ex-webby

Hi All

My deepest apologies that I have not been able to read all of the posts on this thread, so please tell me if I've missed anything.

1)
The decision to delete a thread is NOT taken lightly

It has always been my BIGGEST hate. If a thread is ever deleted on scoobynet you can be absoutely sure that there was a very good reason for it. You should also be aware that it is not always possible or prudent to post the details of the reasons for this back up on public display, so we sometimes have to rely on your "between the lines reading" and post an broad explanation so that nobody feels that this was done for no reason.

2)
BRD are not and have never been (as far as I know) a sponsor or financial support of scoobynet so any hints / suggestions of mixed loyalty are unfounded. Even if they were a sponsor of this board, it would not have effected the decision to delete the thread. I would personally regret if that was ever suggested / thought.

3)
The thread in question contained potentially libellous content. It would be foolish for me to state exactly what that was, or even (at this stage) whether the content was unquestionably libellous rather than "potentially". Thanks to Shaun's work (which he puts in for free in his own time) in reading the thread carefully it was deemed that deleting the offending material on it's own would be far too distructive to the thread, so it was decided that it would be deleted and an explanation posted.

4)
Thank you very much to Shaun for acting on this, and thank you very much to the other moderators and the many people that reported the thread (using the "report to moderator" link) and emailed me personally. It is always a great display of the sense of importance we all place on the "good of scoobynet", etc.

Adam
A couple of things. Firstly, you asked if Shaun has moderating rights over all forums.

Since the launch of the new software we have been trialing a system where 2 moderators (JohnS and Shaun) have this ability.

The reason for this stem from suggestions from John Felstead and number of other moderators that it is not always possible to be in-front of the PC when the "proverbial" hits the "proverbial" . This has been a great success and will now become officially instated.

Why JohnS and Shaun?

JohnS has been "Admin" of scoobynet (which meant he had as much control over the BBS software as I ded) since long before I took over and has been a solid supporter for which I will always be grateful.

Shaun has an incredibly level head and almost 24 hour access to scoobynet. He has been incredibly supportive in the past and I trust him completely in a) his decisions, and b) his attitude towards scoobynet and love for the community. He will probably beat me up for saying that as he's quite hard as well!! but in all seriousness, I know he would never make a decision based on personal opinion and would never abuse the rights he has.

NOW... it is important to say that there are MANY people (moderator or not) that I have these qualities and I am proud (as I hope everyone is) to say that I genuinely believe we have the very best group of moderators that I have EVER come across. Everyone takes their resposability (and it IS a responsability to you and to scoobynet) very seriously, and always act on all of our best interests.

I will always be grateful to them, and respect them to the ends of the earth for the time, commitment and enthusiasm they put in. So should everyone.

Apologies for the long thread. If you're still with me, well done!!

Apologies for having to delete a thread. I truly hope you can see that it was a carefully planned and deliberated decision.

All the best

Simon

pwebb

No-one stepped in to protect David Power when he was taking a beating on this BBS - justified or not. That the guy is still on the scene is a credit to him as many others would have said 'F*** you then' and turned their back on the scooby community. If BRD can't stand up for themselves (and I am certain they could)then
its a crying shame.

As someone has said above - how times change - there are too many people with commercial interests active in the SIDC and on this BBS - I must say I preferred it when everything was open honest and sometimes a little 'out of order' - now we have to put up with the thought police everytime someone says something slightly controversial -

As for the threat of legal action - ha ha - I rather think people have better things to do with themselves/ better ways to spend their money.

fwiw,

Paul W

ex-webby

pwebb

Your world sounds like a wonderful place. If only the real world was that simple.

Do you think I personally want to delete threads that are controversial?

Do you know the ins and outs of the reason why scoobynet was closed down before I took over?

If you prefered things the way they were, you would probably not complain if scoobynet was closed down again (for good this time), but the mojority of the community would.

That is why I do not have the luxury of making decision based on what I personally want, I have to base them on what the majority of the community wants.

Regards

Simon

Spudgun GTR

youre right to do as you wish simon, but, surely its right that fellow scoobynetters hear ALL sides. people on this bbs spend a feckin fortune on mods every year. collectively, we must spend hundreds of thousands every year.
now, all these companies lick their lips at this, fair enough , if theyre good then they can have the business. but if they offer a poor service, then a kick up the backside doesnt do any harm now and then eh?

