turboman786

Typical scoobynet zenophobia on this post, very few of these posts display any real awareness of the ctual underlying issues to these riots, and many seem to be jumping on the 'ogh its those bloody foreigners at it again' which is a very shallow approach.......have a good read about french colonialism and especially the last 10 years of french meddling in algeria, and maybe you'll see things in a slighly different perspective...maybe...

GCollier

Absolutely spot on.

KiwiGTI

Don't know really. Liberalism doesn't work.

Zero-tolerance for violence/anti-social behaviour from anyone.
Ban organised religion (including the Catholic and Anglican churches), but not the freedom to worship who you want, so you can still buy bibles and korans etc
Implement a huge government funded infrastructure program that would create an era of zero unemployment. (National high speed rail network, restore some of Britains manufacturing industry, power stations etc)
Ban any further uncontrolled immigration (Same policy as Australia)
Compulsory military service for youth.
Make politicians accountable to public review boards.
Have more referendums
Make voting compulsory

That's a start.

KiwiGTI

I'm not making the link between that and a bunch of criminals destoying their own communities because they don't want to work for their money.

RedFive

Sounds a bit like the USSR, if not Europe between the 2 world wars ...

The only thing I would agree with is the infrastructure program. Keynes rules

OK, what would compulsory voting solve ? (trick question, mind you)

RedFive

One might conclude that the French government has been a bit of "racaille" themselves... Nobody who knows a bit of history would argue with that.

But.

It doesn't explain everything. There are many countries who have committed atrocities - especially in their (ex) colonies. However, not everyone is referring back to that most of the time.

I agree this is foremost a social problem. And as I noted before, not all rioters are muslims or Algerians.

BTW: do you know the French film "La Haine" ? (Hatred). Have a look at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/usercomments

What is happening is not new and has been going on since at least 1983. I do wonder what's wrong with Europe (as this can be found in other countries as well) that we don't seem to be able to react to those situations.

Drnaz_2000

Yeah ive noticed that too, most people seem to jump at the chance to attack immigration and immigrants are taking over the the country the first chance they get. Maybe some immigrants are working to help this country a better place, i know many arent, but these are the only ones you hear about. What i can say is that countries like the UK and France look after number 1 no matter what it takes. Their immigration policies are not them generally being 'nice' to poor, persecuted foreigners but to take advantage of what they can give to the country.

It works both ways and many immigrants acheive things they could never have achieved in their own countries. But please lets not always look at this from the perspective of the immigrants sponging off society. After all where would the UK be if there were no immigrants. (<<expecting a few smart comments from this)

KiwiGTI

Possibly stimulate some interest in the country and politics and act as a real barometer for what the public thinks.

Oh, and I've said/asked this before and I've never had an answer.

To all you liberalists/supporters/apologists of the immigrants behaviour and the people that accuse my opinions as being xenophobic, what is the solution to all these social problems as you all seem to know better?

Leslie

It is natural that there will always be people who want more and more power for themselves and their own society. I think we can expect that situation to arise as the immigrant population increases as it surely will. What is the fair answer to it though? The ***** went about controlling it in a way that no right thinking society would advocate. Without the proper controls in place in the first place this situation was always going to arise. Allowing mass uncontrolled immgration has done nothing to help. We can only hope that cooperation can be maintained between all those concerned and that all in this country will be prepared to work together for the common good. Enoch Powell's prediction seems to be close to the truth, for the French at least. We have to put effort into preventing that happening here with reasonable and fair behaviour.

Les

Petem95

This is getting really serious now, and seems to be escalating - surely cant be long until they have to call in the army?

Seems theyre really pissed off now by "reports that a police tear gas grenade had gone off near a mosque".

The violence seems to have spread to most parts of France now. I hope it doesnt start spreading into neighbouring countries. Belgium for example has a very large muslim immigrant population who are at unease with the Belgian population, so things could potentially kick off there too if they dont get things under control in France.

Brit_in_Japan

From what I've read it seems that high unemployment rates in "immigrant" area that is the biggest problem. They want to work but there are no jobs. Also there seems to be discrimination in the French workplace against non-white old-French, despite laws and government agencies which are supposed to ensure equal access.

The reason for the quotation marks around "immigrant" is because most of those disinfranchised young people were born in France, they speak French as a first language yet they find it's not a level playing field when it comes to getting jobs.

KiwiGTI

So destroying communities and causing more hatred will help then?

RedFive

Perhaps for them it will actually.

It has been confirmed again and again, also by politicians who usually go on about Islam, that this has 0% to do with religion.

These people are totally excluded from jobs (50% of the age upto 25 is unemployed), have no political saying, and are generally looked at as the scum of the nation. They are totally integrated most of the time, speak fluent French, and in many ways "love" France as their home country. The fact that that don't seem to be loved back explains a lot of what we are seeing on TV these days.

