subaruian

iTrader: (4)

so i should get
1.charge temp sensor
2.sti8 tmic
3.TDO4H
4.uprated fuel pump


=300bhp?

Andy.F

Don't waste your money on No1

Harvey, it looks like you have pushed your turbo out of its efficiency range on that set up.

Andy

subaruian

iTrader: (4)

ok thanks do i go for a walbro fuel pump? i think im right?

DIPSY

See the newage Jdm sti intercooler 05 onwards with the indentation to me this intercooler looks bigger and deeper than a uk newage sti .Am i right or wrong??

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I believe you have made an exceptionally shrewd observation.
In fact, 335 bhp and 333 ft.lbs on OE injectors, FPR, turbo, TMIC and ECU and I think they are all on the edge but it is 335 bhp for very little money.

Surely it is better to monitor charge temperatures than not. At least then you know what is happening.
How about a P1 on a VF28 at 309 bhp with serious charge temperature issues?
Or an STi 5 at 323 bhp also with charge temperatures issues or an MY 99 UK again at 320 something but the owner now has a front mount intercooler and no issues. Lots of other examples.

Andy.F

Define "serious charge temperature issues" ? What exactly is serious about it ?

Subaru designed the P1 to run at almost the output you quote and in far hotter climates that we ever see in the UK.

Increasing charge temperature is accompanied by a reduction in air density, this in turn reduces the charge air load per cycle and hence pressure in the cylinder, this will reduce power. The increasing temperature is largely self regulating with respect to engine loading and risk of detonation. Thats why you don't need to map cars massively differently on a cold day to a hot day.

Your car made 335bhp on this fairly simple set up, one assumes it was achieved in the absence of detonation. How much more do you expect it will make with a cheap fmic on there ?

The rookie

iTrader: (1)

Not sure i agree with Andy, anything over 15C over ambient would be considered too high by most OEM's, auto ignition is purely temperature related, so the higher the temperature at the start of compression, the higher at the end (related to pressure, volume and temp, not mass or density after all), so anything you can do to reduce temps is all to the good in my mind (CAI, IC tilt, water spray etc etc, even the much overlooked legacy charge cooler!)

Simon

Andy.F

If only it was that simple when applied to a complete engine/turbo package. In your explanation above, when at idle (where you often have very high temps due to heat soak) you would be getting detonation !
The charge density drops with increasing temperature, as does the boost pressure which has a stabilising effect on the temperature rise.
Its the opposite of seeing overboost on a cold day which can also lead to detonation with a dense cold charge.

I do agree that reducing temperature is good but not at the expense of increased lag and increased pressure drop due to poor pipe design.

I have done considerable research into this and still use a TMIC on my race car with circa 700-800bhp. Even at this level I consider it a priority to minimise pressure drop and lag by using short pipework with the minimum amount of smooth unstepped bends.

Andy

Dan 2

iTrader: (2)

You can tell me what you think of my Hyperflow TMIC Andy when i eventually pop along to get my car mapped. Lets hope it is as good as people say it is, if not -it's getting binned for an STi 7/8/9 TMIC....
Which i probalbly should have fitted in the first place..


Frank.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

When pressing on cross country with the top mount driving at say seven tenths, typical charge temperatures are 30 to 60 degrees C and as I have already shown, with vigorous driving it is possible to exceed 70 deg.C. There will be lots of Classic cars in exactly the same position but the owners may or may not be aware of the potential danger if they are not monitoring charge temperatures.
You keep making reference to cheap FMICs. These are the Hybrid GT FMICs that you have used in the past and been very happy with. Your current stance is more to do with your personal agenda than the practicality of an efficient, cost effective FMIC available to anybody that wants one.
I have tried to measure the pressure drop on several occasions but it is relatively small and the guages I used were too large a scale to give meaningful information but I do know the pressure drop must be less than 1 psi max at around 1 bar. I think Andrew Carr tried to do the same and I don't know what his results were.
With a Front Mount Intercooler there will be a small power gain because of the lower charge temperatures but the main reason for fitting an FMIC is to add safety to the engine. You are working the car hard to get the FMIC to occasionally approach 12 degrees over ambient and 6 degrees over ambient is a more common figure and this is at 422 bhp. In the cruise the temperature is never more than 2 degrees over ambient.
Regardless of what you say, the "cheap" Hybrid GT FMIC serves a lot of Subaru owners very well and achieves stable temperatures that I have not seen from any TMIC on a Classic and while many owners are prepared to buy a reasonably priced FMIC they are not prepared to spend a substantial amount more for a Hyperflow which cannot achieve the Hybrid GT FMIC stable temperatures anyhow.

