CrisPDuk

Don't forget the (comparatively) primitive engine management technology in the GpB cars either.

Just like the later GpA RS500 touring cars, the massive, but very peaky and barely controlled, power of the GpB rally cars made acceleration through corners virtually impossible, driving them was mainly a case of hanging on as best you could through the twisty bits then planting the throttle on the straights, all the while hoping the thing didn't spit you into the trees

CrisPDuk

I bet the overall stage time for the GpA car was quicker though, because the lower gearing would allow better use of the power through the gears

Edcase

I was actually talking about your post

djmisio85

From this explanation, you make it seem as if the group b cars are undriveable around corners, only on straights can you blast it......

Ive never driven a group b car, and assume not many people have. As high tech as modern rally cars are, you cant seriously tell me that a 600+ bhp car from the 80's will lose to a modern rally car on a tarmac race track like silverstone.

The circuit is full of straights, and long swinging corners. The group b cars do after all have 4wd and differentials, put some sticky tyres on and your away.

I know the modern wrc car are very developed cars, and probably have a lil more grip and are more refined.

YouTube - WRC Rally group B
these cars seem to be handling quite well and sticking to the road....

Group B rally cars - Group B vs. WRC

and if you read the above article, as I said, on a track, the group B would win...

CrisPDuk

Ah yes Ed, but my post wasn't there when I made the count, was it

marke8

because senna would have been doing 200 plus on the straights even if the s4 would have touched 140(doubt it) over one lap this would leave the s4 well behind.take in the cornering ability of f1 plus brakes.f1 vs a primitive rally car,no chance.
i would have thought on this site people would understand the power and handling capabilities of a f1 car.
some f1 cars cant even qualify 6th on the grid.

djmisio85

Mate the topic of this thread has moved on if you care to read any of the posts in it......wrc vs group b, maybe we should start a new thread...

CrisPDuk

I never said they were undriveable, but due to the nature of the power they had, and the way it came in -like flicking a switch - balancing them through the corners on the throttle was a black art known only to a select few

As far as getting round Silverstone goes, of course the GpB car is going to kick the WRC car's ***

But, who really gives a **** about comparative perfomances of rally cars on race tracks As far as I know, the World Rally Championship isn't held at race circuits, it's held on tight, twist, bumpy, dirty roads. Take a real tarmac stage like, for instance the Col de Torini, or any of the Tour de Corse stages, and the WRC car will have the GpB car for breakfast

Turbo2

As I said in my post that now seems a lifetime ago!

Of course I am totally biased, but if it's a tarmac specialist you need, then the fastest Group B car on dry asphalt wasn't a 4WD monster at all. It was the little Renault 5 Maxi Turbo with about 350bhp and RWD only. It won the all-asphalt Tour de Corse in 1985 and was runner-up in 1986. If you don't believe me check out these links. French mag Auto-Hebdo and UK's Car & Car Conversions each test drove a car in 1985. One car has just been restored in the UK and will be appearing for some Slowly Sideways demonstrations this year.

DV8 - Renault

DV8 - Latest News

Edcase

LOL...you are either being purposefully obtuse or you're missing my joke

Turbo2

Just a nice little Youtube link to the the Tour de Corse '85 & '86 events mentioned above (sorry about the music). Some top cars featured such as S4, 205 T16, Metro 6R4, 911, R5 Maxi Turbo and even an Alfa GTV V6 and in my opinion the most beautiful rally car ever: Lancia Rallye 037.

The video pays homage to the deaths of Bettega ('85) and Toivenen/Cresto ('86), whose burnt out S4 spaceframe chassis shows what little of his car was left over after his fiery crash.

YouTube - Tour De Corse 1985 and 1986

Sticky Stuff

As this has moved on slightly from the original post...

Has nobody questioned which would be the quickest around Kielder or Dalby?

