Uprated Fuel Pumps
09 July 2007, 12:02 AM
#92
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Couldn't you afford the car you really wanted then?
What was it?
Why would you pay good money for a car you don't want and then try to turn it into something else which you wanted and just end up with a chav mobile?
What was it?
Why would you pay good money for a car you don't want and then try to turn it into something else which you wanted and just end up with a chav mobile?
09 July 2007, 12:36 AM
#94
Scooby Regular
Thats pretty rare .... most people are scared off by a car thats been modified.
So, you did actually buy the car you wanted - thats a credit to you, and, as I said - unusual.
I take it you have left it as you bought it then?
So, you did actually buy the car you wanted - thats a credit to you, and, as I said - unusual.
I take it you have left it as you bought it then?
09 July 2007, 05:55 AM
#95
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Christ sake Pete give it a rest, yes some of your comments can be humerous,but you really don't do yourself any favours. People love modifying cars for all sorts of reasons.
My mate pi55es around with an old Mini in his garage, but not to make it go any faster it's because he enjoys it. Does that make him a Chav too?
If nobody enjoyed modifying and or talking of modifying cars then sites like SN would be unlikely to exist as there would be nothing to discuss.
If that were the case all you would be able to discuss is how many coats of polish you put on your slow and boring 2000 Turbo. Or as the Parkers manual states UK "Manic" WRX.
You didn't answer me yesterday Pete. Seriously do you own a Subaru and if so what Subaru do you drive and if it's so amazing why dont you bless us all with some pictures of it?
My mate pi55es around with an old Mini in his garage, but not to make it go any faster it's because he enjoys it. Does that make him a Chav too?
If nobody enjoyed modifying and or talking of modifying cars then sites like SN would be unlikely to exist as there would be nothing to discuss.
If that were the case all you would be able to discuss is how many coats of polish you put on your slow and boring 2000 Turbo. Or as the Parkers manual states UK "Manic" WRX.
You didn't answer me yesterday Pete. Seriously do you own a Subaru and if so what Subaru do you drive and if it's so amazing why dont you bless us all with some pictures of it?
09 July 2007, 10:45 AM
#96
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Doesn't Pete wind some people up a treat!
Oh, Walbros are £65 delivered here btw:
Indigo-GT: Online
If you are running over 320bhp of course.....
Oh, Walbros are £65 delivered here btw:
Indigo-GT: Online
If you are running over 320bhp of course.....
09 July 2007, 02:42 PM
#98
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Pete never replies to a well thought out comment or response to a thread.
He`s a total **** who will never listen to anything but his own misguided ramblings.
When mines mapped im putting a uprated fuel pump on for sure, the one on mine might be fine when it was running 215 bhp
When its mapped it will be around 320bhp so it will then need an uprated model.
He`s a total **** who will never listen to anything but his own misguided ramblings.
When mines mapped im putting a uprated fuel pump on for sure, the one on mine might be fine when it was running 215 bhp
When its mapped it will be around 320bhp so it will then need an uprated model.
09 July 2007, 03:23 PM
#100
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PPP upgrade does include an uprated fuel pump.
My basic understanding would be that more power generally comes from burning more fuel / air mixture (I know there is more to it but this is key) so if the standard item can only feed at a certain rate then the cylinders would be starved of fuel! If this is not the case then performance cars would be doing 35mpg! The turbo compresses the intake air and feeds it under pressure in to the cylinders, the bigger the turbo the more air (oxygen) to burn. I would think that what the guy means is if you are going to fit a larger turbo then it will perform better with a fuel pump that can match the demand.
My basic understanding would be that more power generally comes from burning more fuel / air mixture (I know there is more to it but this is key) so if the standard item can only feed at a certain rate then the cylinders would be starved of fuel! If this is not the case then performance cars would be doing 35mpg! The turbo compresses the intake air and feeds it under pressure in to the cylinders, the bigger the turbo the more air (oxygen) to burn. I would think that what the guy means is if you are going to fit a larger turbo then it will perform better with a fuel pump that can match the demand.
