2.5 - lets hear your experiences good and bad
#91
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Flippety, flip, flip! How can you do that Alan?!
Or from the US.
eBay Motors: Brand New Subaru STi Short Block (item 4574550680 end time Dec-03-06 12:59:16 PST)
Or from the US.
eBay Motors: Brand New Subaru STi Short Block (item 4574550680 end time Dec-03-06 12:59:16 PST)
#96
I wish someone could source the 2.5 semi CDB bare, nothing in it.
Simply then buy uprated crank/rods/pistons as you can for the rebuild with the bhp level you want.
You can then get there in affordable instalments.
As to the ebay/USA source, remember the duties you will attact when shipped.
Great thread.
Graham
Simply then buy uprated crank/rods/pistons as you can for the rebuild with the bhp level you want.
You can then get there in affordable instalments.
As to the ebay/USA source, remember the duties you will attact when shipped.
Great thread.
Graham
Last edited by 911; 11 November 2006 at 08:21 AM.
#99
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Originally Posted by 911
I wish someone could source the 2.5 semi CDB bare, nothing in it.
Simply then buy uprated crank/rods/pistons as you can for the rebuild with the bhp level you want.
You can then get there in affordable instalments.
As to the ebay/USA source, remember the duties you will attact when shipped.
Great thread.
Graham
Simply then buy uprated crank/rods/pistons as you can for the rebuild with the bhp level you want.
You can then get there in affordable instalments.
As to the ebay/USA source, remember the duties you will attact when shipped.
Great thread.
Graham
Many people fall foul of HMRC charges when buying from abroad direct, the bill from import Tax and VAT arriving after the parts have been received has been likened to waiting for an NIP for speeding to turn up, especially with bigger stuff.
#100
When my Crawford 2.5 short engine came over HMRC tried to charge me 4% import duties as they described the product as an engine, when I told them it was PART of an engine the duty was lowered to 2.5%. I cant recall the exact saving but it was over £100.
#101
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Originally Posted by AlanG
If you want the car back on the road in minimal time and it's only a question of which engine to put in (2.5 or 2.0), i'd probably drop in the 2.5 for piece of mind (cause it's new), map it and be done with it.
If you're not in so much of a rush you could start searching for a complete secondhand 2.0 engine and drop that straight in. Money for money will probably work out similar to above.
After that the pressure's off to rebuild your original engine. Source and price parts to rebuild it at your leisure, you'll find that uprated components can probably be had for less than original replacements.
Yes i run Arrow rods Des.
If you're not in so much of a rush you could start searching for a complete secondhand 2.0 engine and drop that straight in. Money for money will probably work out similar to above.
After that the pressure's off to rebuild your original engine. Source and price parts to rebuild it at your leisure, you'll find that uprated components can probably be had for less than original replacements.
Yes i run Arrow rods Des.
there is no rush as need a bit of time to save up the dosh to do it. I do like the idea of getting the 2.5 ffrom outside the uk and what you save put in some better pistons etc then rebuild my at lesiure and a spare engine to put back in to sell with car when it goes or just to sell on to get a bit of money back.
Just weighing up the prices at the moment of the rebuild option on mine over a shiny new 2.5, I am also getting some prices from japan as well for the 2.5 and the sti 9 rebuild components. I'd rather wait a bit till I have found the extra to do a proper job rather then rush it just to get it back on road and then 6 montsha later wish I had done those bits, as mentioned earlier, regret the things yoy havent done
Last edited by *smiles*; 11 November 2006 at 10:37 AM.
#102
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Originally Posted by 911
I wish someone could source the 2.5 semi CDB bare, nothing in it.
Simply then buy uprated crank/rods/pistons as you can for the rebuild with the bhp level you want.
You can then get there in affordable instalments.
As to the ebay/USA source, remember the duties you will attact when shipped.
Great thread.
Graham
Simply then buy uprated crank/rods/pistons as you can for the rebuild with the bhp level you want.
You can then get there in affordable instalments.
As to the ebay/USA source, remember the duties you will attact when shipped.
Great thread.
Graham
#103
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I'd rather wait a bit till I have found the extra to do a proper job rather then rush it just to get it back on road and then 6 montsha later wish I had done those bits,
Curiosity is one of the biggest problems in my opinion. I wonder what it would be like with 400bhp?... I wonder what it would be like with 450bhp?.. and so on.
