Area 52 Autosport

Oh dear, this really is so unfortunate, While I genuinely feel for Mark's predicament, I now feel its unfair to allow the "half information" which he is allowing onto the BBS, to lead some of you into some of the conclusions you are drawing (based on the scant info supplied), driven I feel by the wish for it to be deemed not of Mark's ultimate responsibility?


Mark's car is in with us for a circa 500BHP conversion, something which we're (as most of you will already know) well versed with and more than capable of supplying.

We removed Mark's AVCR which he had fitted himself, we removed the vehicle battery while this took place, and everything went as it should; flawlessly.

The new GEMS ECU was initially installed on one of our shop cars which has a VERY similar configuration currently, as it allowed us to "hit the ground running" so the car would start with a decent base map. It ran exactly as we would expect in our hands, flawlessly. While we set up and mapped the start-up and base road map, this element was done by myself and Jase.

When the car was deemed mechanically ready, we swapped across the ECU, installed correctly into its own case, with no wires pulled out anywhere or shorted onto the case (as an asides, I'm happy for ANYONE to come and show me how to remove an ECU wire/connector from it's socket on purpose, never mind accidentally)!

The car started on the first turn of the key, and ran up to temperature as we would expect. We monitored bleeding of the coolant system, AFR and the normal host of issues we need to watch at first start-up like this. (No problems observed).

We then ran the car engine (static) for several hours over the next few days, prior to running the car to bed the engine in before we took the car to the dyno so it could have it's first engine oil change (to get it off running in oil before we mapped it for power map on the dyno).

With a smidge short of 100 miles ran on the ECU without the slightest hint of a problem, while driving in a straight line down the road, (with myself behind in another car), the 'in car scenario' was, dashboard lights flicker, internal gauges/lights flash/flicker for 5 seconds, during this time, the engine falters, hesitates then stalls while driving in traffic, in a straight line.

Externally, there was a "cough" of the car, then a cloud of un-spent fuel from the exhaust. Injectors are switched earth, so they had switched to fully open and white cloud was un-spent fuel. (I could smell the fuel from inside the car behind).

(This was the ECU consuming itself).

Consequent analysis of the likely cause:-
The wiring in this car is shockingly dreadful! There are wires everywhere for no reason, accessories and major components are all wire COMPLETELY wrong, wires twisted together without insulation throughout the whole car. Solder tracks running in thick globs on the back of the clocks.

Diodes/capacitors again recklessly loose and adrift in the car wiring, again un-insulated!

Mark to the best of my knowledge is NOT responsible directly for the dreadful state of this wiring. It is however unfortunartely as a result of a very careful examination of the circumstances of the failure, the cause of the failure.

We have not yet determined which specific wire caused the 12V feed to the ECU case as the GEMS tech report didn't come to us before we closed Friday afternoon, but save to say that it will be a result of the numerous shoddy and un-insulated open connections, scattered through numerous locations in the car as opposed to something we have been involved with electrically.

To be fair, I also understand Mark's position; a fault has developed, caused by his car, (as in not by fault/omission or failure at our hands), which I'm sure he'd (clearly) love to be someone elses fault or responsibility, heck in the same circumstances, who wouldn't want it to be someone elses responsibility?

The unfortunate side of this is that not only did Mark know the actual cause much earlier tonight, the reason I've posted now is that ALL the facts weren't being considered and that was swaying peoples comments more and more towards the opinion that "the garage" (us) had done something wrong, or might be responsible for this matter in some way when that is NOT true.

The fact that people have managed to identify the area of the problem has (I feel) been hampered and comments allowed to be swayed incorrectly by not telling the whole story and while some of the "opinions" given by some people are indeed accurate, they were never an actual issue in the first place based on assumptions made and information witheheld (I hope that makes sense)?

Mark has commented that it's not his "fault", I agree.