09 July 2007, 10:05 PM
#104
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ps does have a point, there have been no technical bods stating true accurate figures for standard and uprated
i agree with what others have said too its better being safe than sorry (but out of pocket)
i agree with what others have said too its better being safe than sorry (but out of pocket)
09 July 2007, 10:41 PM
#106
Ecu Specialist
Some comment.
1. The factory pump does not have enough headroom in 90% of the cases.
2. The fuel pressure reg does not control flow ... just pressure.
3. A higher capacity pump will delivery more flow into any given pressure, and the factory reg will be over pressured by such a pump due to the "force of flow" being applied to it.
4. Given the relationship between pressure and flow through a fixed orifice then an injector will allow more fuel into the cylinder for the same opening time.
Not rocket science and is basic fluid dynamics.
lol
bob
1. The factory pump does not have enough headroom in 90% of the cases.
2. The fuel pressure reg does not control flow ... just pressure.
3. A higher capacity pump will delivery more flow into any given pressure, and the factory reg will be over pressured by such a pump due to the "force of flow" being applied to it.
4. Given the relationship between pressure and flow through a fixed orifice then an injector will allow more fuel into the cylinder for the same opening time.
Not rocket science and is basic fluid dynamics.
lol
bob
09 July 2007, 10:45 PM
#107
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Some comment.
1. The factory pump does not have enough headroom in 90% of the cases.
2. The fuel pressure reg does not control flow ... just pressure.
3. A higher capacity pump will delivery more flow into any given pressure, and the factory reg will be over pressured by such a pump due to the "force of flow" being applied to it.
4. Given the relationship between pressure and flow through a fixed orifice then an injector will allow more fuel into the cylinder for the same opening time.
Not rocket science and is basic fluid dynamics.
lol
bob
1. The factory pump does not have enough headroom in 90% of the cases.
2. The fuel pressure reg does not control flow ... just pressure.
3. A higher capacity pump will delivery more flow into any given pressure, and the factory reg will be over pressured by such a pump due to the "force of flow" being applied to it.
4. Given the relationship between pressure and flow through a fixed orifice then an injector will allow more fuel into the cylinder for the same opening time.
Not rocket science and is basic fluid dynamics.
lol
bob
Thank for that-a sensible explanation.
Come on pslewis-make some cocky comments
09 July 2007, 10:57 PM
#108
Scooby Regular
Some comment.
1. The factory pump does not have enough headroom in 90% of the cases.
2. The fuel pressure reg does not control flow ... just pressure.
3. A higher capacity pump will delivery more flow into any given pressure, and the factory reg will be over pressured by such a pump due to the "force of flow" being applied to it.
4. Given the relationship between pressure and flow through a fixed orifice then an injector will allow more fuel into the cylinder for the same opening time.
Not rocket science and is basic fluid dynamics.
lol
bob
1. The factory pump does not have enough headroom in 90% of the cases.
2. The fuel pressure reg does not control flow ... just pressure.
3. A higher capacity pump will delivery more flow into any given pressure, and the factory reg will be over pressured by such a pump due to the "force of flow" being applied to it.
4. Given the relationship between pressure and flow through a fixed orifice then an injector will allow more fuel into the cylinder for the same opening time.
Not rocket science and is basic fluid dynamics.
lol
bob
This is EXACTLY what I am on about .... amateurs spreading scare stories and Baseless claims
2. Granted, thats why it's called a PRESSURE Regulator .... Most modern fuel injected cars run a fuel pump in the tank and run much more fuel than is needed to the fuel rail. A regulator keeps a certain amount of fuel pressure in the rail and then sends the rest back to the tank. I think the Impreza has a one to one fuel regulator. It varies the fuel pressure by 'watching' manifold pressure. It uses a diaphragm to control pressure.
3. EH?? Overpressurized?? So, you want to sell us another uprated Regulator with the uneeded uprated pump? Classic!!
4. But the Regulator dictates the pressure ... an uprated pump can supply more fuel but the pressure is dictated by the Reg. or do you want to mess about with THAT too!!
