Tracking system, which and why?
04 September 2000, 06:58 PM
#31
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Hey people, Im sure a few of you are missing the point here?
Any system is only as strong as its weakest link, and in the case of GPS systems, YES its accurate BUT it uses GSM to tell the control centres that information.
And we all know how reliable our mobile phones are ......
Any system is only as strong as its weakest link, and in the case of GPS systems, YES its accurate BUT it uses GSM to tell the control centres that information.
And we all know how reliable our mobile phones are ......
04 September 2000, 10:26 PM
#32
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And another thing...... 
GPS is only mega-accurate if you give it a minute or two to get a really good fix and that is now with the selective degrading switched off.
Work has a very expensive (10s of K) GPS receiver for some of our equipment that can now (on average) fix the kit down to about 8m, but this needs about 3 minutes of fixes to get there. This is the same with most receivers, i.e. the longer time the unit is held still the greater the accuracy as it waits for the sats. to send out their next pulse.
This can still be improved further by the use of the ground base stations and this can bring the fix down to about 1.5m.
This is all great.
Downsides I can see, is that the car fitted with a GPS based system that has been stolen is likely to be shifting and hence the fix it is going to get on itself isn't going to be very good. I wouldn't like to estimate a figure but I bet it will be well into the 100's of metres.
Combine this with the GSM signal (for uplink) to the controller dropping out under bridges, tunnels, multistory car parks etc. Wouldn't work in my road if on Orange (only place in the world my mobile doesn't work)
Add to that the additional delay as the controller then passes on the current "fix" to the police officer in the chase car and you could be well looking at a reported position being over 1 km away from where the actual car is.
As far as I can tell, there is no published info. on what equipment is actually contained within these systems (for obvious reasons). Could have an inertial-nav backup etc. for all we know.
I guess the upshot is, you buy what makes you feel safe.
Just some thoughts...
Maybe Stuart has been involved in a chase with a car with a GPS based system fitted. Any comments ?
Cheers
Ian
[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 04 September 2000).]
GPS is only mega-accurate if you give it a minute or two to get a really good fix and that is now with the selective degrading switched off.
Work has a very expensive (10s of K) GPS receiver for some of our equipment that can now (on average) fix the kit down to about 8m, but this needs about 3 minutes of fixes to get there. This is the same with most receivers, i.e. the longer time the unit is held still the greater the accuracy as it waits for the sats. to send out their next pulse.
This can still be improved further by the use of the ground base stations and this can bring the fix down to about 1.5m.
This is all great.
Downsides I can see, is that the car fitted with a GPS based system that has been stolen is likely to be shifting and hence the fix it is going to get on itself isn't going to be very good. I wouldn't like to estimate a figure but I bet it will be well into the 100's of metres.
Combine this with the GSM signal (for uplink) to the controller dropping out under bridges, tunnels, multistory car parks etc. Wouldn't work in my road if on Orange (only place in the world my mobile doesn't work)
Add to that the additional delay as the controller then passes on the current "fix" to the police officer in the chase car and you could be well looking at a reported position being over 1 km away from where the actual car is.
As far as I can tell, there is no published info. on what equipment is actually contained within these systems (for obvious reasons). Could have an inertial-nav backup etc. for all we know.
I guess the upshot is, you buy what makes you feel safe.
Just some thoughts...
Maybe Stuart has been involved in a chase with a car with a GPS based system fitted. Any comments ?
Cheers
Ian
[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 04 September 2000).]
04 September 2000, 10:40 PM
#33
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Pursuits involving vehicles fitted with GPS tracker devices are a nightmare. In my case the control room are contacted with details of the vehicle and its location, bear in mind the person who is taking the call could be on a different floor to the person I am talking to on the radio. The person taking the call then has to type it onto our computer system and send it to the radio controller who will pass it to me.
Picture this: You are driving a car at speeds in excess of the speed limit on a road you don't know, all the time following a vehicle you know has a sh*tbag in. You have to concentrate on driving as well as listening to your crew partner, the control room giving directions from the GPS, the helicopter and anyone else who happens to be on the same radio channel. All this while doing stupid speeds, usually in built-up areas. I'm sorry but give me TRACKER any day!
In summary: Because of TRACKER having receivers in our cars, I am more likely to be able to concentrate on driving safely at speed to safely contain the ****** using TPAC or Stinger because I only have to rely on something glued to my dashboard, not 5 different people and a computer system (I'm still looking for the 'Any' key when it comes to computers!!) all playing chinese whispers with each other!