If you can afford to do it, then great, but you get to a point where you've committed so much money into the "project", that you reach a sort of "point of no return", coupled with a car so powerful, you've created a monster which is greater than the driver you are (or most of us at least) and becomes less useable on road, the higher the horsepower figure goes.
In hindsight with my experience to date, doing it again, i'd stop at 350bhp as an overall value for money, enjoyable, reliable package, but you can't convince anyone else to do so, since natural human curiosity will make them want to experience it for themselves.
#104
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Originally Posted by AlanG
With that in mind, set yourself a goal of what you want to aim for, price it, then see if it's doable in reality, rather than just a wish list.
Curiosity is one of the biggest problems in my opinion. I wonder what it would be like with 400bhp?... I wonder what it would be like with 450bhp?.. and so on.
If you can afford to do it, then great, but you get to a point where you've committed so much money into the "project", that you reach a sort of "point of no return", coupled with a car so powerful, you've created a monster which is greater than the driver you are (or most of us at least) and becomes less useable on road, the higher the horsepower figure goes.
In hindsight with my experience to date, doing it again, i'd stop at 350bhp as an overall value for money, enjoyable, reliable package, but you can't convince anyone else to do so, since natural human curiosity will make them want to experience it for themselves.
Curiosity is one of the biggest problems in my opinion. I wonder what it would be like with 400bhp?... I wonder what it would be like with 450bhp?.. and so on.
If you can afford to do it, then great, but you get to a point where you've committed so much money into the "project", that you reach a sort of "point of no return", coupled with a car so powerful, you've created a monster which is greater than the driver you are (or most of us at least) and becomes less useable on road, the higher the horsepower figure goes.
In hindsight with my experience to date, doing it again, i'd stop at 350bhp as an overall value for money, enjoyable, reliable package, but you can't convince anyone else to do so, since natural human curiosity will make them want to experience it for themselves.
And hindsight is a beautiful thing
I guess as previously mentioned this thread will be caught in a perpetual loop and we are back at the first post again ...
Quote me "...with power of hindsight anything you would do different"
so lets have a vote for if people were doing it all again with a cap of 350, this time round would you use a 2.0 or 2.5 to achieve this.
#105
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Originally Posted by AlanG
With that in mind, set yourself a goal of what you want to aim for, price it, then see if it's doable in reality, rather than just a wish list.
Maybe a big power 2.5 wagon can be the next project If I can find a shed or worksop ready for next winter, maybe able to get myself setup to build one DIY
#106
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Its like the starbucks syndrome, it used to be easy buying a coffee, now you have at least twenty to choose from
I just normally end up saying, sod it, just give me a Tea
I just normally end up saying, sod it, just give me a Tea
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I think i'd always choose to uprate the block, when it's out, as it would bother me too much when it's all fitted minus the "good stuff", but good stuff needn't cost the earth.
Ok i didn't do my rods, but they weren't deemed needed for my turbo/rev limit and i don't reckon i will ever go above 450hp.
If i was to build another scoob, i'm not saying i would do it with a 2.5 litre, but i'd PREFER to have the 2.5.
Ok i didn't do my rods, but they weren't deemed needed for my turbo/rev limit and i don't reckon i will ever go above 450hp.
If i was to build another scoob, i'm not saying i would do it with a 2.5 litre, but i'd PREFER to have the 2.5.
#108
Originally Posted by AlanG
In hindsight with my experience to date, doing it again, i'd stop at 350bhp as an overall value for money, enjoyable, reliable package, but you can't convince anyone else to do so, since natural human curiosity will make them want to experience it for themselves.
*smiles* - go for the 2.5... you wont regret it (except from a bank balance perspective). I initially ran the car with a TD05 (wastegate wired open) and the 2.5 felt pretty quick without a turbo (though amusingly it was still making 0.5 bar boost ... must be all that extra exhaust gas from the 2.5). It's just a really, really nice drive.
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Originally Posted by DesR
*smiles* - go for the 2.5... you wont regret it (except from a bank balance perspective). ...
what sort of price is a 2.5 going to cost for the shortblock, what extra bits do i need to factor in over say a 2.0 rebuild, I understand some of the ancillaries I can transfer over and having sti5 heads must be a good starter over say a uk head.
is there any difference between say a 2.5 from the us or a JDM one, are there different 2.5's or are they all the same
#110
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Originally Posted by Neilo
you can always come out for a spin in mine on sunday if your there smiles.....if you wanted to get an idea.