Sorry, for 99% of the modded cars out there a standard pump is perfectly fine - I will believe this until someone, somewhere, somehow, produces the specs for the standard pump and what they are for the uprated pumps!!
Read the words on the websites for these uprated fuel pumps - they cleverly avoid all claims of the magic their pumps will perform - they talk in riddles to make you believe their pumps are needed and will change your love life!!
Smell the coffee people ............. WE WANT NUMBERS!!!!
Last edited by pslewis; 09 July 2007 at 11:32 PM.
09 July 2007, 11:26 PM
#109
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1. 90% of what cases? 90% of all Mods? How can you make such a sweeping statement like that without hard numbers?
This is EXACTLY what I am on about .... amateur Engineers who tinker, spreading scare stories Baseless claims
2. Granted, thats why it's called a PRESSURE Regulator .... Most modern fuel injected cars run a fuel pump in the tank and run much more fuel than is needed to the fuel rail. A regulator keeps a certain amount of fuel pressure in the rail and then sends the rest back to the tank. I think the Impreza has a one to one fuel regulator. It varies the fuel pressure by 'watching' manifold pressure. It uses a diaphragm to control pressure.
3. EH?? Overpressurized?? So, you want to sell us another uprated Regulator with the uneeded uprated pump? Classic!!
4. But the Regulator dictates the pressure ... an uprated pump can supply more fuel but the pressure is dictated by the Reg. or do you want to mess about with THAT too!!
Sorry, for 99% of the modded cars out there a standard pump is perfectly fine - I will believe this until someone, somewhere, somehow, produces the specs for the standard pump and what they are for the uprated pumps!!
Read the words on the websites for these uprated fuel pumps - they cleverly avoid all claims of the magic their pumps will perform - they talk in riddles to make you believe their pumps are needed and will change your love life!!
Smell the coffee people ............. WE WANT NUMBERS!!!!
This is EXACTLY what I am on about .... amateur Engineers who tinker, spreading scare stories
Baseless claims 2. Granted, thats why it's called a PRESSURE Regulator .... Most modern fuel injected cars run a fuel pump in the tank and run much more fuel than is needed to the fuel rail. A regulator keeps a certain amount of fuel pressure in the rail and then sends the rest back to the tank. I think the Impreza has a one to one fuel regulator. It varies the fuel pressure by 'watching' manifold pressure. It uses a diaphragm to control pressure.
3. EH?? Overpressurized?? So, you want to sell us another uprated Regulator with the uneeded uprated pump? Classic!!
4. But the Regulator dictates the pressure ... an uprated pump can supply more fuel but the pressure is dictated by the Reg. or do you want to mess about with THAT too!!
Sorry, for 99% of the modded cars out there a standard pump is perfectly fine - I will believe this until someone, somewhere, somehow, produces the specs for the standard pump and what they are for the uprated pumps!!
Read the words on the websites for these uprated fuel pumps - they cleverly avoid all claims of the magic their pumps will perform - they talk in riddles to make you believe their pumps are needed and will change your love life!!
Smell the coffee people ............. WE WANT NUMBERS!!!!
09 July 2007, 11:41 PM
#111
Scooby Regular
Is he a Chartered Engineer? I'm open to an equal battle if need be - but I don't want to be too harsh on a well meaning member.
Simply by stating that an uprated pump is needed in 90% of cases blows any credibility, which is a pity, as I would love a proper Engineer to come and put this to bed once and for all.
All we need are the figures ...................
09 July 2007, 11:47 PM
#112
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Bob is well meaning and highly regarded by the ***** - not sure about his Engineering background and qualifications?
Is he a Chartered Engineer? I'm open to an equal battle if need be - but I don't want to be too harsh on a well meaning member.
Simply by stating that an uprated pump is needed in 90% of cases blows any credibility, which is a pity, as I would love a proper Engineer to come and put this to bed once and for all.
All we need are the figures ...................
Is he a Chartered Engineer? I'm open to an equal battle if need be - but I don't want to be too harsh on a well meaning member.
Simply by stating that an uprated pump is needed in 90% of cases blows any credibility, which is a pity, as I would love a proper Engineer to come and put this to bed once and for all.
