imf1

iTrader: (2)

Yes thats a nice description, thanks, but my meaning was more that the light emitted from the headlight would be brighter or more intense but still travel along the same lines and direction, more or less as the halogen bulbs. Therefore the basic pattern shouldn't change, surely.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Ah, I see.

Which neatly brings us back to my original point.

Reflectors for halogen lamps are computer designed, (supposedly........so WHY did Subaru make such a ****-up of the classic lights???), so that the focus of the reflector is exactly where the filament of the bulb is placed.

This is fine for HID so long as your new HID lamp has it's discharge arc at EXACTLY the same spot as a halogen filament. Two problems occur here:

1. The halogen filament lies horizontally across the reflector in most halogen lamps, whereas the HID arc is along the line of the axis of the reflector. This can lead to some scattering of light.

2. SOME HID lamps made for aftermarket kits do not have the arc placed sufficiently accurately. Even a misplacement of 0.5 mm can lead to MASSIVE scattering of light.

It's that scattering which causes light loss, (not TOO much of a problem when you have the equivalent of 300W halogen power to play with ), and dazzle to oncoming drivers.

As for the H4 bulb, if you look at one you'll see that it has TWO filaments, one for dip, one for mainbeam, placed quite close to one another in the same quartz glass envelope.

This has proved IMPOSSIBLE to emulate in HID, so various b@stard methods are used, NONE of which are legal, nor produce ZERO dazzle. ESPECIALLY with the crap designed Scoob classic lights.

That's why I say, go for it if you want to on newage single bulb headlights, but avoid at all costs the crap H4 kits!

Alcazar

harvey

iTrader: (48)

To add to what Alcazar has said regards Classic H4 subaru headlights and bulbs, I resisted buying an after market HID Xenon conversion kit for quite some time. From the coversion kits I had come across, particularly the cheaper ones, while dip beam could be good, sharp and focused that was not my observation for full beam. While giving nice bright light my observation was that it was not well focused.
This does not apply to the HID Xenon headlights I have experience of as original equipment and the explanation above regards the H4 on Classic Subaru headlights seems perfectly reasonable to me. It is not the brightness of light or the amount of light emmitted but rather the focus or precise control of the long range full beam that is important for cross country, long distance driving.
On the basis that if I spent more money I would get a better kit and somewhat against my judgement I was persuaded to order a kit from HIDS4U.
I am now waiting for that kit to be collected by the supplier and you can see why here : index

andypugh2000

I find this a good read regarding the legality issue...

Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Seen this article (well, the video part of it) before. The video bangs on and on about beam scatter and how it would fail an MOT - when you see the car it's fitted to and the kit it's no bloody wonder!

The kit I have fitted to mine didn't have this problem; according to the tester, the beam pattern was fine, but I only have a kit fitted for dipped headlamps. I had even mentioned I was worried about the kit before he carried out the test.

The article also mentions that the lenses are not suitable for HID bulbs where "halogen ones belong," but I'm guessing that doesn't really ring true for the bugeye as it shipped with both HID and non-HID versions, (as far as I know) both using the same lenses. What's the stance on an SVA test when imported bugeyes come in with the HID's fitted? Anybody had to deal with that - would be interesting to know.

By the way, all this research has been done in the USA, and all the "DOT" letters are from there too. Anyone seen anything like this, but with letters from our own department of transport in the UK?

Before anyone starts attacking me ( ) yes I know these aren't technically road legal; I'm just stating that in my view this article is at the more extreme and exaggerated end of views on HID.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

The article is one persons view of HIDs. The joys of the internet mean that anybody can publish an 'article' online.....people normally start with a theory or opinion in mind and then set out to prove it....

Might do one myself

What it boils down to IMHO is:

1. Do the HIDs scatter/blind other drivers? No, if they did they wouldn't pass an MOT test and other drivers would let you know. I've never been flashed in the year++ that I have had them on my daily driver (classic), nor had a problem with passing any MOTs (or heard of anyone elses failing).