It was a disaster waiting to happen.

Oh, and the shops & factories that are being torched apparently are heavily subsidised by the government because they are implanted in those areas. Funnily enough, no one from the suburbs is employed there.

I am by no means saying I am pleased with those riots, as not much good can come from total anarchy & raw violence. I do hope someone can turn the violent protesting into political protesting ASAP. Torching disabled women is something no one can ever condone

RedFive

I can assure you, living in a country where voting is mandatory, that no such thing happens. On the contrary, people start voting for very extreme parties. Unless of course you believe that is is a good thing to have politicians who think Hitler wasn't such a bad guy after all...


Insulting question, as you seem to be implying that if you are not xenophobic, you want to apologize everything that goes wrong ??? Do you even realise there is some middle ground between your racist shouting and being a PC do- gooder treehugging namby pamby whatever ?

There are no fast and easy answers. What doesn't work is social exclusion. What does work is giving people the possibility to improve themselves. What might work is affirmative action. What might work is a few more people who think solidarity is not just stupid. What might work is less people like you (and many other middle class biggots on Scoobynet) linking everything to race and religion, and assuming everyone has the same chances. What might work is making sure people don't drop out of schools, and make them realize that just going to school until you're 18 is no longer enough in our economies. What does work is making sure these people get some political and social representation.

None of these answers are miracle solutions, a society is not something you build in a day.

KiwiGTI

No, still think they are scum and that poverty is just excuse.

The areas these people live are deprived and they have to cope with the fact that as soon as people hear their name and where they live, the job they are applying for suddenly becomes unavailable. Yes, there is a huge social problem, but it has existing for a long time.

These deprived areas have become communities and zones which the police and rest of French society rarely venture into. They are in effect lawless, run either by criminals or the local imams.

Sarkozy commenced a zero-tolerance approach to crime and the police started to go back into these areas and crack down on the criminals activites, this is what has triggered all of this on the scale it is now - almost totally stirred up by criminals (scum) who are unhappy that the police are moving in. (I read somewhere that it's a rite of passage for many of these youths to burn cars - average of 10 a night in Paris)

Drnaz_2000

I think sometimes people need to experience these situations to get an idea of why people do this. It totally wrong i agree but we can all go on about it as much as we like. What if we were put in these situations? what would we do? somehow i dont think much different. We are all human and will react accordingly to our environment.

KiwiGTI

What a bizarre statement that is, it's the middle classes that are the most tolerant, it's the upper and lower classes that are the most bigotted.

But mainly it's incredibly naive. You can't dehumanise people and I'm afraid that our race and religion are probably 2 of the most important aspects of our make-up. You are trying to apply Western psychology to everyone and for some stupid reason you think that are humans are equal and can live together in a utopian world where we all join hands and sing "It's a Small World"

Read a book by Richard D. Lewis called "When Cultures Collide" and this will give you the real world view of how people differ.

And can you really tell me that immigrants don't link everything to race and religion?

RedFive

Nope. Always have been middle class. In fact, even fascism started predominantly in middle class.

Sorry, having provided more facts to this thread than you, it is hardly your move to call me naive. I'm not.

Race doesn't exist. Didn't you follow science for the last 50 years ? Religion is a strong urge, but funnily enough it's the religious people who are trying to calm things down at the moment. You really don't seem to have a grip on this.

OK, you really aren't worth talking to. Try debating without the constant insults next time.

Read that, and it was crap to be honest. What's next ? Huntington ? Gimme a break, LOL.

Now you start reading Tariq Ramadan That should sent you up the roof for a few decades

Nope. There are biggots just like you on both sides.

KiwiGTI

Of course race exists. What's science got to do with that? Even a cursory look at a dictionary definition defines it as an ethnic group, a group of people sharing the same culture etc.

And when you include science then it becomes even more compelling, there are well defined genetic traits that races have, whether it's physical features or susceptibility to disease (sickle cell anaemia for example)


Hmm, one of the most widely respected books on international relations for executives working internationally is crap? That says a lot about you and that's not an insult it's reality.

