Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

It's a shame that Alcazar insists on spouting the same rubbish over and over.

I would much rather he didn't, but seeing as he does, it is only correct for me to put the record straight everytime for commercial reasons.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

OK BOB, it's "put up or shut up" time.

If you're so sure that what I say is rubbish, and that DoT are either lying or stupid, then I DARE YOU to approach DoT and ask for YOUR kits to be looked at with a view as to their legality.

For commercial reasons, of course..........'cos if YOU are right, and I'm wrong, I'll apologise and you'll sell FAR more kits with the good publicity.

So..........there you have it. Either put up, or SHUT UP BOB. PROVE me wrong if you can

Alcazar

SC008Y_MAD

iTrader: (5)

I am sure we would ALL like to know the out come of this.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Alcazar: You seem to have an infinite amount of time to spend talking about HIDs.

Feel free to point out anything that I have said that is incorrect.

I'm not going to entertain you by repeating things over and over. If you memory is lacking, use the search facility.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Lost your bottle BOB? I seem to remember quite well threats to sue me for slander? (I think you meant libel). You reckoned to have plenty of bottle then

You know my point: I CHALLENGE you

Either GET YOUR STUFF TESTED BY DoT, OR SHUT UP! It's illegal, according to DoT, and all your posturing will NOT alter that fact: live with it.

The ONLY way you can now win this argument is to GET YOUR STUFF TESTED, commercially, it makes sense

HTH, Alcazar

CEL

iTrader: (1)

RECEIVED INFRACTION

For what?

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

At a guess persistant trolling of every HID thread with the same old rubbish

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Can it daz. Since when has telling the truth been "trolling"?

Alcazar

mrtheedge2u2

"can it"..... have not heard that term ini ages

2008scooby

E approved headlights are all coded for there application. It is illegal to use them for other than there intended use.

DC Low beam headlamp, gas discharge (HID Xenon)
DR High beam headlamp or driving lamp, gas discharge (HID Xenon)
DCR Low/high beam headlamp, gas discharge (HID Xenon)

HC Low beam headlamp, halogen
HR High beam headlamp or driving lamp, halogen
HCR Low/high beam headlamp, halogen

C Low beam headlamp, tungsten filament
R High beam headlamp or driving lamp, tungsten filament
CR Low/high beam headlamp, tungsten filament

B Fog lamp

A Front position lamp

RL Daytime Running Lamp

If you wish to change the type of bulb you are going to use or what application you wish to use your light for then you must have the appropriate markings or it is illegal to use on the road.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

That's my understanding too, but as I've been banned from commenting negatively on BOB'5, his company, his products or his beliefs on the law, by the webmaster himself , I'll say no more

Alcazar

2008scooby

That is very strange I don't understand why they would do that to you alcazar. The regulation on this are very clear. I have never even seen a supplier dispute this. Most suppliers will sell these conversion bulbs as “for off road use only”. Or some to get out of admitting there illegal to you will come up with something like “our kits are made of e approved parts”. But I have never seen one come out and say yes out kits are completely legal to covert any halogen headlight to gas discharge as them saying this would actually be illegal in it self. I would be very interested to see a link to any one who is selling them as legal.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Have a look on this VERY thread, post number 27, but be warned.............I've had THREE infractions for "trolling" over this

Webby is now using the excuse of trolling to infract/allow infractions, in fact he's even gone as far as changing the wikipedia definition of internet trolling to support his little crusade supporting advertisers

Want to bet I get another for this?

Alcazar

2008scooby

I think they have worded that post quite careful and are probably ok to say what they said. Though I think they intended to refer to DFT and not DOT as if its the article I am thinking of this is what the auto express article was taken from. I guess it is a valid comment in as the Auto Express article only appeared to be based on one article the DFT published and a MOT test.

What BOB'5 has said is that there kits do not have glare issues. This would be debatable as any brighter light would have more glare but I am taking it as it was intended that there kits will pass a MOT aim test. They may do but I cant really comment any further on that without testing them my self.

It is also true that the DFT statement are not legal requirements. But the UK Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations and European ECE regulations on the other hand most defiantly are. The DFT statement is the only document from any government department that at all allows the diy retrofitting of gas discharge light. I am quite surprised that any one wishing to sell light upgrades would be against the added freedom the DFT feel we should have.

PaulC72

At the risk of saying something already said and if the whole issue is over the legalities of any equipment why do you not get it tested and publish the results after your court case of course where you can claim rightfully {if proved} that they are illegal as of course all costs would be granted back to you, thus solving the whole problem.