Go for TRACKER.
(I should add that I am in no way connected with TRACKER and the advice offered(sp?) is only gained through experience of chasing little thieving ******* in cars fitted with the TRACKER system)
[This message has been edited by Stuart H (edited 05 September 2000).]
Picture this: You are driving a car at speeds in excess of the speed limit on a road you don't know, all the time following a vehicle you know has a sh*tbag in. You have to concentrate on driving as well as listening to your crew partner, the control room giving directions from the GPS, the helicopter and anyone else who happens to be on the same radio channel. All this while doing stupid speeds, usually in built-up areas. I'm sorry but give me TRACKER any day!
In summary: Because of TRACKER having receivers in our cars, I am more likely to be able to concentrate on driving safely at speed to safely contain the ****** using TPAC or Stinger because I only have to rely on something glued to my dashboard, not 5 different people and a computer system (I'm still looking for the 'Any' key when it comes to computers!!) all playing chinese whispers with each other!
Go for TRACKER.
(I should add that I am in no way connected with TRACKER and the advice offered(sp?) is only gained through experience of chasing little thieving ******* in cars fitted with the TRACKER system)
[This message has been edited by Stuart H (edited 05 September 2000).]
04 September 2000, 10:56 PM
#34
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Phew, back again!!
GPS tracking systems, they are not constantly transmitting, they transmit the location in brief spells, ie 2 sec bursts, this way it misses out most things like bridges, it is more accurate than tracker, its not affected by radio waves bouncing off buildings as most ground based radio is, it doesnt degrade like most ground based radio does, it may be deemed to be "less affective by some" but at the end of the day, all it takes is a 5 second phone call saying, look the car is here, go get it... it is a better system, it also has FULL UK COVERAGE!!!! tracker doesnt, its not affected by weather either!!
But at the end of the day, if you want to buy something that is out of date, aint been upgraded since it was brought in to service then buy tracker, yes its tried and tested but as we say in my industry "why buy analog when you can have digital!!!"
Any of you who have analog cordless phones in the house will understand that!!
Thank you!!
GPS tracking systems, they are not constantly transmitting, they transmit the location in brief spells, ie 2 sec bursts, this way it misses out most things like bridges, it is more accurate than tracker, its not affected by radio waves bouncing off buildings as most ground based radio is, it doesnt degrade like most ground based radio does, it may be deemed to be "less affective by some" but at the end of the day, all it takes is a 5 second phone call saying, look the car is here, go get it... it is a better system, it also has FULL UK COVERAGE!!!! tracker doesnt, its not affected by weather either!!
But at the end of the day, if you want to buy something that is out of date, aint been upgraded since it was brought in to service then buy tracker, yes its tried and tested but as we say in my industry "why buy analog when you can have digital!!!"
Any of you who have analog cordless phones in the house will understand that!!
Thank you!!
04 September 2000, 11:45 PM
#35
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Tony,
You say it has full UK coverage, but surely if it is using GSM tech. to transmit its position then that statement isn't true ? Or do you know something about the transmission of position you are not telling us ?
Cheers
Ian
You say it has full UK coverage, but surely if it is using GSM tech. to transmit its position then that statement isn't true ? Or do you know something about the transmission of position you are not telling us ?
Cheers
Ian
05 September 2000, 02:01 PM
#36
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A friend guided me to this bulletin board regarding the tracking devices debate.
As Marketing Manager for TRACKER, I have a biased view but wanted to offer some input..
TRACKER uses land based radio transmission (successfully used in USA for over 15 years)whereas a few emerging competing systems use GPS/GSM (sattelite and mobile phone technologies combined).
Thieves are by definition devious and will try to conceal vehicles as soon as possible.
With the police operating our system, we regularly find vehicles in garages, lock-ups, and even shipping containers (performance cars like Scoobys included!).
Satellite is only truly effective if the vehicle is in line of sight with a minimum of three satellites (our experience says this is frequently not the case in a stolen vehicle situation).
Info on TRACKER including prices on our website
As Marketing Manager for TRACKER, I have a biased view but wanted to offer some input..
TRACKER uses land based radio transmission (successfully used in USA for over 15 years)whereas a few emerging competing systems use GPS/GSM (sattelite and mobile phone technologies combined).
Thieves are by definition devious and will try to conceal vehicles as soon as possible.
With the police operating our system, we regularly find vehicles in garages, lock-ups, and even shipping containers (performance cars like Scoobys included!).
