scoobysmiff

iTrader: (2)

Not wishing to start this all again but as it was me and NOT Harvey who originally stated that the Autobahn FMIC might be worth changing, and it was only a might...

It's not tosh, just because you had good results from one - and well done for your excellent result, it does not mean that they will all be the same, that all that use them will get the same result and that they are the best thing since sliced bread and nothing else in the price bracket is worth considering.

You cannot deny that they have been put on cars in the past which have suffered a pressure drop as a direct result, it may not happen to all cars in all situations agreed, but it has happened.
Now this may have been with the old type of FMIC I have no idea, I am only going on what I have researched and read.

I have not tested the pressure drops like for like but I do trust implicitly those that say they have.

I have helped to fit an Autobahn FMIC and compared to my Hybrid it was more of a challenge - My own personal experience says Hybrid was the better option for me on the day with the tools that I was using in my garage.

j16jrf

iTrader: (3)

the mapper who fitted my autronic and set it up told me to bin my autobahn as the intake temps are gettina bit high and he had to adjust a few things to compensate.

so there is obviously an issue with the autobahn. though mine is staying on until i can afford to get a kit off harvey.

Ian tut tut your just such a ginger **** stirrer hahahaha

thanks
Jamie

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Find that hard to believe as my inlet temps were fine with 452bhp @ 1.4bar on a GT30R

I must of had THE one and only good one then!!!

MartynJ

No , nothing wrong with any of mine either Daz...

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Glad it's not just me in the Autobahn corner

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Hi Jamie,

Your boost is a bit late compared to other installations on this exact same turbo. Possibly your tubular headers are the cause. Do you know the make?
How are your air charge temperatures measured and where?

I am off to bed. No more bun fighting please.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

I have an early Autobahn88 on my car and is not showing any issues at 440bhp @ 1.7 bar, had it mapped by Simon several times and not had any issues with charge temps.

However I love to tinker so purchased a Hybrid core from Harvey ,and will be changing to that in the near future to see if there really is a difference.

So to sum the Autobahn 88 is not as bad as some people think it is, and does produce some decent results.

Banny

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Where are you measuring the charge temps Banny and what figures are you seeing ?

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Duncan not something I have dont just going by what Simon said when I queried the charge temps. Will get a charge temp monitor fitted in the tb hose just before I swtich to the hybrid and measure the difference.

Banny

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

What ECU are you running ?

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

It is on a power fc at the moment but will be switching over to a simtek shortly.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

Banny as a very cheap and very easy to install CT gauge I bought 2 water cooler gauges for a job lot £16

harvey

iTrader: (48)

To assess intercooler performance properly you need to measure both the air charge temperatures (and I relate these to degrees C over ambient) and pressure drop. It is also useful to measure the starting temperature from the turbo compressor.
Measuring the temperature differential is relatively easy but it has to be done accurately and equipment to do this is relatively inexpensive. Around £100 and an hour or two of your own time and you are set up.
Measuring the temperature from the turbo compressor is a bit more difficult because you will actually find the air leaving the turbo can easily reach 200c and sometimes a lot more and for this I use a fast acting K probe and appropriate guage. The cost of this equipment is around £170 for compressor discharge temperatures only.
Measuring compressor discharge temperatures is both interesting and revealing and temperatures achieved from an overworked turbo were at first difficult to believe, so much so that I had to get a different probe and meter with sufficient scale. I am now using an SPA EGT guage and K-probe to have the necessary scale and accuracy. Turbo temperatures are surprisingly volatile from no load to full boost.

I also have a hand held, infra red temperature measuring gun. With this you simply point the gun where you want to measure temperature. Even though this is a more expensive quality item it has serious limitations because it will give different readings for the same temperature depending on the reflectifity and possibly colour of the surface in question. It is no use for accurately measuring intercooler temperatures but it is useful when investigating under bonnet temperatures and it is very useful when identifying brake issues. eg seized piston or lack of rear braking or differential braking, which side hand brake needs looking at/adjusting etc.

To measure pressure drop is that bit more difficult. Originally I used two identical boost guages. On bar and plate intercoolers, including my APS, I found the differential pressure was sufficient to be measured but when Hybrid brought out the tube and fin intercooler the pressure differential was quite small, so trying to measure it accurately on guages with a scale to 1.5 bar was just meaningless. Therefore I bought a Dwyer Magnahelix guage but unfortunely I got the scale wrong first time around as I found the range of pressure differentials from various intercoolers, top mounts and front mounts, was far greater than I had anticipated and I had to buy a second guage.
With delivery and customs these guages are over £100 each.
With this equipment it is also possible to look at pressure drops across air filters and induction systems and to look at pressure differentials external and internally within the engine bay.
All revealing and intersting stuff so much so that I am about to buy a third guage with even greater range and features but it is rather expensive.