SecretAgentMan

The more I think about this the more I get confused.

1. A certain individual acting as a spokesperson for a certain company obviously has managed to **** of quite a lot of people.

2. Posts were made about this, and I think a few of us were surprised that we'd been mistreated the same way, by the same person.

3. The company in question should actually take this as constructive criticism (the said person in particular) and try to sort that little - but for some (myself included) VERY irritating - problem.

As I was unable to read the posts between 9 am and 5 pm today (buried in work) I cannot refer to what was written then...but if the thread was deleted because of the posts before 9 am today...I'd be very disappointed with the way this show is run.

Sincerely
/Jerry

[Edited by SecretAgentMan - 10/30/2001 8:02:21 PM]

ex-webby

Shaun has already stated this many times, but I will state it again.

There is NO PROBLEM with passing on experiences of companies. It is how it is done.

For instance..

I have personally been spoken to by Branco in a way that disgusted me more than I can ever recall in my life. I have had a few conversations with Bob Rawle and find him to be one of the most genuine and respectable people in the business.

However..

if I was to say "Company X is the worst company in the world", or "company X treats people worse than any other company" or "person Y is the rudest person in the world" that would be potentially libellous, and they are stated as facts that cannot be substantiated.

Taking those 3 statements again and wording them as follows changes that...

"In my opinion Company X is the worst company I have ever dealt with"
"Company X treated me worse than any other company I can recall treating me"
"Person Y spoke to me in a manner that I considered to be more rude than I can ever remember being spoken to"

It's a thin line, but it's also the law.

Tell me what I should do?

Should I just risk it and let scoobynet be closed down for good?
Or should I continue to act on the communities behalf and protect scoobynet from this?

There is NOTHING WRONG with telling people about bad experiences. We are NOT trying to protect anybody except scoobynet.

I really hope this is clear.

All the best

Simon

CraigH

One of the other big problems is the witch hunt which always seems to ensue. People who have no experience of the person/company involved, see a comment on it, can act without thinking, followed by another and all of a sudden you've got a huge snowball.

Now the thread would've gone from a constructive criticism to an all out slating from everyone and his dog.

That's not fair nor conducive to anything positive.

Adam M

Simon, surely a post such as your last will invite open criticism, yet with people mocking the system by putting "I THINK" in front of every derogatory statement.

Much as this may be legal, I can see such threads turning into a complete farse.

If this is the case then I am not looking forward to reading future opinions that will freely pop up all over the place.

I do think it is important to highlight in this situation that the complaints about branko were personal, and seemed in no way relevant to the posistion he holds at brd.

SecretAgentMan

If you are refferring to my posts with this, I completely disagree with you. Branko in fact WAS BRD for me when I contacted them. It had nothing to do with Branko as a private person.


If I'd make an **** out of myself at one of my customers (I usually don't so no **** taking ) - they would get irritated with the company I'm working for, not me personally....simple as that. This is the same thing.

/J

[Edited by SecretAgentMan - 10/31/2001 7:08:45 AM]

mutant_matt

Adam,
I have to disagree with you. The posts were mainly complaining about Branko's attitude/customer care skills which whilst are directed at him personally (as it's him they're talking about), they are directed at him because to most people who don't know Bob directly, he is the "face" of BRD. Therefore, it's extremely relevant to the position he holds at BRD.

If people think they have been treated badly by him, they are going to complain about him, are they not?

I stand by my last comment, I think any comments that were unacceptable should just have been edited out, and BRD invited to comment.

Matt.

Houlbt

I agree with the spy above.... I did not know who I was talking to when I phoned BRD to enquire about pushing large amounts of cash through their door. What I did know was that the treatment I recieved was totally unacceptable (in my opinion ) and I was so shocked that I did little to voice my outrage at the time. So far as I was concerned this was not a personal issue.....it was a potential business deal, lost for BRD by a BRD representative.

It was only toward the end of the call that I discovered the name of my most pleasant BRD rep on the other end of the phone. I like many have been unwilling to openly complain (until now) because I have my heart set on fitting a LINK ECU, know that Bob's work is regarded as top notch when it comes to this product..... and do not know of anywhere else in the UK to get this product reliably mapped.