2. Do HIDs provide better visibility and offer greater performance than Halogens? Yes.

Cheers,

Bob

imf1

iTrader: (2)

Have to agree, the part of the article telling us that you think you can see farther is complete bollox in my opinion, at least on my car. What a statement to make, I rarely use full beam now but according to the article I really see less than before, maybe I drive very slowly now its brighter in front of me

Best mod I've done and never ever been flashed, apart from when I'm a little, lets say, quick

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Bob: once again, you forgot to add:

3. Are HID after market kits LEGAL to use in the UK? NO!

4. Will my company indemnify anyone whose car either fails an MoT or is involved in an accident and is prosecuted as a result of using an illegal light source?

Well, Bob, Will it?

Alcazar

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Getting really tired of this...here we go again with scaremongering with nothing to back it up

Nobody that has purchased any of our kits has had any problems with the Police or with the lights passing a MOT beam test.

Speaking of HID kits generally, there are no known cases of anyone being prosecuted after an accident as a result of the lights, and its a fair assumption that there has been accidents where HIDs were fitted, yet still no cases that I know of?

Running by the strict letter of the law is one thing and common sense reality is another. As current legislation stands virtually every modified car falls foul of the law just by fitting a non-standard exhaust system. Is everything on your car fully road legal? Brake pads? I know mine aren't, but also know that common sense prevails if ever it came to proving that my non reg brake pads weren't the cause of an accident.

Will your HID supplier for driving lights indemnify you if you forget to turn them off on a country lane and blind someone, causing an accident? Of course not. Will Halfords indemnify you for using high wattage dipped beam bulbs? No they won't.

I make no claims about the kits being 100% legal when fitted to cars with no self levelling etc, but you already know that.

What I can say from the reality is that nobody that I know has had any of the issues that you go on about.

I don't have as much time as you to go on and on about the same subject just because you have spent £800 odd on a lighting setup and feel you need to justify it. You have no first hand experience of the kits, whereas I do and deal with them and customers day in and day out so have a much wider information pool of the real world.

I might just publish an article, just so I don't have to repeat myself everytime you jump onto any HID related thread

Cheers,

Bob

John 37

The car should have leveling headlamps or self leveling suspension. Either is OK.
Have a look at the bottom of this page.
Tyresmoke.Net: Xenon Headlights
Bear in mind this was posted in 2004 so may be out of date.
I also think the part about insurance is a little overstated.

John

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Why the rolleyes, Bob? Just answer the questions as posted, (for the second time).

Yet

As I said, "YET".

A slightly flawed argument, in that the brake pads you use will almost certainly be e-marked or allowed to be used and sold in Europe.

Irrelevant. BOTH are e-marked and ROAD LEGAL!

I do know that, but what IS noticeably absent from your responses to others apart from me is that they aren't legal for use except for off-road in the UK, and that your company will take no blame for any accidents so-caused, or proceedings arising from their use on public roads.

So that makes it OK then? Or makes my point wrong? Nope.

But you seem to have PLENTY of time to go on an on justifying selling what is, whichever way you put it, a product illegal to use, ON THE PUBLIC ROADS, in the UK under current legislation.

Here's part of a copied e-mail from the DoT:So not only those FITTING and using the kits are commiting an offence, Bob, so are the company SELLING the kits

You surely aren't making out that I'm JEALOUS of your kits, Bob? If that were the case, surely, I could just go out and buy one?

Irrelevant. I NEED no experience to know that they are ILLEGAL for use on public roads in the UK.

So.........put the FULL information into your selling spiel, Bob, then I'll shut up, I promise

Go ahead, and IF you put the full info into it, I MIGHT just quote you

Kind regards, Alcazar

PS: if you've read any of my recent posts, you'll know that my REAL bone of contention is with the H4 kits only. None of the others, just H4.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Oh dear. "Yet"....nice way of saying that you don't have anything to back up what you say.....Real world

My information is very clear and always has been.

Just your black and white view/attitude on things is rather amusing....just to highlight the fact - "A slightly flawed argument, in that the brake pads you use will almost certainly be e-marked or allowed to be used and sold in Europe". Really? Are yours Reg 90 approved? Most performance pads are not, including mine.