The above work has taken time and money and allowed me to increase my knowledge and have an informed opinion about many things including TMICs, FMICs, induction systems, scoops, bonnet vents and much more.
Knowledge is power.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Using water temperature guages is better than nothing but they are usually slow to react. Even if they have the required scale, IF there is a slow reaction time, as with most water temp. monitoring equipment, the information is of limited value.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

1/2s refresh was more than adequate for my needs Harvey, I dont sell these products so dont need to be able to prove to the nth degree.
more a close eye monitoring regime

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Harvey,
Before you spend all that dosh on another SPA gauge, there are far cheaper methods of temp measuring very accurately, with high sampling rates and also include data logging and fancy graphs to demonstrate the best ICs on the market.

Novus Automation MyPcLab for £50

K probes from JMW Ltd off Ebay. £10 EACH
Get the thickest insulated ones for charge temp as the skinny SPA ones pick up heat if trapped between a hose and ali pipework.

200 deg C outlet temp is something like a pressure ratio of 3.4 bar!! That must be a monster of an engine!


nick

Nick

j16jrf

iTrader: (3)

i thought 4k for the full boost wasnt too bad harvey.

I have japspeed headers and uppipe on the car. the seem to do the job but im sure one of ur ported jobbers would make it even better again

i was also wondering how much it would cost for me to bring my car over to you to get set up? just a thought as the guys who did it here and specialists in EVO's and havent really too much experience of subaru's.

Andy F was over there recently doing mapping and had one of their cars down to remap and on idle the car was advanced 16 degrees. so im worried that maybe mine is the same.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Thanks for the information Nick. I may consider one of these guages at a later stage if I want to go into this further. However, by adapting the SPA I have a guage that can be used for permanent installation at a later date so it has been my best cost option. The probe is set in a joiner in a silicon pipe so there is no stray heat measurement.
I asume you have used Boyles Law to calculate the pressure differential. From practical tests, a VF24 can produce temperatures close to 200 c from the compressor outlet when run flat out. Larger turbos, running at higher boost pressure get nowhere near that.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Jamie, when we started trying to find the cause of your problem you were considering changing headers and probably front mount too but it was pointed out you should determine the root cause of the problem. Now you have done that you might want to look at other improvements. 1 bar in 4th gear on your tubo on a 2 litre is typically 3,000 to 3,300 rpm. Headers are a possible cause or there may be mapping improvements.

j16jrf

iTrader: (3)

yeah im getting 1 bar at around 3500 then 1.5 bar at 3900-4000 not tooo bad but yes it could get better with a few improvements.

i would deffo put a set of your headers and up pipe on the car with a hybrid FMIC just costs at the minute are out of reach.

Have spent far too much money on the car as it is lol.

have to calm down for a while and start to save again slightly. Though i would be very interested in you seeing the car and checking the map for me and making sure it is not going to destroy itself haha.

silent running

Re: Harvey's offer - can't say fairer than that...looks like it's time to put up or shut up, to coin a phrase...

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

I would say 1.5bar at 4000rpm is pretty bad on a 20g considering I'm at 1.5bar of boost on my rotated gt35r turbo at those rpms.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

I still pay credance to the school of thought that the wheels in an 05/06-20g are missmatched and that the 18g is a better prospect on a 2.0L

silent running

Well yes there must be a limit to how far you can 'hybridise' a cold and hot side.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Exactly that. A "hybrid" by its very nature that is a missmatch of the driven exhaust side and the compressor side. The 18G performs well with similar spool to the stock TD05 and a reasonable step up in power but the missmatch over what the manufacturer intended is not great. The 20G is a big step up and there are therefore issues that the manufacturer clearly had to avoid as he had to design for whole world market coditions.
It is this missmatch that cause the turbo surge and once you start modifying what the manufacturer intended it is often a compromise.
It is down to your judgement as to how much compromise you will put up with.

Semper

Just back from a rolling road day at Motoscope in Northallerton. My hawkeye WRX, with one of Harvey's TD05/06 20G and supporting mods, made 419.9bhp. Very happy with both the result and the way the car drives.

All credit to my mentor (Jonny Gav), the engine builder (Andy Kindon), the mapper (Mr Bob Rawle, legend) and to Harvey for the help and advice given!

black newage

what torque did it produce?

Semper

It was lower than the bhp. The paperwork is in my car. I've not slept for 30 hours or so and I can't be fooked to go get it. (lazy geordie).

Overall, impressed with the 20g! All the nay sayers, "struggle to get 400bhp without additives"...it's easy peasy in a 2.5!

EDIT - Made 368.2 torques. Bit disappointed with that figure but hey. Been assured by A&S that it's fine.

Car is awesome after Mr Rawle worked his magic. 20g is well capable of 400bhp on a 2.5. Another car made 430ish with a 20g bought at the same time as mine.