I am relieved to find that I am not alone in my feelings wrt to BRD and my treatment by a representative of theirs.

GavinP

I find it interesting that some of the more vocal elements in this thread haven't ever spoken to BRD....

I particularly like "Not having dealt with them personally, I can't comment but, I have spoken to a large number of people who have and who did not have good things to say. "

I would like to meet this "large number" - as of yesterday, I had not heard ANY complaints about BRD. Yet amazingly, some people feel that they should comment when they have no experience of the said company.

Some of the cr@p that gets posted on here is shocking.....

Thanks

Gavin

[Edited by GavinP - 10/31/2001 8:52:55 AM]

R19KET

Simon,

I'm afraid that this is getting ri (implying they were disgusting)diculas. May be you should read some of your own comments !!!!!

How can you say it's ok to say that someone "disgusted you, the worst in your life" (implying they were being disgusting), but can't say they were the rudest ????

Surely saying "he is the rudest person I have ever spoken to",or "know one has ever spoken to me that way before", is not libel........

My comments in no way reflect any oppinions about the company concerned, just how, and what we can/can't say.

Mark.

gaz1049

Simon

I fully concur with your posts on this matter to date. I for one are extremely grateful for your efforts and those of your team. I apreciate the law is very grey on the issue of libel especially on BBS's. We are yet to see a genuine precedent case on this in the UK. One issue that makes it incredibly difficult and a point that many posting need to know is that as the world wide web is multi juridisdictional i.e. can be read in every country of the world, each has it's libel laws upon which Scoobynet can be prosecuted. It is not a satisfactory situation and one of the major legal headaches facing the Internet in my opinion.

Furthermore it should also be noted to this that this BBS is a published media and not only the author of the libellous statement can be found in breach of the tort of libel but also the editor, publisher, etc.

Simon your comments remind me of "Have I got news for you", in that they have a team of lawyers to vet that show and in all cases any potential libel is followed by "alledgely!". Maybe this is the solution......

Given that I would find it incredulous and unlikely that a judge would find in favour of a plaintiff seeking damages for libel from a bbs in whih people are blatantly expressing opinion even though they do not state it to be a personal opinion. If someone appeared to be authoritative on the issue therefor his opinion was deemed to carrying more weight to a reasonable man than a mere ordinary opinion then that is where the problem lies. Who is authoratitative and how can we tell who they are??

The burden of evidence would have to be weighted to demonstrate that defammation was intended and people reading it could recognise the source as being authoritative. Therefore your comments over careful use of language is the key and our first defense.

If scoobynet did publish such comments, damages could be sought against scoobynet if proper checks or controls to prevent such defammation we not satisfactorily. Hence if your moderators felt in anyway that potential libel was occurring they did the right thing..

...in my opinion

I disagree that the thread contained anything worthy of libel but hey I ain't the one in the hot seat so it is easy for me to challenge. Either way I hope I have added to the debate by using my limited law skills.


Gaz

Luke

Gaz

Jesus,what time do you get out of bed???? !!!!!

Very good information.

gaz1049

Luke

When the missus tells me she has had enough and wants to get some sleep now!!!!

Gaz

ex-webby

R19KET

You have COMPLETELY missed the point.

I don't know how I can make myself more clear.

I never said it was ok to say "disgusted", but no "rudest".

Please re-read my wording carefully.

This is all shades of grey, but...

saying "he is the rudest person I have ever spoken to" is far more dodgy than saying "he is the rudest person i can recall speaking to". As you may be asked to prove that every other person you have ever spoken to is less rude than him.

It would be better to say that "he spoke to me in a manner which offended me more than I can ever recall before", and you are simply stating your own perception, and that it offended you. You are not saying that he was offensive.

For goodness sake.

If you want to argue further about this, ask yourself this..

WHAT PLEASURE / BENEFIT WOULD I RECEIVE TO CLOSE THE THREAD?

Regards

simon

carl

We can accept it, but it doesn't mean we have to like it

Markus

Ok, I've not seen the thread that was deleted, but I would have liked to, just to see what was being said, having read/heard similar things I'm guessing that it was a personal attack on one of BRD's staff, and if so then shaun does have a valid point to delete the thread, as said, we all get on/don't get on with people. I might not like dealing with someone whilst others think the same person is akin to a god, it's life I'm afraid.