#111
If the goal is 350 x 350 then you can find this 'easy' with a 2 litre Sti.
If you are handy with the spanners and plasters for the fingers, you can get this level without taking the engine out or even the gearbox if the clutch is OK.
You would need to start with the Sti V3 or younger engine, and that will cost the same as the new 2.5 short engine (but the V3 would be complete and ready to go).
My Sti v3 is a real 380 x 360 and is an absolute delight on the road, very gutsy and easy to drive, especially in the wet where you can make some serious speed over many far more 'powerful' cars.
To the 2.5 bare block responses (thanks) how much for:
Bare block.
Sti crank and motorsport shells
Good rods (arrow?)
Forged 'drop-in' pistons
Gasket set to suit.
Personally (and I'm not rolling in $$$$) if you go through all this work it is best to build a solid short block if the dream is over 350 x 350.
My goal is 400 x 400 + with the need for quick spool, max boost low down and torque over power, and it must rev to 7500 min. where it will spend a lot of time hillclimbing.
John Stevenson might agree that 400 x400 ish is a great level, 500+ could be just too much for the chassis. I doubt my driver skills would cope with 500+ on a hillclimb, it even challenges John, so 400 x 400+ would be my ticket.
Hope this thread keeps going some yet.
Graham
If you are handy with the spanners and plasters for the fingers, you can get this level without taking the engine out or even the gearbox if the clutch is OK.
You would need to start with the Sti V3 or younger engine, and that will cost the same as the new 2.5 short engine (but the V3 would be complete and ready to go).
My Sti v3 is a real 380 x 360 and is an absolute delight on the road, very gutsy and easy to drive, especially in the wet where you can make some serious speed over many far more 'powerful' cars.
To the 2.5 bare block responses (thanks) how much for:
Bare block.
Sti crank and motorsport shells
Good rods (arrow?)
Forged 'drop-in' pistons
Gasket set to suit.
Personally (and I'm not rolling in $$$$) if you go through all this work it is best to build a solid short block if the dream is over 350 x 350.
My goal is 400 x 400 + with the need for quick spool, max boost low down and torque over power, and it must rev to 7500 min. where it will spend a lot of time hillclimbing.
John Stevenson might agree that 400 x400 ish is a great level, 500+ could be just too much for the chassis. I doubt my driver skills would cope with 500+ on a hillclimb, it even challenges John, so 400 x 400+ would be my ticket.
Hope this thread keeps going some yet.
Graham
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My vote would be a 2.5 for 350bhp, only because it's unstressed and there's a greater spread of power and torque (more so the torque) than the 2.0 over a wider span of rpm.
Des
I enjoy my car with what it has just now as well. It gives a hell of an adrenaline rush, you have the performance which annihilates every other car that decides it wants to "prove" something that you meet on the roads where you drive (unless you live next to AndyF! lol), but, and it's a pretty big but, you're never fully at ease with it cause there's too much to think about (and in such a short space of time)and too many risks which are not worth taking at this level.
At 350bhp, you have as much power as is useable for british roads, you can concentrate more on the driving than what might happen when you're out enjoying the car.
If you're saying to me for example that your car at the level it's at just now, you can drive it through tight bends with your foot flat to the floor as it's going up through the rev range through bends, then you've got either big *****, great talent, no brain or have the most sorted chassis / suspension set up to control the car. If that's the case, then hats off to you.
My car can't be floored as i go through fairly tight bends, it just comes back to bite you cause it's too easy to lose traction. Not good, saps your confidence and dulls the level of adrenaline.
At 350bhp, i can (and have) pushed harder and harder trying to find the cars (and my) limits. So much so, that it is easy to drive 100% of the time in all conditions, road surfaces and types of roads.
I've got to say though that on likes of A class country roads, dual carriageways or motorway type stuff, it's nicer to have full boost on tap, cause passing any possible obstruction or restriction in traffic up ahead is so much easier on the stress levels cause you know you can power yourself out of "trouble", so to speak.
Des
I enjoy my car with what it has just now as well. It gives a hell of an adrenaline rush, you have the performance which annihilates every other car that decides it wants to "prove" something that you meet on the roads where you drive (unless you live next to AndyF! lol), but, and it's a pretty big but, you're never fully at ease with it cause there's too much to think about (and in such a short space of time)and too many risks which are not worth taking at this level.