Based on what I know from him about which work he has carried out on the car. Everything he has had a hand in appears to have been done correctly and competently.
The fact remains though that while not at "fault" for the electrical problems on his car, "responsibility" of the state of that wiring and consequential damaged caused by it, DOES unfortunately lie with him as the owner. Nothing we have done with the car could have bought about this problem.

I hope that brings a little more clarity to this matter?


Mike
ScoobyMania Online Shop

noobyscooby

I think Scooby Mania has offered a fair assessment in the circumstances.

Best thing Mark and Scooby M can do now is sit down and talk it through sensibly over a cup of tea.

Sh"t hapens ... unfortunately and given what has happened, I certainly wouldn't put another ECU in the car until I had spent a few bob on a good auto-electrician tidying up the wiring first otherwise it could be another £1300 up the swannee.

If I were Mark, I'd ask Scooby Mania to talk nicely to GEMS and see if between them, given that he will have paid full price for the first ECU, he can have the second at cost.

Above all, stay cool - its only money after all - and you'll soon be on the loud pedal with 500 gee-gees under your toe!!

sl1000

Mike,

first of all. I think its great to come up here and tell your side

Your story indeed complements mark's story.
But still I have a remark.
I am an electronic engineer from occupasion, and when I am made responsible for something to get it to work, I find out what needs to be done to do it right. I know that's how you work also since you have a great reputation.
So if you found the wiring to be in a terrible state, you should have contacted mark and told him that it needed fixing.
Or even that It MUST be fixed before the car was completed and tested.
this because you have the knowhow and he doesn't.

So in my view there is at least a parcial responsibility with scooby mania.

Area 52 Autosport

Yep, agreed, in that as Mark has already pointed out, when it came in, we were of no reason to suspect any problems of that nature. I'm also fairly sure he didn't know either.

The issues were discovered after the ECU failure, prior to that, the car had initially been running perfectly OK and after being driven without issues.

We are now (Monday morning of course) looking for the very specific cause.


Mike

mattferret

i also think its good of you to come on here and give scoobymanias side of the situation. Not every garage would do so.

I feel for Mark as maybe he felt that with the car being like it was for the year prior to having this work cariied out, his thoughts are "something else must have caused this" - its a natural instinct, maybe if the car had been left it would have had an issue at some point...

I hope that you all get the situation resolved, as scoobymania have come here to freely explain whats gone on from their point of view, it appears that Mark will have more of a chance with you guys in a good compromise than with most.

Ill definitely be getting my gauges from the scoobymania shop now lol

catons scooby

hi mike,
look, i never said its not my fault or resbonasability, i said that it may be yours, monday you may go in and see a cable from the avcr you dissconnected has shorted out which indeed is your problem, then again if the led's have caused it its my problem, just as above i said its not impoosible to be either of us,
the post asks for help on what could cause the problem, so far a short in wiring that doesn't go to the ecu has not come to attention, thats why i have my doubts it may not be my fault,
i am an electrician, been so for over 6 years, i know how things work, so i cannot rule out it might not be your fault,
on monday ill get the email with confirmation as to why the ecu went pop, like i said above if its my fault its now my problem, and reversed, just because its a messy state behind the dashboard doesn't 100% prove its the wiring of my car, as any on here would agree.
cheers

mattferret

Mark,
please make sure you update this thread as its an interesting read to whats going on.
cheers matt

ps i hope you get the problem sorted and your pockets not too much lighter afterward

catons scooby

i will do,
afterall this forum is to solve problems, not argue about the blame, so will post as soon as problem is 100% solved,

sl1000

Mark, Mike,

I would expect that the issue will be resolved on monday in mutual agreement.
Problems happen it's how you deal with them.

catons scooby

sl1000 youve been a great help as soon as i find out how it happened ill post it so no one else is left guessing,
hopefully no1 else will go through this problem themselves.
cheers guys for all the help and points made and
thanks to mike for coming on here himself, like i said and know, they are top blokes down there and im sure ill be delighted with the results of the rebuild and if needed i'll always recomment them.