However, shaun, would it not be possible to leave the thread itselef and just edit the posts within the thread that have the dodgy content, thus the good/bad stuff and the thread would stay, but the personal attack bits would go?? guessing that this is a lotta work to do though?

I do spend a high percentage of time on scoobynet (maybe I should be a moderator? ) and as such usually read most posts, but, as with everyone else, i can't read them all, thus when I miss one, due to it's deletion I like to see what it was about, even if it's just from a curiousity veiwpoint, but sometimes it might have bearing on a purchasing decision.

anyway, just my thoughts, which aint worth nuttin'

Adam M

Gaz,

what limited legal skills do you have.
Normally I can spot a lawyer miles off, and you certainly write in the same style as every lawyer I have dealt with (lots).

Jerry, what I wrote was not directed at you specifically, but with memory of the original thread I can see how you would take it that way.

I hate the continued freedom of speach discussion that are likely to ensue. Gaz has said it already by reflecting Simons comments, and although it may seem stupid that the way we express something can define what is legally acceptable or not, that argument is not ours to have.

If you have a problem with the law and the loopholes, it is best taken up with the courts. Unfortunately crap like this is all over all legal systems. No system is perfect, but I can assure you ours is one of the best.

Luke

I am planning a demonstration !!!! Anyone who wants to Handcuff themselves to SDB this saturday at 9.30 am register now

EvilBevel

Gaz,

(sorry for going a bit of topic, maybe this needs to be in a new thread)

>>a point that many posting need to know is that as the world wide web is multi juridisdictional i.e. can be read in every country of the world

A very interesting point I feel ... is there any clarity whatsoever on how this would work exactly ? For example, let's assume it is illegal in Belgium to write the word "bum". Someone writes the word on Scoobynet ... would a Belgian court of law have any legal saying about a UK based company that owns the website, their ISP, or the companies that provide the cables etc... ?

Or would the party that seeks justice have to use the UK courts to get the matter settled ? And how exactly would that UK court know how the fine lines of the Belgian Bum Law ( ) read, what precedents there are, etc...

I'm asking, because the discussion about the wording is difficult enough as it is ... but that discussion probably reflects the UK legal system. Enter all other countries and I can see it's actually impossible to know what you can and what you can't write ?

Adam: maybe the discussion about "free speech" can be boring if it's just the usual toy-out-of-pram type, but I guess we can all learn from this how to protect ourselves & the BBS by avoiding obvious mistakes ?

Simon: one thought reflecting on what Markus said ... a feature of this BBS could be that - if you or the moderators feel a thread is potentially a legal issue - threads can be "quarantined", i.e. only readable by the people that posted on it. Instructions could then be given by email on how to edit the offending sections, so the thread can go "live" again. Boring & tedious, I know, but in this particular case it's probably just as much of a hassle trying to explain why you did what you did etc... Sometimes one comment is enough to invalidate a whole thread with arguments that people posted, put in their time ... a quarantine section would enable you to preserve those threads, educate people on what they might want to change, etc...

For example: this thread contains valuable information. It would only take one poster to say "but Shaun is a wanka" to make it a possible target for legal action, deletion, and I would then have typed all this for nuttin'

Theo

ptholt

Cor can we put this one to bed please? Nuff said surely.

One point i would like to make though, is just a little reminder to people that a lot of companies (including the one we are talking about here) does NOT work in our marketplace on a full time basis and its something they do outside of other work / life because they like the cars, the community, the people etc and its not totally profit related.

If such posts as the last few days had arrived at my door and the above was the case, i'd be seriously consider whether i would continue in future.

Blow Dog

ptholt,

Dont be ridiculous. I wish people would stop brushing crap under the carpet. If you had crap service at a restaraunt, you'd tell all your friends about it. What makes these companies different?

And I wish people would stop claiming that everyone does this all out of charity for the Subaru community. What a load of rubbish!

Cem

Adam M

I like the

"can we put this one to bed, but I want to have one last word!"

nice one pete, cool .

Agree with cem.

I dont know who really does anything in this community for the good of the people except those giving free advice.

Can someone please show me one company in this community that does what it does purely for the benefit of the community?

(The SIDC maybe an exception, but there are even more issues with that one).



