may have been for you if circumstances had been different? I feel certain that if I had of come from a poor family who couldnt find decent work, and I grew up in areas of high crime with no prospects that I may have turned out a little different!

Also, I dont know what your income is, but say its £35K (which is probably low for a lot of people on here). The 35% left over after tax is £12,250 which you get to do whatever you want with, thats as much or more than a lot of people earn before tax!

Bring back window tax thats what I say.

robski