Paul666

If you drove any distance then that would explain it to me. When the shaft goes it's like cutting an artury, you lose your flow and pressure as it take the easiest route, out the turbo. The first things to go are the last in line i.e. big ends, do your mains show any signs as they would have been next?

Paul.

cossie01

Yes big end and mains are both scored on number 3.

But the mains look / feel worse than the big ends.

Paul666

It could be that if you've driven at low revs the crank has flexed more under load. I always found that if you rev it out of gear and it knocks, it's the big end as it's not under load but if you put your foot down hard at low revs when driving and it knocks, it's the mains as it puts more strain on the crack and the mains.
Paul.

cossie01

I am liking your theory the most tbh, as everything seems to fit in pretty neat and tidy, and accounts for everything that has got damaged.

Also it means I "should" get a new turbo under warranty

Paul666

Hope it's helped. What I would say is to check everything as it doesn't take long without oil to cause damage to things that you may not even think of checking until it's rebuilt and you have a strange noise on a fresh engine.

Goodluck with the rebuild.

Paul.

cossie01

I am still a little confused, as there was still atleast 2.5 - 3 litres of oil in the sump when I drained it.

But as for checking things, there is nothing left in the block, and the head is now fully stripped too.

I took a hammer to the oil pump to split it open (as a screw wouldn't come out of it to seperate it propperly) so that will be replaced, as will the sump, oil cooler, and oil filter housing.

So from an oil contamination point of view, aslong as the machine shop check and clean the oil galleries in the block and crank propperly then there shouldn't be an issue.

Paul666

If you've only got 2.5 - 3 litres left so you're probably 2 - 2.5L (assuming 4.5 - 5L sump) down on full. The question is then how much does it take to fill you engine i.e. oil gallery, bearings, oil pump, cylinder-head and the likes, I would think between 1 - 1.5L could be circulating around your engine so you could be down to as little as a litre in your sump Plus some of the 2.5 - 3L you have drained could have drained back from the cylinders after you stopped, giving you less than a litre in there. Add that to the fact that your oil pressure will have dropped due to the open end that used to be a turbo, putting up to 2 - 2.5L out of your engine, of which you've only found 1.5L.
Paul.

cossie01

I went to the machine shop yesterday to findout the damage to the head, and get the block and crank checked over.

The head basicly needs a full strip down, all valves need lapping as there is some pitting to them, and then he recommeneded a light skim (as it has had a skim before) just to make sure there is no fragments sticking out of it, he will then sand / polish out any pitting that is left in it and decoke it and rebuild it all up.

The block he said there is some scoring to it, but said that it should be fine with a hone. He said that he will hone it first, and then check it over carefully, if he is not happy with it then he will rebore it, and not charge for the hone.

As for the crank, again he thinks it will be fine with just a polish, but will check it over propperly and let me know.

So it might not be too bad in the end.

Still would have been better if it never happened though

340BHP-WRX

iTrader: (6)

You rebuilding it then now Russ ?

cossie01

I will be yeh, but dunno how long before she see's the road again.

M444GY

iTrader: (72)

ouch

cossie01

Ok a little update for those that are interested.

First of all, FP have rejected my warranty claim on the turbo (now there's a surprise), apparently I had over sped the turbo and therefore that is why it failed.

Now I did some checking up on that, and apparently a sign of an over spun turbo, is a tell tale puff of smoke on cold start.

That is something my car did from the day the FP Green was first fitted

Anyway, I managed to get hold of a standard evo 9 turbo to get me back on the road, I rebuilt the engine, using new ACL race bearings, new gaskets, new oil pump, new oil filter housing, new oil cooler with push fit fir tree connections.

Basicly anything to do with the oil side of the engine was replaced, except the head and block (which were both cleaned through at the machine shop).

Anyway I got it all back together (which is a miricle considering all I had was a box of bolts to go by and a pile of parts), but last night it was finally all together and ready to fire up.

So I turned the key, and on the 3rd rotation it sprang into life

So I left it running for 10 mins or so, to let it warm up a little, whilst I checked for leaks and topped the water level up as it went around the system.

Left it to cool down whilst I refitted the bumper, modified the brake cooling duct to clear the oil cooler nicely, and basicly made sure it was all ready to go and put some nice gentle (read hard) miles on the engine, to bed the rings in nicely.

I had another good check around for leaks, and it was all good.

So I fired up the laptop so I could datalog it and make sure there was no nasty knock, and switched the avcr off.

Let the car idle for another 10 mins, to warm through again, and a final check for any leaks.

All was good so I set off for a nice initial run in

I finally found a nice clear bit of road and planted it, instantly all 4 wheels lit up, and I was going sideways (ahh how i've missed that)

I changed to 3rd and the bloody clutch started to slip lol

Into 4th and the clutch slipped a little then gripped nicely.

I had a quick look at the avcr to see the peak boost and was shocked to see on actuator pressure only I was peaking at 2.05bar :P

Anyway I used all the rev range, and it seemed the turbo was peaking at 2bar and holding 1.9bar to the redline (more than the FP Green ever held at the top end) and the car felt quick (well after 2 months of walking, a 1.1 fiesta diesel would have felt quick) but it definatly was quick as everytime I planted it in 2nd or 3rd as it came on boost I would break traction (something I don't think a 1.1 diesel would do) lol.

So I am giving it plenty of boost to force the rings to bed in, and lots of rev's aswell as losts of over run.