At 350bhp, you have as much power as is useable for british roads, you can concentrate more on the driving than what might happen when you're out enjoying the car.
If you're saying to me for example that your car at the level it's at just now, you can drive it through tight bends with your foot flat to the floor as it's going up through the rev range through bends, then you've got either big *****, great talent, no brain or have the most sorted chassis / suspension set up to control the car. If that's the case, then hats off to you.
My car can't be floored as i go through fairly tight bends, it just comes back to bite you cause it's too easy to lose traction. Not good, saps your confidence and dulls the level of adrenaline.
At 350bhp, i can (and have) pushed harder and harder trying to find the cars (and my) limits. So much so, that it is easy to drive 100% of the time in all conditions, road surfaces and types of roads.
I've got to say though that on likes of A class country roads, dual carriageways or motorway type stuff, it's nicer to have full boost on tap, cause passing any possible obstruction or restriction in traffic up ahead is so much easier on the stress levels cause you know you can power yourself out of "trouble", so to speak.
Last edited by AlanG; 11 November 2006 at 10:02 PM.
#113
At 350bhp, i can (and have) pushed harder and harder trying to find the cars (and my) limits. So much so, that it is easy to drive 100% of the time in all conditions, road surfaces and types of roads.
Totally correct imho
(and to add: Have some Serious FUN)
Totally correct imho
(and to add: Have some Serious FUN)
#114
Originally Posted by AlanG
you have the performance which annihilates every other car that decides it wants to "prove" something that you meet on the roads where you drive (unless you live next to AndyF! lol)
Originally Posted by AlanG
If you're saying to me for example that your car at the level it's at just now, you can drive it through tight bends with your foot flat to the floor as it's going up through the rev range through bends, then you've got either big *****, great talent, no brain or have the most sorted chassis / suspension set up to control the car. If that's the case, then hats off to you.
Originally Posted by AlanG
My car can't be floored as i go through fairly tight bends, it just comes back to bite you cause it's too easy to lose traction. Not good, saps your confidence and dulls the level of adrenaline.
Last edited by DesR; 13 November 2006 at 12:06 AM.
#116
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Actually... I almost do (live next to Andy).
I enjoyed the car immediately after the upgrade but got bored very quickly
I felt that was because it took that little bit longer to gain full confidence with each jump in acceleration levels as the power went up and i felt that i could handle that bit more, but it got to a point that i had so much acceleration, it soon become apparant that roads were very short (which weren't before) and bends became extremely tight (which weren't before..) and also traffic became much slower than i remember.. It also didn't help that greed took over as well when the car went beyond my capabilities.
The differences between your set up and mine i think are the key points which cause us to think differently on suitability.
I've experience of the GT30R with the 0.82 exhaust housing and now my GT35R. You have the GT30R with the 0.63 housing and my thoughts on what you have, concur with what you've said on here with it spooling up very quickly ( and hence being easy to drive) and having oodles of power to play with.
Mine is quite a bit different to what it was last year, in that it's still perfectly useable but there is a definite difference between off boost and on boost than before. It's more aimed towards the top end now than last year.
I took the car out yesterday to clear the cobwebs and although the weather was dry over here for some part of the day, it was cold and the road "looked" damp, certainly not bone dry. Even on the motorway as i headed towards some countryside, the car wouldn't accelerate without squirming and spinning its' wheels, and that's in 4th gear. I don't like full boonah in 5th much because it's a std gear, not a PPG gear (plus your way illegal... ahem). Because of that i need to do one of two things. Either turn the boost down to retain traction, or balance traction with throttle. And that's the bug. Having to continually balance traction with throttle is a pain because you can't always get the throttle (boost ) right for every situation, so after a while it becomes tedious.
I would say i chased the bhp through boredom, yes. That, and the natural curiosity of could i do it? along with the achievement of something i might otherwise have never done.
I don't think i would want more Des second time round, only because i have experience of the different levels over they years. My reasoning for 350/350 are fairly simple.
At 350/350 you have a choice of two unstressed engines if you like (in both 2 litre and 2.5litre) which can remain in std form i.e. std internals on both.