At least a GpB car would be able to do a lap of a tarmac circuit

CrisPDuk

Some great cars, and drivers, in that clip there Turbo 2

Jean Ragnotti in the awesome 5 Maxi Turbo, and Marku Alen in the gorgeous 037
Both still capable of roundly thrashing the, by then well evolved, 4WD mega machinery on the right surface, even 5 years into the GpB era
Plus a few glimpses of Prodrive's early ventures into rallying, with the Rothmans Porsches

That footage of the remains of Toivenen's car also reminded me of two other things that thankfully died with when GpB was banned; Unbaffled, Underfloor Fuel Tanks, and Aluminium Rollcages

Billgtt

To be fair though (and yep, i'm a huge Renault 5 fan as well), look at how many "top contenders" finished both the 1985 and 1986 TDC.

In 1985 there was one Audi entered, which retired on the first stage. Lancia pulled out after what happened to Attilio Bettega. The only works Peugeot to finish was Bruno Saby, who was basically giving the "new" Evo 2 version a shakedown run out.

Then in 1986, Audi and Ford had no cars entered. The 6R4's of Pond and Wilson retired, Lancia pulled out after the Henri Toivonen accident, and again only 1 Peugeot finished (which won).

I had better point out that i'm not taking anything away from Renault, Jean Ragnotti (driving god), Francois Chatriot, or anyone else for that matter. And in all honesty Ragnotti's stage times from the word go in 1985 were right at the top. However, if all the other top runners had completed the event in the untroubled way that Ragnotti did (one puncture being his only hiccup I think), would things have finished differently?

Billgtt

Oh, and btw Mr Turbo 2, where's this Maxi hiding? I didn't know there were any real ones in this country. I'm going to have to go and see that at a SS event when it breaks cover. Is it going to be wearing a "known" colour scheme?

CrisPDuk

There are plenty of real Maxi Turbos in this country Bill, the last sprint meeting I went to at Curborough (admittedly a while ago) there were over half a dozen, two of which were in the really cool white, black and yellow Elf colour scheme And that was just a local club meeting

Compared to say, a T16, they really are quite common

Billgtt

I mean genuine Renault 5 Maxi Turbo's, not Renault 5 Turbo/Renault 5 Turbo 2's. I know there's a few of those with Maxi kits on them, as i've seen several. But I think the only original Maxi i've seen in this country is the Renault Historic Collection one (painted up in the Ragnotti TDC winning colours), when they've bought it over for the RWS/Goodwood FOS.

Renault 5 Turbo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...MDshow2007.jpg

Renault 5 Turbo 2:

http://www.renault-5.net/renault_5_turbo2.jpg

Renault 5 Tour De Corse:

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/9...1roladolg8.jpg

Renault 5 Maxi Turbo:

http://www.turboclub.com/turbocars/r...5maxiTurbo.JPG

I think word on the street is that there are about 50 Renault 5 Turbo/Turbo 2's in this country. Maxi's, they really are rare.

Turbo2

Bill, check the other dv8 motorsport pages from the links I posted.

DV8 - Home

It's owned by James Hoseason (yes, of the boating holiday family) and is a genuine 1985 ex Chatriot DIAC-sponsored car. I am sure that this is the ONLY genuine Maxi in the UK. Do not confuse this with Neil Brighton's excellent identical replica that has been on SS events for many years. Indeed they only made 20 cars (these were classified as Evolution cars like the other Group B Manufacturers produced), of which it is believed that many were immediately dismantled for spares to keep the others going or for sale of parts to privateers. This probably makes them the rarest of all the Group B cars (much rarer than a T16!) and finding bespoke spare parts today is impossible. In addition to this particular Maxi, there is the Renault museum '85 "Philips" livery TDC winner, as you stated, and I believe Didier Auriol still owns his "33 Export" beer sponsored car. As for any others, I have no idea but would appreciate any information. There are many replicas.

I think you're being a bit harsh on the TdC results. Ragnotti was clearly the quickest in '85 and more-or-less won from flag to flag: he had won 2 of the first 3 stages and was already 16 seconds ahead of Alen's 037 when it was retired due to Bettega's crash in stage 4.