[Edited by Adam M - 10/31/2001 11:44:44 AM]

Shaun

Markus,

Thanks for your comments.

"However, shaun, would it not be possible to leave the thread itselef and just edit the posts within the thread that have the dodgy content, thus the good/bad stuff and the thread would stay, but the personal attack bits would go?? guessing that this is a lotta work to do though?"

This was actually discussed at the time, but it was deemed unworkable as the ediiting of the contents would of left the thread unbalanced and unreadable. Also it was thought that the editting of this particular thread would of been more of an insult to the posters concerned.

Regards,
Shaun.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

Yet another well respected company slated by the minority.
I can think of several such companies that no longer post on this BBS.

Well done to that minority. Let's hope you never have to set up your own business, as you may see it go down the pan with your atitude.

So we will all have to get advice form the member's that think they 'know it all' and infact no 'f-all'. Instead of the people that work on Scoobies every day of the week.

ptholt

ahh thats obviously where we differ then cem, i'd take it up with the restaurant direct, tell them what the problem was and give them a chance to redeem themselves and hope they would knock something off the bill rather than perhaps burning my bridges.

Don't recall saying anything about doing it for charity either, just said that its not there sole and main work so may decide its really not worth continuing.

Danny Fisher

Its about time the party concerned showed face and posted about it.

Dan

bob

You are all complaining but maybe the person conserned has a medical problem. see below:

This bloke with Tourette's syndrome walks into the most exclusive restaurant in town.
'Where's the p*ss*ng motherf*king manager, you c*cksuking
ars*wipe?' he inquires of one of the waiters.
The waiter is taken-aback and replies, 'Excuse me sir but could you please refrain from using that sort of language in here. I will get the manager as soon as I can'.
The manager comes over and the bloke asks, 'Are you the
chicken-f*cking manager of this b*st*rd place?'
'Yes sir, I am,' replies the manager, 'but I would prefer it if you
could refrain from speaking such profanities in this, a private
restaurant'.
'F*ck off' replies the bloke 'and where's the f*cking piano?'
'Pardon?' says the manager.
'F*cking deaf as well, are we? You snivelling little piece of sh*t, show me your c*nting piano.'
'Ah,' replies the manager, 'you've come about the pianist job' and
shows the bloke to the piano. 'Can you play any blues?'
'Of course I f*cking can,' and the bloke proceeds to play the most
inspiring and beautiful sounding honky-tonk blues that the manager has ever heard.
'That's superb. What's it called?'
'I tried to sh*g yer missus on the sofa but the springs kept hurting my d*ck,' replies the bloke.
The manager is a bit disturbed and asks if the bloke knows any jazz. The bloke proceeds, playing the most melancholy jazz solo the manager has ever heard. 'Magnificent,' cries the manager. 'What's it called?'
'I Wanted a w*nk over the washing machine but I got my b*lls caught in the soap drawer'.
The manager is a tad embarrassed and asks if he knows any romantic ballads. The bloke then plays the most heartbreaking melody the
Manager has ever heard, 'And what's this called?' asks the manager.
'As I f*ck you under the stars with the moonlight shining off your
hairy ring-piece,' replies the bloke
The manager is highly upset by the bloke's language but offers him
The job on condition that he doesn't introduce any of his songs or talk to any of the customers. This arrangement works well for a couple of months until one night, sitting opposite him, is the most gorgeous blonde he has ever laid his eyes on.
She's wearing an almost see through dress, her breasts are almost
Falling out the top of her black lace bra, the skimpy little 'G' string she's wearing is doing very little to conceal her ample charms. She' sitting there with her legs slightly open, sucking suggestively on asparagus shoots as the butter is dripping down her chin. The image is too much for the bloke and he scurries off to the Gents to furiously **********.
He's tugging away furiously when he hears the manager's voice.
'Where's that b*st*rd pianist?'
He just has time to relieve himself, and in a fluster he runs back to the piano having not bothered to adjust himself properly, sits down and starts playing some more tunes.
The blonde steps up and walks over to the piano, leans over and
Whispers in his ear, 'Do you know your kn*b and b*ll*cks are hanging out your trousers and dripping sp*nk on your shoes?'
The bloke replies 'Know it? I f*cking wrote it.'

Ill get my coat!!!