If it has been said already ignore me

2008scooby

It is a good idea PaulC72 and I like your thinking, however it works the other way round. There is already legislation controlling vehicles lighting and in so if some one disputed this it would be there job to take there dispute to court. It would be very hard as you would have to some how prove that the law it self was unlawful. Its gets further complicated as we are talking European legislation that all EU members are required to follow. You would have to take it to the European high court or have the UK introduce some sort of legislation to get round the EU. All very complicated and very unlikely, even car manufactures struggle to effect such fundamental changes. As it stands a retofit gas discharge bulb is illegal to fit to a headlight not approved for it if use on the public highway and the police can quite lawfully issue fixed penalties or court summons with a £2500 fine and 6 months band open to the courts (I may be off on the penalties the courts can issue these days)

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

The law on HIDs is vague at best. I have had emails to and from the DfT and frankly they don't seem to know what they are talking about.

It is a grey area and the DfT when pressed are unable to give a definitive answer. At best they point to the 1989 Lighting Regs, which don't list HIDs. Therefore DfT imply they may not be legal, but cannot clarify this point when asked directly. When asked they responded "The Department for Transport is unable to interpret the regulations".

Furthermore, the reason the Regs have not been clarified is because nobody has seen fit (through common sense) to try and enforce them.

Retrofit HID kits have been about for years now and I would think that if it was an issue we would know about it by now.

The fact of the matter is that this is all academic anyhow as these regs appear not to be enforced and nobody has been prosecuted (afailk). Therefore we don't see it as an issue we need to address, but mark our kits as "for off road use" anyhow - the same as high wattage halogens.

I can't speak for all HID kits on the market but I've had HIDs on my car for almost 2 years and have never had any issues of dazzling anyone or passing MOTs (the same feedback from our customers also).

Having tried various uprated halogen bulbs I can conclusively say that HIDs are the best lighting upgrade available within any given headlamp unit on the Subaru Impreza (again, backed up by customer feedback).

https://www.scoobynet.com/group-buys...mance-ltd.html

Cheers,

Bob

spireite

Please remember that it is your responsibility to ensure that the items purchased are suitable for your vehicle make/model and that the use of said items complies with all applicable laws in your Country. In the UK, fitting an aftermarket HID kit is not technically road legal as you are replacing a halogen bulb with an HID bulb, because of this the HID bulb cannot be E marked, which is a requirement for it to be road legal.

Just been reading this BOB'5 do your kits come with the Emark

spireite

Department for Transport - Aftermarket HID (Xenon) headlamps

This is also interesting to read

2008scooby

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 you refer to BOB is legislation that lists the requirements of required and optional lighting for road vehicles from 1st November 1989 on. This is a relatively old bit of legislation and is now effectively replaced by the European E marking system. However this said it is the last bit of UK specify legislation on vehicle lighting and is still applicable to date. In such any car complying to The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 will still be road legal within the UK even if it contradicts European legislation. Though I am confused as to why you would bring this up as The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 does not allow gas discharge light period. You can get a copy of The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 from the Office Of Public Sector Information if you wish to read through it your self.

Gas discharged light are permitted under European legislation. This is where my first post came in as in the E mark system the hole headlight unit as a hole including the bulbs is approved as one. This is why you have to have the cosponsoring headlamp code as to bulb used. Hence any gas discharge bulb can only be used in DC, DR or DCR marked headlights. This is also why any retrofit gas discharge bulb to convert a headlight original intended for halogen bulb simply cannot be road legal. If you would like to know more contact the United Nations Economic Commission For Europe.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against a well done light conversion and would not be surprised if police would ignore or simply not notice a well done conversion. But the fact remains that they are illegal and if the police do notice for whatever reason you can get in a lot of trouble. It is worth noting that police have pulled people for these before and even been known to pull over vehicle with legal gas discharge lights and issued them with penalties. Yes I did say legal lights. Over zealous policing perhaps but this is just a example to show that people do get pulled on lighting issues.

spireite

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.

If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:

Transport Technology and Standards 6
Department for Transport
Zone 2/04
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078
Fax: 020 7944 2196
Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk
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2008scooby

What you say is very true and at this point of time it is impossible to have a gas discharge bulb approved for a retrofit application though it may hold some sort of making for another application. The thing is any bulb sold as “for off road use only” is perfectly legal to sell as such. This is as you are not selling them for anything illegal. Its only illegal to sell them if you say that there road legal to convert a halogen headlamp to gas discharge. Its all down to what they are going to be used for.

rob2006

iTrader: (1)

I have a JDM MY03 Sti, it has HID's as standard but quite honestly i think they are crap.