Tidgy

have a read of this


http://www.scoobyclinic.com/download...coolertest.pdf

Andy.F

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm not saying don't fit one. I have mapped many on the 93-96 cars and they are an improvement over the little slanty unit. Its just that on the 97- cars where there is room to fit a later Sti7 onwards TMIC then this is a better option..... in my opinion and many others (such as Litchfields type 25)

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Thanks for taking the trouble to post that Tidgy. That is the article that I referred to earlier and it confirms what many of us already knew. Well done Scooby Clinic for taking the time and effort to run the comparative tests.

Andy.F

The Scoobyclinic test did not include the Sti 7/8/9 intercooler I recommend.
Harveys tests are also on the much smaller 97 intercooler.

I have test graphs of an Sti7 TMIC v FMIC on my previous WRX at 390bhp which show exactly the same power. Lag and throttle response were worse though.

A FMIC will always look better than it actually is when on a rolling road as most rollers are not capable of simulating proper TMIC airflow rates.

If your priority is a dyno figure then go FMIC, however if you have a post 97 car with 300-450bhp and you want maximum response and minimum lag for fast road and track use then go for the Sti TMIC. Above 450bhp I'd recommend a quality FMIC as previously listed.

I have no agenda here, I'm not the one selling intercoolers !

Andy

The rookie

iTrader: (1)

Actually NO, as the pressure at idle is about 35kPa absolute, so it backs my logic up totally...I thank you! (Pressurexvolume/temp constant - all absolute values of course, so pressure in kPa from zero, temp in K)

Thats not to say I don't agree that generally a TMIC is better for fast road cars than a laggier FMIC.

Simon

Andy.F

At least we agree on the main part Simon

My ref to temperature at idle was almost tounge in cheek with reference to your comment "auto ignition is purely temperature related, so the higher the temperature at the start of compression, the higher at the end" As we both know, pressure is obviously a major player. On most set ups where the turbo is working close to maximum output, plenum pressure tends to drop as charge temp increases hence partly offsetting the rise in cylinder pressure due to increasing CT.
The safety margins decided during mapping should be able to cope with all conditions. Mapping would normally take place under varying conditions, simulating a B road blast for example.
If the intercooler is undersized for the loading (as in Harveys case) then you simply run less boost to retain a sensible safety level.

Andy

sandyRS16i

iTrader: (13)

very interesting read this thread, i have been considering my STI V5 TMIC for a later V7 TMIC, but plenty folks keep saying go FMIC, i knew the Litchfield cars run 400+ on a TMIC i dont want that figure yet, i just want to improve efficiency at cooling. I have heard reports too that fitting the cheap FMIC's no only increase lag but also are less effective as they tend to have less internal resistance to cool the air, they only appear as good due to the increased surface area.

having read thru this thread, i think my plan now is deffo to go STI7 TMIC, although i have been offered a cheap TMIC, but not sure if its any better than what i have.

but i must say this thread is very useful in the information its providng can a uprated TMIC be fitted without any requirement for a remap tho?

Mick

iTrader: (1)

Nice to see this topic still generating interest...

I have a pretty standard 97MY UK car giving 242 bhp last year.

I have recently put on a centre decat and now I have got hold of 2003 WRX intercooler.

Not after massive power just picking up cheap bits as I go along. I believe this is a relatively simple mod - just the brackets and BOV connection? Is it worth messing with?

Any advice appreciated

Ta

Mick

subaruian

iTrader: (4)

i was after a rough price of acheving 300bhp with a sti8 tmic could anybody please give me a price please???

scoobboy

iTrader: (3)

Well i just sold an STI 8 one for £200 + delivery inc the intercooler, alloy y piece, silcone hose and dump valve.

P1 FEK

iTrader: (1)

So the STI8 TMIC is only more effective when used with the STI8 scoop?