AlfasudQV

Contrary to the 'Clarkson' view, the French do not generally mess around and hide from challenge. If you take two groups of French citizens. The Working class (you know the class that Thatcher declared war on) and the Unemployed impoverished. You will see that neither f*** around when they are unhappy. If you think that this disturbance is extreme and just the workshy getting unrestfull, consider the way that the working classes in France still organise and generally make their protest. France still has a working class (just) that believes in the notion of brotherhood and Sistership. The usual suspects of Western economics (market capitalism) create too much pressure on societies and France suffers the same greed and sickness that our society kneels to. Its a nice life when the sound of a 'Boxer' is something that floats your boat. For some people, the chance of a decent job (as opposed to a 4.50p/h slavery) and the ability to afford public transport is something that would definately float their boat. The French in recent history have shown that they will fight against the powers that so often fail. If it was not the immigrants, it would be the working class and then we would have a post moaning about Communist lefties. French society is as rotten as ours in many areas, but you could take an example that would make you all cry and whinge and that is the French health system. It is about the second best in the world. Reason... The French understand that it takes taxation of 36% to be no.2 instead of 25% to be a laughing stock in the world of health care.
The unemployed and immigrant French citizens are merely protesting with the vigour that the working class French have shown. As usual it is our (yes you as well ) greed that causes these problems.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

A lot of sense there, AlfasudQV

AsifScoob

From where did you pick up this particular fact please? Please dont tell me you read it in the Daily Mail? I know quite a few Muslim people and not one of them has 'insisted' that their employer bend over backwards for them, not to the slightest extent.

Your second 'fact' is also way off the mark. Look at the numbers of Muslim immigrants, vs say Hindu and Sikh immigrants, there are way more. Lots of the Hindu's and Sikhs will be more business orientated, because they came from places like East Africa, they will therefore have higher average earnings and good luck to them.

Large numbers of the Muslim immigrants will be doing lower paid work, or are probably more likely to have come here seeking Asylum than other South Asians. Again, therefore lower paid.

As for your final point, again, way off the mark. When large scale Asian immigration started in this country there was no benefits for people and even if there were people of my Fathers generation were too proud to claim them. He came here as an 18 year old and never claimed dole or other benefits in his life and he was typical of Asians coming here.

Before people start moaning I have NO issue whatsoever if you want to make a fact based complaint about an immigrant or immigrants. However, when you start to make sweeping generalisations based upon the worst aspects you observe, that will get my back up - always.

So stick to the facts Pete and stop stirring.

Asif

Brit_in_Japan

I've been doing more reading up recently of the underlying reasons behind the current problems. There is a suggestion that the violence is more than just a protest about the lack of jobs. That was the underlying reason behind similar (though smaller scale) riots 10+ years ago. However the failure to address the problem properly then has lead to greater despondancy now amongst the current non-white generation of French youth. Whilst providing more jobs might be part of the solution, a more difficult task is to try and convince the disenfranchised that they live in a country which does want them and which will treat them equally, not just on paper (there are plently of laws in France which should ensure equality) but in real life.

If you have seen the "Have your say" comments on the BBC news website it's interesting the pretty clear divisions there are with trying to stop the current violence. The posts from US people typically are "bring the army in, stamp down on them", whilst from Europe there is a more concilatory approach which urges dialogue, try to get to the root of the problem rather than just use the heavy handed approach.

It will be interesting to see which way the French govt will go. The heavy handed approach may work in the short term, but doesn't address the underlying problems.

Alan C

You can argue to the Nth degree about the nuances and macro issues but it really is very simple.

Be it the White West or Asian East, people from such different cultures will never be able to operate fully at the same level in the opposite society. Of course there'll be limited number of people and companies that buck the trend, but coming with a different skin colour, language and culture will make you different.

You will feel different, you will look different, you will act different and you will sound different..

The operative word here is different.

This small word will put you (White in the East, Asian or Black in the West) at a disadvantage and you will need to overcome the prejudice and crass behaviour that forces you into a 'pigeon hole' or category........

If you buck this trend and genuinely integrate (remember I'm talking both ways)... even to the small things such as supporting the national team, dressing the same way, listening to the same music etc.. then your job is made much easier...

Dress different, support the non-national team, listen to non local music and be at odds with the local 'ways' (to whatever degree) then you will make your job harder and you only have yourself to blame.. not the local populace..

I'm not saying that this is perfect... or the way it should be.. I'm saying that that's the way it is.. and will be until the WHOLE WORLD get their head around these differences..

I won't hold my breath...

Reality

I've lived in Scotland for the last 16 years and if you think I'm gonna start supporting the national team or start talking like I'm gargling with turps you can think again .

But all your other points are valid .

Alan C

I was going to mention the Scots... Now there's a group of people who are more Anti English than any group I know. How many Scots are complaining of unfair bias whereby they can't get a job or are treated unfairly because of their accent only?

(in this serious context of course )

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

None..........they all work for the BBC, where a Scots accent is deemed not only acceptable, but desirable, honest, hard-working etc.

Ditto, Geordies, Scousers, Cockneys etc (all likeable "laddish" accents).

Now ask how many Brummies get jobs there? Or South Yorkshire folk? Mancs? Norfolk people? VERY few, because SOMEONE doesn't like THEIR accents.

It's all a type of segregation, and it goes on under our noses.

Alcazar