Is there anythiing i can do to improve them..? the spread of light doesnt seem to reach out far enough.

DazW

iTrader: (1)

Can you post links? as i couldn't find anything in an hour of surfing on google regarding penalties & HID's?

vindaloo

The definitive answer is that our vehicle construction and modification legislation is a crock. As is any enforcement. Too much emphasis on tax collection rather than providing a well informed public service. Why isn't the aftermarket modification of vehicles or specific aspects of vehicles defined?

As it stands, if someone gets a defect notice, they have to stand alone in defending their position. They'll tend to fold rather than take it to court.

The only way this legislation will be clarified is after a number of court cases have been heard and a case history/precedent is established. This of course, won't be cheap.

J.

2008scooby

DazW you can get more information if you apply in writing to your local Police force or contact the Office Of Public Sector Information. But I will try and provide a little more information for you. Normally the offence would be dealt with a by a Fixed Penalty Notice as defined by the Road Traffic Act on your first offence. This would be just a simple £30 fine that if you paid promptly would just be left at that. Thought you could also be prosecuted Using Vehicle In Dangerous Condition etc. Or if the police office that pulls you is on the ball and really out to get you they can prosecute for the Offence Of Keeping Vehicle Which Does Not Meet Insurance Requirements, that is unless you have declared to company that inshore you that your vehicle has had said modification and that they understand that they have render it none road legal and will still cover the vehicle for 3rd party for use on the road.

I agree with you totally vindaloo. It is ridiculous how complicated after market tuning is. I do though feel suppliers should be made responsible for what they sell and anything that is obviously marketed for a car should be clearly marked in the item and adverts for the item as illegal for road use.

DazW

iTrader: (1)

That didn't answer my question?

Again..

& Examples please, as i can find numerous examples of 'defective vehicle notices' regarding tint's, exhaust even tyre pressure's ...but not a single one about HID's???

2008scooby

Sorry I thought you were talking about general information regarding penalties. I have never looked for them online but have done a quick search and found a few for you. I would not read to much in to them though as forum talk is notoriously misleading. This is why I recommend contacting the police your self or at least getting a copy of the original legislation.

Jcks83 on post 15 is talking about a verbal warning they got after fitting a retrofit xenon system.
Xenon HID Lights - The FIAT Forum

This one is not strictly HID but rather there is reference to a boy racer getting a fixed penalty for having lights of a blue colour.
Policetargetyouths during sting - WalesOnline

This one refers to £30 fine for having HID headlights.
Bad Police Attitude (written by a policeman)

This one is a bit odd as it refers to a £40 fine. May just be a typo?
MR2 Owners Club Forums General MR2 discussion HID are they worth it

This is a police forum referring to vdrs, fixed penalty and vehicle lighting in general.
Vehicle lights - 5ive-o

DazW

iTrader: (1)

That's better!

although the first link suggests that 'Jcks83' was driving with poorly aligned lights (which tbh to you could get pulled for with halogens)

2nd post doesn't really help as i'm not sure what 'blue headlights' he was running? 10000K?

The Octavia running factory HID's is a bit confusing? ...they'd be fully legal? & unless they were poorly aligned i'm not sure why he would have taken the ticket?

But what is interesting though is the link to Truth About Retrofit HID / Xenon Bulb Kits ...interesting reading & i think i might carry a couple of spare H4's in my glovey from now on

CEL

iTrader: (1)

There is something wrong here. As far as I can ascertain HID upgrades in standard OEM lamps are ILLEGAL. Simple as, no argument!

I would like to know why Alcazar was banned, I suspect this thread has something to do with it!

Alcazar was and still is one of the few knowledgeable people on here, willing to help anyone, YES ANYONE! I recall him offering to help scoobynet members with electrical problems on many occasions, not just in writing, but actually offering his help in person. Banning him is a great loss and a massive mistake in my eyes.

What the bloody hell is this place coming to? I've been a member on here for quite a while. Yes I've had periods where I've not posted for a while, but I have been reading the forums. I noticed that most of the regulars have either been banned or gone elsewhere.... I wonder why!!!!

Is anyone going to give me an infraction for this? probably!!!

Pathetic!