All we need are the figures ...................
Cant you put this to bed once and for all and explain how we don't need uprated fuel pumps
I do have to say I have been following this thread (only hi-jacked it once) and tbh I can see the argument from both sides, although Pete you are being a bit more forceful than you could be, and your fellow members
Can both sides back up their claims, now that would be better reading
09 July 2007, 11:50 PM
#113
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Bob is well meaning and highly regarded by the ***** - not sure about his Engineering background and qualifications?
Is he a Chartered Engineer? I'm open to an equal battle if need be - but I don't want to be too harsh on a well meaning member.
Simply by stating that an uprated pump is needed in 90% of cases blows any credibility, which is a pity, as I would love a proper Engineer to come and put this to bed once and for all.
All we need are the figures ...................
Is he a Chartered Engineer? I'm open to an equal battle if need be - but I don't want to be too harsh on a well meaning member.
Simply by stating that an uprated pump is needed in 90% of cases blows any credibility, which is a pity, as I would love a proper Engineer to come and put this to bed once and for all.
All we need are the figures ...................
This thread is getting seriously boring and as usual has been taken over
with the usual bull**** from you
10 July 2007, 12:02 AM
#114
Pete is a nuclear rocket scientist or somesuch
Not that I would estimate that HMG under-engineers a single piece of their expensive nuclear deterant
In fact, it's probably that over-engineering by "scientists" wishing to justify their existence that makes the whole thing bloody expensive to start with
Not that I would estimate that HMG under-engineers a single piece of their expensive nuclear deterant
In fact, it's probably that over-engineering by "scientists" wishing to justify their existence that makes the whole thing bloody expensive to start with
10 July 2007, 08:25 AM
#115
Scooby Regular
I agree that the Nuclear Deterrent is well Engineered ...... makes an Impreza look like a stroll in the park - which is where I come in.
My mission, "To Offer those on ScoobyNet the alternative viewpoint, backed up by solid Engineering Knowledge and a massive Bullsh1t filter"
The Bullsh1t filter is what that ***** object to ...... as we all know
My mission, "To Offer those on ScoobyNet the alternative viewpoint, backed up by solid Engineering Knowledge and a massive Bullsh1t filter"
The Bullsh1t filter is what that ***** object to ...... as we all know
10 July 2007, 09:27 AM
#116
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Not that I think this topic should continue but I'd like to add my real experience to the mix...
I'm running a highly modified 2.5L with uprated reg and uprated pump, my fuel pressure (from pump) drops off above 5,000 revs so I need to get a motorsport pump now - no way could my original lower pressure oe pump do the necessary - this was all confirmed via my SPA fuel pressure gauge and mapping at the time. Motorsport pump on order!
I'm running a highly modified 2.5L with uprated reg and uprated pump, my fuel pressure (from pump) drops off above 5,000 revs so I need to get a motorsport pump now - no way could my original lower pressure oe pump do the necessary - this was all confirmed via my SPA fuel pressure gauge and mapping at the time. Motorsport pump on order!
10 July 2007, 09:28 AM
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Pete
You have made some very valid points and I agree that an uprated pump is not needed in many circumstances. No standard car should need the pump changing and if they do due to the original one lacking in performance then a standard one is more than acceptable.
ALL Sti PPP cars have a pump fitted and it's not just a case of us fleecing the customer for something that isn't needed. We were hoping to not need one in the first place and haven't charged any more for it either.
No WRX PPP has a pump fitted as it's just not necessary so I guess the 90% figure would be correct if only 10% of Impreza WRX and STi have been modified to over 300hp be that with a PPP or some other mods. Our basic thoughts are that if you have a 2.0 WRX with std injectors, you don't need to uprate the pump but some others may disagree. You need to be led by whoever you are trusting to remap the car, it's their reputation after all!
