stu_5

Yes

After ohh, 30 seconds. -Thats the point of the procedure your doing.

Glad to see you know the subject so well in relation to the car, and have obviously paid attention to the discussions previously to form your opinion....

highlander68k

Does David do psychological evalutions in his spare time?

Funny as hell that list. I would add that that lot is standard practice at all vehicle main dealers and not just Subaru.

pslewis

Thats good enough for me then!!

Its official ..... 'The **** Oil Change Procedure' has been thrown into the bin marked BOLLOX!!

Pete

Let the Old Women do what they want - the 'normal and sane' proceed as all other cars ................. its an engine and as far as Oil Changing is concerned, its the same as its always been!!

GREEN SCOOBY

Your a card Pete! A wild one! A joker

How about a book printed on all of Petes posts and replys?

Its got to be a best seller!

10,000 plus posts!

It could be called!
















































































How to be a knobber and still have friends!

Matt P

I really hope, for your sake Pete, that your engine doesn't go west 'cos if it does I don't think you're going to find much support on SN...

Dunk

iTrader: (1)

That oil change process is doomed to fail - you left out wearing lucky green pants with Heather sticking out of them.

D

pslewis

Lets look at this from a logical point of view shall we?

You stop your car in the evening and the oil drains into the sump, except for some in oilways and filter .... an oil film remains on all the moving parts (it does NOT fall off these areas over a few hours)

You wake in the morning and its -10C ...... do you just get on with it and start the engine? or do you disconnect the crank sensor and all that oil change bollox?

No, I don't believe you do - you start the car and the engine doesn't blow up!

Now, lets take the oil change:-

You stop the car, engine nice and hot, and you remove the Sump Plug - ONLY the oil that would have ended up in the Sump anyway pours out. There remains oil in oilways and filter .... an oil film remains on all the moving parts (it does NOT fall off these areas over a few minutes)

The Filter is removed - BUT THE NEW ONE IS FILLED PRIOR TO FITTING - oil is poured into the top part of the engine and sinks into the Sump.

To my mind, that Oil Change puts the Engine in EXACTLY the same position as it sits in when you start in the morning, so whats wrong with just starting it as you do in the mornings??

I would REALLY like an Engineering explaination for the farting about '**** Oil Change starting procedure' as I think its just complete and utter bollox.

Pete

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Is that Heather Mills McCartney or Heather xxxxxx that used be in that US soap. It needs to done right to get a correct reaction.

David APi Engines / APi Impreza
www.apiengines.com

pslewis

David ..... you should be able to offer an Engineering reason for the 'Fart about **** Oil Change Starting Procedure'?

I am an Engineer of many decades and just cannot see what the problem is with doing the Oil Change the same as every other car?

After an Engine Re-Build .... where the oild film has been removed from the internal moving parts - YES, I would definately agree that an anally careful approach should be adopted.

But, come on, after a simple oil change, where the Engine sits in the state it does EVERY morning??

Very interested in an explaination

Pete

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

EXCEPT THAT ! The oil will drain down out of the pick-up pipe in the oil change scenario which it doesn't do with the sump full when you park overnight.

In the oil change situation it takes time to draw oil back into the pick-up pipe and then into the pump and then into the oil galleries. OK, only a short time , but cumulatively the engine will have spun for quite a length of time over the course of - say 75000 miles worth of services, whilst building pressure.

Our ADVICE is exactly that. Doing the '****' oil change will always protect an engine - any other will not.

You choose the gun and the bullets, lets play Russsian roullette, your way or my way?

David APi Engines / APi Impreza
www.apiengines.com

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

ALSO remember that, Oil itself will not support the weight of the rotating parts. It is oil UNDER PRESSURE that creates a usable film that stops metal to metal contact.

Cranking speed is about 6 revs a SECOND the oil film, unpressurised, is not helping at all in that situation.

David APi Engines / APi Impreza
www.apiengines.com

Dark Blue Mark

Pete, why get bothered if its the dealer doing it? Leave it to them

I appreciate what you're saying, some people treat the car like its an F1 racing machine - but the way David describes is what's called "best practice" Im sure you know that ayway...