And as for other manufacturers' retirements: as the old adage goes: to finish first, first you've got to finish. Also don't forget that Renault never competed in a full season of WRC and didn't have big multi-car teams since they were spending too much on F1 turbos. They just did the French rounds (Monte Carlo 1st place 1981 & TdC 1st place 1982) and the odd other one (eg. RAC, Portugal, Ivory Coast, Sweden, 1000 Lakes) when funds allowed. They were regular winners at National and European level. They knew they had no chance on the loose surfaces against the 4WD brigade.

Turbo2

You are right: we have just compiled a register of about 60 cars that have been seen in the UK during the last 10 years or so and some of these have since been scrapped or exported, so 50+ is probably a fairly accurate figure, certainly well under 100.

marke8

ive always had a thing about r5 turbo 2's.remember years ago in france seeing a few of them,must have been a meeting.there used to be a red one knocking around leek 10 years ago.saw a elf coloured one in a little garage outside shrewsbury about 3 years ago.didnt have a price on it tho.
i think the v6 clio is also a beauty,never been in one so can only comment on the looks.

marke8

Auto Trader Dealer Pages - Wayford Car Centre

best get saving

Turbo2

That car's been for sale at that dealer for donkeys' years! I guess that's what he means by 6 years dry storage! Not surprising really at that price.

marke8

thought i'd seen it before while trawling the net.the old "women owner" thing stuck in my mind.
once found a site,cant remember the name.think it wased based in geneva.it had ex wrc cars anf f1 cars,all sorts.a r5 turbo 2 ex racer was 100k !!!
also had a wrc intergrale from 1990

marke8

found it 1 second when typed in geneve carclassic.com - Welcome

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

Back on the subject of S4's, I found this video on YouTube without any anoying dodgy 80's soundtracks.....LANCIA DELTA S4 AUDIO ORIGINALE

Billgtt

That'll teach me for not clicking on the link previously. It's good to hear that it's one of the DIAC cars in this country, as I really like that colour scheme. I have seen Neil Brighton's replica in the flesh, and it is indeed very good. It had me fooled to start with. Was the rumor that I heard true, which is that it was built from a Gordini?

As for surviving Maxi's, I did read a couple of weeks ago that one has recently sold in France. I have no more info though. I have also been told by a huge Renault fanatic, and ex T2 owner, "Moggy" that the car displayed by the Renault historic Collection is not the actual TDC winning car, but another one sprayed up identically, and that the original is under wraps in Renault's storage, along with a few more Maxi's.

Maybe I was being a bit harsh on the TDC results, and as I stated my intention was not to take anything away from Renault, as they did do very, very well indeed.

blubs

In my opinion, rallying is about spectacle.

I was lucky enough to follow the 1986 RAC, which was the last year of GpB in the WRC and the cars were awesome to behold in the 'flesh'. You really got sense that they were unwieldy and difficult to control and this made them exciting. The noise too - each car sounded quite different. From the pop bang of the Quattro, the loud bark of the 6R4 and the whine and whoosh of the S4. Each one seemed to have a soul somehow?

I still enjoy rallying but I now follow the Roger Albert Clark Rally, for exactly the same reason.

Noise, car control - the spectacle.

And beer

blubs

Turbo2

Bill, it wasn't even a Gordini: just a regular front engined, front wheel drive R5 GTL! It's astonishing how much work he put into it.

martyrobertsdj

iTrader: (1)

I used to go to the Lombard RAC rally back in the Group B era and, although the cars may not actually be as fast on the stages as the modern WRC cars, the spectacle was awesome!!

Nothing better than trudging round a wet forest at 4am on a morning, just waiting for the pops, bangs and off-beat warble of a Group B Sport Quattro to get close and then for the car to fly past in a blaze of mega-wattage lighting and flying gravel!!

That's not to mention the dashing between stages in your own cars and sneaking in behind the rally cars as they filed down between two stationary rows of traffic on the moors!! lol

That's when the "Rally Of Great Britain" actually ventured outside Wales. Who the **** made that decision eh? *****!

I went to the Humberside Forest Rally last weekend, and the best cars by far were the MKII Escorts and the odd Manta, Chevette, etc. There were a couple of WRC spec cars, and although quite obviously quicker, they were also quite boring to watch.

Billgtt

Amazing! He's done an incredible job on that