As part of our PPP development we have spent a lot of time (and therefore money so I'm not about to share the numbers!) characterising the injectors and fuel pumps on a special rig we built to work out what's going on. There is a basic thing that seems to have been missed so far in that the fuel pump may have enough capacity when the cars running std boost and fuelling but normally as you increase performance the boost pressure goes up and hence the regulator ups the fuel pressure to match. The pump then may not be able to flow as much at the new higher pressure, hence you need a new one.
Don't take this the wrong way Pete but think a little about the criticism you have for people modifying their cars. If you don't like how your house is then do you move to the perfect one each time you want to decorate a room, or change the garden, or get sick of the layout of the kitchen? Of course you don't, you change what you've got to make it better for YOU. Nobody has invented the perfect car, just in the same way as they haven't invented the perfect house or the perfect computer.
I do have an uprated pump on my car, but then it does have at least 80bhp more than std.............
Mike
You have made some very valid points and I agree that an uprated pump is not needed in many circumstances. No standard car should need the pump changing and if they do due to the original one lacking in performance then a standard one is more than acceptable.
ALL Sti PPP cars have a pump fitted and it's not just a case of us fleecing the customer for something that isn't needed. We were hoping to not need one in the first place and haven't charged any more for it either.
No WRX PPP has a pump fitted as it's just not necessary so I guess the 90% figure would be correct if only 10% of Impreza WRX and STi have been modified to over 300hp be that with a PPP or some other mods. Our basic thoughts are that if you have a 2.0 WRX with std injectors, you don't need to uprate the pump but some others may disagree. You need to be led by whoever you are trusting to remap the car, it's their reputation after all!
As part of our PPP development we have spent a lot of time (and therefore money so I'm not about to share the numbers!) characterising the injectors and fuel pumps on a special rig we built to work out what's going on. There is a basic thing that seems to have been missed so far in that the fuel pump may have enough capacity when the cars running std boost and fuelling but normally as you increase performance the boost pressure goes up and hence the regulator ups the fuel pressure to match. The pump then may not be able to flow as much at the new higher pressure, hence you need a new one.
Don't take this the wrong way Pete but think a little about the criticism you have for people modifying their cars. If you don't like how your house is then do you move to the perfect one each time you want to decorate a room, or change the garden, or get sick of the layout of the kitchen? Of course you don't, you change what you've got to make it better for YOU. Nobody has invented the perfect car, just in the same way as they haven't invented the perfect house or the perfect computer.
I do have an uprated pump on my car, but then it does have at least 80bhp more than std.............
Mike
10 July 2007, 10:42 AM
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10 July 2007, 10:59 AM
#120
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actually i should have added this....
my car 97wrx
vf23 turbo @ 1.44 bar peak (fuel cuts at 1.45bar)
i found at this boost level the car was running a little lean at full boost, not by much, considering but it was running a little lean, IIRC the lambda was showing around 855 to 875mv, anyway this is on a 100k miles fuel pump, so i changed it for a £20 special from ebay, listed as a "sti8 fuel pump removed due to ppp" or something along them lines
i fitted it with a few small mods (wiring was different and the new pump was smaller) and my full boost fueling jumped up to 895mv, which is about right.
bear in mind my car was 276ps as standard, so its not like a uk car powerwise, maybe the uk cars had a different/smaller pump than the imports?
not sure what the vf23 @ 1.45 peak and whatever it can hold to the redline makes power wise, but it should be quite a jump over standard
i did not need a pump.
my car 97wrx
vf23 turbo @ 1.44 bar peak (fuel cuts at 1.45bar)
i found at this boost level the car was running a little lean at full boost, not by much, considering but it was running a little lean, IIRC the lambda was showing around 855 to 875mv, anyway this is on a 100k miles fuel pump, so i changed it for a £20 special from ebay, listed as a "sti8 fuel pump removed due to ppp" or something along them lines
i fitted it with a few small mods (wiring was different and the new pump was smaller) and my full boost fueling jumped up to 895mv, which is about right.
bear in mind my car was 276ps as standard, so its not like a uk car powerwise, maybe the uk cars had a different/smaller pump than the imports?
not sure what the vf23 @ 1.45 peak and whatever it can hold to the redline makes power wise, but it should be quite a jump over standard
i did not need a pump.