MB

pslewis

OK, so - the **** way of cranking without engine running is actually knackering the engine then??

Oil supports rotating parts quite adequately WITHOUT pressure ..... certainly in the 2 seconds it takes the pressure to build up again.

Sorry, holes all over your reasons I'm afraid ............. the oil pick-up pipe is interesting, what will happen of course is that the pipe WILL drain to the level of the oil in the sump (come on, you are clutching at straws with that one!)

Pete

pslewis

I am changing the Oil and Filter

and I think you will find that some "Best Practise" is complete and utter nonesense ..................

'Best Practise' for who? The 'Specialist' who claims an extra 1 hour to do the '**** Oil Change'??

Pete

Moray

Just start the engine and hold it at 5000 rpm. That will get the pressure built up nicely

Pavlo

I have always changed the oil by priming the engine with cam/crank sensor disconnected, with a new oil pump it can take a minute of cold cranking, so plugs out too in that case.

When I stripped my 500+hp engine that had an inlet valve snap, the bearings and oil pressure are fine after 10,000 miles of driving including 6 days of drag racing a trip to the Nurburgring and numerous mapping sessions. It's had enough abuse to do 2 sets of head gaskets in that time, but the bearings are fine.

You pays yer money, you takes yer choice.

Paul

Dunk

iTrader: (1)

I did hear Paul McCartney had bought her a plane for her birthday to shave her leg with.

D

GC8

Pete; be told for f*ck's sake!

One point that David didnt mention I believe, and as an engineer you should understand this is..... A horizontally opposed engine is extremely compact, the downside of this is that the bearing surfaces on the crankshaft are relatively narrow, the surface area appears to be little over half that of a standard crankshaft. If youve ever seen an EJ20 crankshaft, and youre going the right way to see your own at this rate, then you will appreciate how small the bearing surfaces are, and how fragile it actually looks. When the bearing surface is small as this is, the bearing lining is less able to deal with the rigours of a dry start (dry due to the oil pick-up having emptied).

I await your dismissive reply


Regards

Simon

pslewis

I beg your pardon young man!!!???

I will NOT be 'told' anything from you, thanks all the same - you frigging 'Keyboard Warrior'

Thats the pleasantries out the way ........ lets get down to business:-

I really want to know why the Subaru Main Dealers and Subaru Warranty Department do NOT demand that a Special Start-Up procedure be used after an Oil Change .......... its simply not good enough to say, "Subaru and Main Dealers don't know diddly about these Engines, but 'WE' do!"

I can GUARANTEE you that Subaru Warranty would be laying down the '**** Oil Change' Rules to Dealers pretty damned fast if Engines were blowing left, right and centre after a simple service!!

I take the point that the crank is small, maybe light, and the bearings are consequently small ............ but, as an Engineer I can state quite clearly that Oil does NOT drain away from these bearing, leaving them 'dry'!!!

I had a 1961 Evinrude Outboard Engine a couple of years ago and I had to do some work on the lower leg containing the gearbox - the lower leg oil had been replaced regular by me .... not sure about oil changes for the 30 years prior to my ownership .... getting to the point here:-

I had a god awful job trying to get one of the sleeves off the main shaft, it was stuck solid ......... was it glued? was it siezed? NO! The film of oil was so powerful that it was stuck fast!! (it would rotate absolutely fine)

Taking that example and my many years of Engineering Experience tells me that over the 20 minutes it takes for the Oil Change - the bearings are FAR from being 'dry' or in any danger of damage in the 2 seconds it takes to get pressure up!

I have no problem with people going through some percieved ritual because they believe that if they don't their engine will blow up .........

..... remember, these are the same people who don't walk over the cracks in the pavement because it means that their lungs will implode resulting in their immediate death!!!

They are quite simply ....... MAF!!!
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F oooook!!

I suppose with 48,000 members we will be visited by the '****' in quite high numbers?