Satellite is only truly effective if the vehicle is in line of sight with a minimum of three satellites (our experience says this is frequently not the case in a stolen vehicle situation).
Info on TRACKER including prices on our website
05 September 2000, 02:25 PM
#37
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I'm a scooby owner, and my dad is a Copper. Thus he tells me lots of interesting tales. He's also warned me about being followed home, to note number plates, etc, etc. (I'm even going to mount my vid-camera rear facing in the car - Fun, if nothing else!!).
Anyway - He spends half his time chasing ******* having stolen scoobies, skylines, etc...Most gangs roam around in stolen cars looking for likely targets.
He swears by TRACKER, with good recovery rates on equipped cars.
Trouble is, there's only about 3 different spots on the scoob used to locate the gubbins. All the Tea-Leaves are getting wise...
However, TRACKER is cheap compared to most!
[This message has been edited by Squizz (edited 05 September 2000).]
Anyway - He spends half his time chasing ******* having stolen scoobies, skylines, etc...Most gangs roam around in stolen cars looking for likely targets.
He swears by TRACKER, with good recovery rates on equipped cars.
Trouble is, there's only about 3 different spots on the scoob used to locate the gubbins. All the Tea-Leaves are getting wise...
However, TRACKER is cheap compared to most!
[This message has been edited by Squizz (edited 05 September 2000).]
05 September 2000, 10:12 PM
#38
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Hi IW,
Basically, the technology used is the same as in a hand held gps units, will pick up 3 satalites and triangulate, there are more than 3 satalites covering uk/europe, it takes 3 to cover the entire world, 9 to triangulate anywhere in the world, 16 added to make the 25 military satalite network up.
you will always be able to pick up 3, no matter where you are in the world.... even if you cant get a Global switching for mobiles (gsm) signal.
As you know, the hand held sets work on triangulation... gsm coverage is now actually better than you think, better in fact than tracker!! (and expanding very quickly too!!)
Alot of people say tracker is the best, can be picked up in a multi story car park, have you ever tried using your phone in there???
Both will suffer the same fate, but you wont get any satalite black spots. GPS works in the same manner as any system except its definately a digital system (signal degridation is vertually zero). Your car will always be in a footprint area from the sky...
at the end of the day, ive opted for the GPS system because ive used satalite equipment, including inmarsat terminals (50 dollars a min is a bit on the expensive side thou!!)
I have also used satalite equipment in hostile enviroments and know its pro's and cons (was in the army, served in some really nice places in bosnia....!!) i am now a telecomms engineer putting GSM and static switches in for companies around the UK and have seen how quickly the equipment is changing, gps systems can adapt to that, Tracker have to replace there entire network, and have they?? no..... its very out of date technology.. its like using semifore when you have a telephone!!
This is just my opinion, at the end of the day, as long as you get your car back, which is basically what you want (if a professional nicks it anyway) then your money is well spent
[This message has been edited by TonyBurns (edited 05 September 2000).]
Basically, the technology used is the same as in a hand held gps units, will pick up 3 satalites and triangulate, there are more than 3 satalites covering uk/europe, it takes 3 to cover the entire world, 9 to triangulate anywhere in the world, 16 added to make the 25 military satalite network up.
you will always be able to pick up 3, no matter where you are in the world.... even if you cant get a Global switching for mobiles (gsm) signal.
As you know, the hand held sets work on triangulation... gsm coverage is now actually better than you think, better in fact than tracker!! (and expanding very quickly too!!)
Alot of people say tracker is the best, can be picked up in a multi story car park, have you ever tried using your phone in there???
Both will suffer the same fate, but you wont get any satalite black spots. GPS works in the same manner as any system except its definately a digital system (signal degridation is vertually zero). Your car will always be in a footprint area from the sky...
at the end of the day, ive opted for the GPS system because ive used satalite equipment, including inmarsat terminals (50 dollars a min is a bit on the expensive side thou!!)
I have also used satalite equipment in hostile enviroments and know its pro's and cons (was in the army, served in some really nice places in bosnia....!!) i am now a telecomms engineer putting GSM and static switches in for companies around the UK and have seen how quickly the equipment is changing, gps systems can adapt to that, Tracker have to replace there entire network, and have they?? no..... its very out of date technology.. its like using semifore when you have a telephone!!
This is just my opinion, at the end of the day, as long as you get your car back, which is basically what you want (if a professional nicks it anyway) then your money is well spent
[This message has been edited by TonyBurns (edited 05 September 2000).]
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