If you look at going for 400, although you can achieve this on std 2.0 internals, you are getting close to the point where uprated internals would give a greater safety margin or piece of mind at that power level. I feel it's fairly similar with the 2.5.
350bhp in a 2.0 or 2.5 litre are well within their comfort zone imo.
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(part of the reason I asked for your thoughts on the GT35R, as I think the GT30R is just about perfect),
John Bank's car is another example (though it's an Evo). he's done bugger all to it in terms of modifications, but appears to have an extremely powerful and quick car for minimal outlay. I haven't tried it, but it looks that way.
Last edited by AlanG; 13 November 2006 at 01:04 PM.
#118
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I'm running 2.5L with uprated internals, UK heads with STi inlet (so no butterfly parts) and she's kicking out 470 bhp mark. Power comes in quick from 2,500 (nowt below that though) and on full chat not much over 3,100 - I'd say she'd pull lower than that if it wasn't for my wild Piper 285 cams...
She reminds me of my old 2 stroke motor with the instant kick of power and hard to see rev needle as she dances around and yet in higher gears, she's more like the 900 4 stroke I had, lots and lots of usable torque.
As for revs, mine will produce power past 6,000 although she does drop off a little but that's because of the hybrid turbo, nothing else (the heads etc have been "worked" on and lary cams). To be honest, she drives just like I want her to, no need rev past 6,000 and so much acceleration its mental...if I do go over 6000 its because I wasn't quick enough to change gear and hit the red line!
Getting a EBC next so can control in gear boost...cant wait, although not sure how much I can turn it up over what I've already got (1.65 bar in 4th) as traction is always an issue!
Only thing I'd change over my 2.5L engine route is having the bores done with cast iron sleeves...my semi closed deck stops me going to power levels of 600 bhp - to go there now would mean another engine rebuild and another change of turbo - no thanks, spent way to much already...need spend on my poor house instead!
She reminds me of my old 2 stroke motor with the instant kick of power and hard to see rev needle as she dances around and yet in higher gears, she's more like the 900 4 stroke I had, lots and lots of usable torque.
As for revs, mine will produce power past 6,000 although she does drop off a little but that's because of the hybrid turbo, nothing else (the heads etc have been "worked" on and lary cams). To be honest, she drives just like I want her to, no need rev past 6,000 and so much acceleration its mental...if I do go over 6000 its because I wasn't quick enough to change gear and hit the red line!
Getting a EBC next so can control in gear boost...cant wait, although not sure how much I can turn it up over what I've already got (1.65 bar in 4th) as traction is always an issue!
Only thing I'd change over my 2.5L engine route is having the bores done with cast iron sleeves...my semi closed deck stops me going to power levels of 600 bhp - to go there now would mean another engine rebuild and another change of turbo - no thanks, spent way to much already...need spend on my poor house instead!
#119
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Power comes in quick from 2,500 (nowt below that though) and on full chat not much over 3,100
mine will produce power past 6,000 although she does drop off a little but that's because of the hybrid turbo
Maybe work on gaining at the top end and keeping low end as is? or is just that there's a wall of torque in mid range that top end feels flat in comparison?
Mines not really happy with full throttle (tho' it'll take it) 'til just under 2000rpm now, though it would take full throttle a good bit lower than this on the GT30R.
Last edited by AlanG; 13 November 2006 at 04:47 PM.
#120
Can't help feeling that to spend 'time' while driving to balance traction to accelleraton will cost time (if you were racing from A to B timed (sorry: have to say like a hillclimb track).
If 550 x 550 overwhelms (sp) the chassis, perhaps 450 x 450 does not (diff/tyres uprated), then the 450 car will (could)be overall quicker to B from A (assuming bendy bits in the track!)
This would be especially so in damp/wet conditions.
Several of us have said that a 350 x350 is very drivable but becomes a bit boring; 400 x 400 is rather nice, and 450 x450 'keeps us on our toes'.
Can 550+ become tedious at times, even dangerous?
Graham
If 550 x 550 overwhelms (sp) the chassis, perhaps 450 x 450 does not (diff/tyres uprated), then the 450 car will (could)be overall quicker to B from A (assuming bendy bits in the track!)
This would be especially so in damp/wet conditions.
Several of us have said that a 350 x350 is very drivable but becomes a bit boring; 400 x 400 is rather nice, and 450 x450 'keeps us on our toes'.
Can 550+ become tedious at times, even dangerous?
Graham