Regards

Pete

GC8

Whilst I agree with you that its unlikely that dealers follow this procedure; Im aware of a case where IM refused a warranty claim for an engine failure, after the dealer in question subbed the oil service out to a third party. The reason was that the correct oil change procedure hadnt been followed; it was posted here I believe.

I will take your 'keyboard warrior' remark as a compliment from you; King of keyboard heroes!


Regards

Simon

GC8

With regard to 'oil draining away'; I dont think that theres any suggestion that this is the case or indeed, the issue. The problem is caused by the engine being cranked under compression, and therefore greater with a greater load on the bearing surface, whilst the oil pump has to prime itself having first filled the pick-up pipe. This is compounded by the narrower journals on the EJ20's crankshaft and the consequental higher surface loading.

I read this during my tea break at the library

pslewis

OK, now you aren't going to tell me that the Oil Change Procedure recomended by Subaru is the '****' procedure ........... are you???

I would need evidence of that .... anyone got a Subaru workshop manual??

I am open to having my mind changed .....

Oh, yes, you can take my 'Keyboard Warrior' remark and shove it wherever you wish!!

Pete

chiark

PSL - 15, GC8 - 40.

PSL to serve. GC8 has two break points...

pslewis

And removing the Crank Sensor removes the Compression does it???

Go back to the library and read that book again ....

Or are you suggesting that the spark plugs need to come out too!!

Pete

pslewis

The Oil Pump upon an Oil Change is in exactly the same condition as it is in whenever you come to start the car normally!! It cannot be any less primed as it is when left overnight on the drive!!

Pete

GC8

It doesnt remove the compression no; but as an expert on the '**** Method' you know that removing the plugs is favoured. Removing the sensor is an easier option that prevents ignition and the far greater force thats associated with it.

The unfortunate fellow who IM tried to have over didnt say whether they quoted the full '**** Method' or not, only that they tried to reject the claim because a 3rd party was used and they didnt follow the correct procedure.

We will have TelBoy contributing to this thread shorty as Im sure that "**** Method" will come back in his evenings Googling!


Simon

Edited to add: With regard to the pick-up pipe, you may be right, Id accepted this as the person who told me knew more than me and I can be told!

Bob Rawle

Actually it can Pete, the modine empties partly when the filter is removed, so the pump has to suck that amount of oil back up before whats on top (which stays put as you state, can be moved on. Whats above the pump and in the gallery's doen't drain of course as the pump is a gear pump which is an effective restriction to prevent that.

Interesting thread, fors and againsts are level as far as I can see. Routine oil changing is a totally different kettle to new engine first time start but if we are just relating this to routine oil changes then even's.

Bob

pslewis

Thanks Bob - I am willing to be convinced that the '**** Oil Change Method' is absolutely required to stop your engine failing pre-maturely.

I am a bit more street wise than your average punter and simply cannot see how the engine will be terminally damaged if its just started after an Oil Change!?

Its so clear to me that the Oil situation inside an Engine just after an Oil Change with a FULL Oil Filter and full sump is VERY little different than the state of the Engine in the morning after a night of standing on the drive ............................. it simply CANNOT be any other way??

Therefore, removing Plugs and Crank Sensor is an utter waste of time for those who don't believe in magic!? Like I said, only the crack-in-the-pavement brigade feel the need to do it .... some ritual in their mind?

Pete

Shark Man

To throw a little little extra thoughts into the so called "****" method with the EJ20 and its associated small big end/main bearings getting damaged upon starting after a oil change.

What about Impreza GLs, Sports, Legacys, Forresters? Both Turbo and n/a? The theory goes that the non-turbo varients of the EJ20 are equally susceptable.

Perhaps we should ask some of the guys on:www.subaruhighmileageclub.com/

pslewis

I have tried and tried to find something, anything, about the Oil Change Procedure on the Internet ................... NOTHING!!

Googled it, ASK Jeeves, etc. etc. NOTHING!!

Now, I cannot figure this out ...... if Subaru's were being destroyed, day in, day out, due to incorrect Oil Changes, I would have thought that somewhere, someone, in the WORLD would have posted an article about it??

NOTHING!!

Pete