And there you go on about beam patterns (again)....if the beam pattern was bad, they would not pass an MOT....SIMPLE!

Why don't you jump on every exhaust thread and tell everyone thinking of changing to an aftermarket exhaust that its illegal? Or brake pads for that matter?

The simple fact of the matter is that the kits work and are a good upgrade. H4 kits by the absolute letter of the law shouldn't be used on the road (the same as high wattage bulbs) but they don't dazzle drivers, they pass the MOT and have no problems with the Police. That's speaking from experience, not 'ifs', 'yets' and 'buts'

By the strict letter of the law the car tuning industry could be brought to its knees just with the exhaust legislation. Thankfully people exercise a bit of common sense

sarnyboy

why is alcazar so bothered about bob'5 selling these kits? just let him get on with it.. geez

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I'm not bothered Sarnyboy. People ask for advice on here. I tell it like it is. I have no axe to grind, I am NOT selling stuff, not out to make a profit.

Make your own mind up which of us is right, then do your own thing. That's a free world.

As for Bob5's post, you'll note that his counters to my arguments aren't.

And he once again fails to answer the most pertinent question.

Alcazar

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Mine passed the MOT on Saturday dip & main.... yeeha !

Another vote for Bob... I thank you, still waiting to be flashed at !

DunxC

l1verp00l

another vote for bob5 kits. Fitted to MY00 and passed mot no probs.

Alcazar you are not coming accross too good. bob5 looks to me like he has answered the question and has been forthcoming with his answers. Maybe u need to read it all again.

andypugh2000

I flash at least 5 drivers every day with these menacing things throwing up glare, honda accord, ford galaxy, corsa, bmw 3 series, chrysler voyager to name a few.

Whether or not the mot tester passes them is irrelevant, I can get a decat through an mot as I know them.

These things are an absolute nuisance and every vehicle retrofitted should be stopped and impounded for safety reasons.

darms

iTrader: (5)

For those that have never been flashed....have you ever had anyone flash their rear fogs on and off when driving?

Try driving in another car with some HIDS in your rear view mirror! You'll soon get the message.

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

The only time I have problem with anybody following me, HID's or no HID's is because either:
1) Their headlights are badly aligned
2) They're an idiot and driving with full beam on, or they're an idiot and driving with fogs on a clear night, or
3) One of their headlights has gone and the other bulb is seemingly running brighter.

I find that it's BMW's and Range Rovers that are far worse than any other vehicle on the road as their bulbs seem to be more blue, yet higher intensity - I don't have problems with cars running white bulbs.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

But he actually hasn't. Alls he's done is have a pop at my integrity.

WHEN he finally answers the questions as to WHY he doesn't make a big thing about the illegality of his product, and HOW and WHY he doesn't/won't offer indemnity, advice NOT to use on public roads etc, I'll shut up.

His statements about MoT tests are a smokescreen. Most testers just look to see if there is a cutoff, NOT at the amount of scatter. Some, as we all know, just check that the lights are working. I've SEEN cars with an MoT with one light on the floor and the other in the air. What does THAT tell you about MoT?

As I've already said, I have NO axe to grind, I just tell it as IT IS!.

Alcazar

Having read other posts on here, and on other threads, this will be my last post on this topic.

You can't convince those who KNOW

l1verp00l

the way that I read it was it falls in the same cat as high wattage bulbs.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

No mate. Some higher wattage bulbs, notably those that say they are 30%, 50%, 60% or 80% uprated, ARE e-marked and ARE legal to use on public roads in the UK and the rest of Europe.

Those higher wattage bulbs sold WITHOUT the e-mark must be sold in packs marked "For off-road use only".

NO aftermarket HID kits are e-marked and afaik, are not marked "foruo", either. If you read my earlier post, you'd find part of an e-mail copied from The DoT stating that it is illegal to sell, fit or use them in the UK.

Alcazar

krisclarkuk

iTrader: (1)

stop screwing around and settle it like men....

FIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTT

Google Fight : Make this fight with googleFight alcazar VS BOB\'5

John 37

I've never seen any high watage bulbs that are E marked.
All those I've seen quoting X% more light are standard wattage.
It could well be that they should be sold marked FORUO but I've many that aren't.

John

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Alcazar: I have been quite clear.

The DOT refers to the Road Traffic Act 1988 which covers everything from Prodrive Exhausts (yes really, although current ppp may be ok), brake pads, etc etc. Did Prodrive tell you it wasn't for road use? Or do Blitz state that their backboxes are not for road use? Like I have said previously, yes the legislation is there to enforce, but fortunately people also apply common sense. Otherwise the whole car tuning industry would be brought to its knees and the majority of car enthusiasts would face fines and have to remove things such as exhausts from their cars.

So whilst you may go on about the legality, please apply some common sense that the same applies to exhausts, brakes etc.

We will consider redesigning the packaging to add 'for off road use only' the same as high wattage bulbs, brake pads and exhausts.

Seriously, if the kits were causing problems I would know about it. MOTs are not a smoke screen as you have already read on here cheap halogens have failed, yet none of our HID kits have.

I have had mine on my daily driver for 17 months now, without a single problem. Always passed the MOT. Have been behind numerous Police cars (which around here are super fussy) and never had a problem. Yes it can be annoying when some people fit super blue lights as ones eyes are naturally more drawn to them. I recommend fitting 4300k to anyone that asks and you wouldn't even notice someone passing by with them on. OE BMW type projectors are far more annoying.

Cheers,

Bob

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Meanwhile, over on the OTHER thread, I think you just sold another set

Alcazar

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Bulbs that are sold + 50% like Phillips and Osram or Genral Electric +60% and the latest generation Philips Extreme (claimed to add 80%) and Osram Night Breakers or whatever, +90% are ALL 60/55W and need to be such to be E marked and legal within Europe.
The plus 50, 60 or 90% is a bit of an advertising play or gimmick and I expect Alcazar has far more in depth lighting knowlege to explain this than me.
Incidentally, on all of the above, for me, the General Electric + 60% were by far the best.

"Rally" bulbs or "off road bulbs" are typically 80W100 or 130W90. These are not e-marked and are not road legal and certainly need uprated wiring and a relay to operate satisfactorily on a Classic Subaru. These bulbs can put out a lot of light (and heat) but on many of the sets I have seen, there is a lack of definition or focus which surprisingly puts them behind the bulbs mentioned above in terms of long range full beam vision.

I do not doubt there are some after market HIDs with extremely good, well defined dip beams but in my experience, I am yet to come across a full beam HIDs system that betters my H4 GE + 60%. Full beam is what is important for people who do not spend their life in towns or conurbations.

The test for me is pretty simple and anyone interested can do their own test(s) I have two particular sections of road where, from fixed points, I can measure the range of vision provided on full beam and it is also used with the dip beam. I am yet to find a set of aftermarket HIDs that I would have in preference to my GE Plus 60% and two of my three cars have PIAA 120 or 130W spots and driving lamps respectively and that makes cross country driving very safe.
I have no particular concerns regards the legallity of aftermarket HIDs at present as there seem to be no spot checks and blinding people or being flashed just should not happen but from a practical point of view, I am sticking with H4 + 60% for now.

If anyone would like a set of HIDs tested in the field as it were, I am your man and if they are as good as claimed, I would obviously want to retain them on whichever car they were fitted to.
At present, one car has 130W90 and two have GE + 60%.

Underworld

They definitely increase view and are legal, depending on the bulb temperature u get.... too high temp and it becomes purple.... they pass MOT and never got stopped... have manual levelling, so when i wanna b naughty, just increase the level lollll.. no one flashes as long as my level is low, or medium

20withascooby

i am interested in a 8000k set bob but dont no weather to go for h1 or h4 or even what the diff is got a 94 classic ??

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

You would need a H4 Bi bulb kit that will do both dipped and main beam.

I recommend going no higher than 6000k, but 8000k are in stock also

Order here: ScoobyNet Group Buy Specials