IMHO this spoils the look of the classic shape and looks out of place.

subaruian

iTrader: (4)

harvey

iTrader: (48)

It is quite simple. Even an uprated top mount cannot achieve the low temperatures available from a front mount such as the Hybrid. If you are not prepared to measure the charge temperatures you are talking from a point of ignorance. Over a period of time I have monitored charge temperatures on Classics and New Age cars with both OE top mounts and after market front mounts.
You can consistently run quite close to ambient temperature with a Hybrid front mount but even with a New Age top mount you can typically be 20 deg.C over ambient without even trying hard. The choice is yours.
I run both Hybrid front mount and APS. I had to buy five APS to get the price down to £1150 each delivered after customs. I can honestly say there is no appreciable difference in the performance of the Hybrid and the APS. So much for sniping at "cheap intercoolers". These represent good cost effective value for money and considerably add safety particularly where power has been increased.
The biggest criticism I have of the Hybrid is the hot pipe running from the compressor outlet over the top of the turbo and on my own installations this has been easily solved simply by clocking the turbo compressor outlet through 180 degrees and dispensing with the hot pipe. Other than that the Hybrid is a cracking piece of kit for the money. Unfortunately there are not enough STi 8 OE TMICs available to satisfy demand even although they will run far warmer than FMICs.

scoobyDAZZA

vf24 for sale in the general items for sale section

come off my mates car , low miles , perfect working order
£110 DELIVERED

daz

to add , i had a hyperflow TMIC and changed to a 'cheap' autobahn88 FMIC and it ran alot better .
click 'view my scooby' for the rest of my spec . the autobahn FM is fine , even with 450+ on mine

500

Standard bar an exhaust P1 here (other half's) made 316 BHP 298 lb/ft

I would stick with the turbo choices of Andy f if you want to keep it at this level
Uprate the TMIC, and fuel pump and you're away

Zola-the-master

What an amazing thread, A very interesting read but come on boys.... Whats the answer to the original question....??

Andy.F

At least you acknowledge one of the Hybrids shortcomings, I have already mentioned in this thread that the actual core is decent, its the complete package thats less appealing, such as that small bore 180 degree bend off the turbo exit. How many are prepared to 'clock' their turbo to improve this ?

The additional fmic associated issues with compressor surge, having to chop up your bumper and inner wing which can only devalue the car, increased lag after a gearshift etc all point to the large tmic being a better option whilst it can cope with the heat load.

So to answer the original question, an uprated TMIC would be the best option.

Andy

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Sorry but I don't see it that way and the Scooby Clinic/Japanese Performance article posted by Tidgy is exactly in line with my own findings. Referring to Classics the best up rated top mounts, such as a Hyperflow which are relatively expensive or the fitment of a New Age top mount will improve the situation but charge temperatures will still be, typically 20 deg C and more, quite easily a long way ahead of a good front mount, even with the hot pipe going over the top of the turbo. So a good FMIC will produce more power with lower charge temps and it will typically run up to 12 C over ambient if pushed hard whereas you will typically run a GOOD TMIC 20C over ambient without trying and substantially more when driven hard.
Earlier you advised Subaruian not to bother monitoring charge temperatures. How unwise is that ? It is better to know what is happening so you can drive accordingly and unless you have been moitoring charge temps as I have been doing for the last two years then you are not really equipped to have a definative view from a position of practical experience.

To answer Subaruian's question, at 300 bhp you will be OK with a New age top mount but a Hybrid FMIC would do a better job and allow for future power increases.

Goodbye.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

After reading this thread a few times I am left wondering about charge temps.

There are various temp figures stated in this thread. I would like to know what exactly is happening when for example 60c is reached. Are we saying that detonation will/may occur? Or will it be just loss of power?

I have no idea what my charge temps are btw.

The reason I ask is that I never see any knock from my setup, either from the commander display or the knocklink. This is using an STI8 IC.

I don't do track days but it does get pushed hard on the road, circumstances permitting.

I also agree that cutting the inner wing and bumper etc put me off the front mount.

SUBARUNUTTA

WHAT A GOOD READ

KEEP IT UP LADS IT REALLY HELPS

GRT DETAILS FROM ANDY F HARVEY

THANX