All was going well, the fuel level was dropping quickly, so it must be going good, afr's are spot on, and I am only getting very very little knock (bare in mind I am using an FP Green map, that was mapped to hold 1.65bar top end which was the max the Green could hold).

Then at 18.1 miles, disaster struck.

I was going uphill at around 50mph in 3rd, when I heard a strange sound from the engine.

I instantly backed off and the noise went.

I then touched the throttle again, and the sound came back (sounded like a turbo spooling up, but with no hose on it, very odd), instantly I thought, not another dead turbo.

However as I took my foot off the throttle again, I realised it was far worse than that, I clocked in the corner of my eye that the Oil Pressure light had come on, on the dash.

I shut the engine off straight away, but as I was going uphill on a dark country lane, I couldn't just park it up, as it wasn't safe.

However I spotted a laybe a couple of hundred yards up the road, so I fired the engine up again (sounded ok, apart from why I touched the throttle the turbo sound came back) and pulled into the layby slowly and cut the engine again.

Jumped out of the car, and smoke was pouring out of the bonnet.

Lifted it up, and there was oil everywhere, checked in the drivers wheel arch and that was full of oil too.

I was thinking, there has to be a hole in the block, for this much oil.

Anyway I had a quick look under the car (using my phone as a torch), and spotted that the connector from the oil outlet to oil cooler inlet, had blown the hose off (push fit fir tree connection, that is meant to seal and never come off again).

So basicly it just pumped itself dry

samcowrx

pants mate, you really are not having much luck!

gpssti4

iTrader: (6)

Gutted for you. What's the damage?

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

your joking right??

havig spoken to you via email I am sure you wouldn't be stupid enough to drive it like that straight away?

Ian

iTrader: (10)

it does sound quite hard driving for a new built engine. hope you get it sorted soon

172sport

iTrader: (6)

Ex cossie owner.........

cossie01

Why's that then ?

It's best to run them in hard, on mineral oil, you need to load them up to bed the rings as much as possible in the first 20 miles.

Ok 2bar was a bit more boost than I was aiming to run it in with, but what the hell, it would be running that boost in a couple of hundred miles time anyway.

If an engine is gonna fail it's gonna fail, as long as it's been warmed up (which I did) then it shouldn't be an issue.

Except for me a push fit oil line came off, and it died.

Wouldn't have mattered if I was pottering around in 4th at 3000rpm, it would still have dumped all the oil and bought the pressure light on

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

don't agree will reply more when I have time later

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

If a race engine and want max power from it and not bothered about how long it lasts within reason then

load.. not full throttle.. lots of overrun.. tend to use drive at 2000rpm and lift off.. then pull over for 30seconds.. then to 3000rpm and lift off and decellerate to 1000rpm... pull over to let it cool, no smoke check etc..
then to 4000rpm, then 5000, then 6000 etc until you get to redline and then drop the mineral oil and put in full synthetic and then map it to the full..

this beds the rings but doesn't remove high / hot spots on bearings and therefore if doing an engine which is intended for road / you want it to last more then a season then 100 very light miles, low rpm, then another hundred incresing the rpm etc.. until 1000miles then change to semi synthetic and then mapped to either full use or lower boost and then another period of miles and then change to full synthetic oil...

the first 20miles are not critical to ring bedding imho.. you can bed them quick or slow..

lots of different theories and ideas on the subject but I wouldn't imho have done a full throttle pull on mineral oil at 2bar

Simon

M535I

tut tut russ that's listening to them evo boy's lol , hope it get's sorted mate asap .

cossie01

As you say, there are lots of different theories and idea's.

That is the route I took, last time (as advised by the guy that built the engine for me), and it worked well (excluding my turbo choice it seems), so I went the same route this time even though I built it.

As for high spots on bearings etc, thats what the machine shop was paid to do, check all clearence / tolerences and make sure it's within spec.

Either way, as I did say above, if I had gone for the gentle run in approach, I would still be in the same position now, as the oil cooler hose would have still come off, and it would have still dumped all the oil and the oil pressure light would still have come on.

I do also agree 2bar was a bit high to run in with, but mineral oils are pretty good these days, and there was no smoke following me about until the oil lines came off.

AFR's were good, and only 3 counts of knock at the top end.

cossie01

Well it is an evo engine kev

M535I

stick a flat 4 in there might be abit more reliable ,isnt the oil system as a whloe under more pressure the harder its driven ?

340BHP-WRX

iTrader: (6)

Sorry to hear about this Russ ! Has any damage been caused that you know of ?

cossie01

lol.


It will only run at a max pressure, even if I ran 5bar of boost (now that sounds like fun) it would still only run the same oil pressure.

cossie01

I won't know until I refit the oil line (gonna try and get some propper hoses made up, can't trust the push fits again), and then put some oil in it, and have a close listen to it.

If there is any rattles (other than lash adjusters), then I will have to strip it down again.

If it's all quiet, even when I rev it, then I will put some miles on it and see how it goes.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

My reply didnt appear.
No point arguing about it what is done is done.
I would refit push fitting change filter and put some oil in and run the engine to see if ok or not.
I hate not knowing.
You can cut filter open to check for bearing material

cossie01

Yeh thats my plan mate, except I won't reuse the push fitting, just incase it comes off again, when I turn the key, if I am lucky the first time, I know I wouldn't get away with it twice

I cut the filter open before, when the engine was full of debris and it was clear then, so I don't expect I will see anything in there, even if there is bearing damage done.

Just wait for the thuds / knocks or rattles.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

not being able to see the fitting, so not sure if this suggestion is possible but jubliee clip it?

Simon