Warning to all 05 STI owners..be careful!!!!
14 February 2005, 04:10 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by ARRON BIRD
I was showing my brother how easy they slide around a rounabout.
I remember being in full rear mode turned in and floored as usual the back came out and as I accelerated as usual it grabbed back over towards the rh kerb then slapped back to the left.
It was a close call.
It happened the other day again round a roundabout but in auto but didnt grab quite as much.
It has only happened the two times and I have no idea why.
Mike you must have experienced this sometime any ideas??
Over to Mr Wood.............
PS Mike are you down this Sat or busy??
I remember being in full rear mode turned in and floored as usual the back came out and as I accelerated as usual it grabbed back over towards the rh kerb then slapped back to the left.
It was a close call.
It happened the other day again round a roundabout but in auto but didnt grab quite as much.
It has only happened the two times and I have no idea why.
Mike you must have experienced this sometime any ideas??
Over to Mr Wood.............
PS Mike are you down this Sat or busy??
14 February 2005, 05:01 PM
#32
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Something similar happened to me in an Evo VI. Caught it and it was probably the AYC that saved it that time. Have heard of Subaru's variable torque system in the new model but wondered how well it was done.
14 February 2005, 06:00 PM
#34
I've done quite a bit of sliding around in a variety of Imprezas (various skid courses, use of a big empty car park across from my work when the weather is interesting etc). The correct response depends entirely on the situation (ie type of skid, how much space you have available, how much grip is available, speed of travel, how far out of control the car is (ie have you let it go too far before starting to take correcting action) etc.
In many cases, balancing the throttle to control the slide and using the steering wheel is the safest option.
In some cases, killing the power by dipping the clutch and regaining control via the steering wheel is the safest option, particularly if you don't have plenty of experience.
Only if you are very experienced and have the luxury of space would I say flooring the throttle was an option.
John
In many cases, balancing the throttle to control the slide and using the steering wheel is the safest option.
In some cases, killing the power by dipping the clutch and regaining control via the steering wheel is the safest option, particularly if you don't have plenty of experience.
Only if you are very experienced and have the luxury of space would I say flooring the throttle was an option.
John
14 February 2005, 06:30 PM
#35
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I'm no guru - but this does sound like Diesel / Oil on the road ..... the sensation is like being on glass ..... 
This is such a shame, but sometimes if you have added too much lock - it can snap back so fast that it's impossible to react fast enough to staighten up! I think Tiny did this at Castle Combe last year ........
This is such a shame, but sometimes if you have added too much lock - it can snap back so fast that it's impossible to react fast enough to staighten up! I think Tiny did this at Castle Combe last year ........
14 February 2005, 07:08 PM
#37
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Hi george, sorry to hear your story. Hope you get sorted out ok and that it hasn't put you off scoobies for life. Talking to a chap the other day who has an 05 sti with the new semi-slick Bridgestone Potenza's on, who said that the car is lethal in damp conditions at a very low speed. It seems to me that these tyres are not suited to our climate and would be better suited to summer and trackday use only.
Paul
Paul
14 February 2005, 07:10 PM
#38
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George,
Sorry and I hope this never happens again.
I can't help but wonder whether on such damp and curvy roads, that Audi has it right. That indeed there is no replacement for extra front-weight (all of it ahead of the axle) and four-wheel drive. Not saying for racing or agility, but for just staying on the road at decent speeds, maybe a slight penalty in agility for stability is not better worth it for some? Also I can't help but wonder how much different 16 inch wheels with 205/215 tires would have reacted? JL
Sorry and I hope this never happens again.
I can't help but wonder whether on such damp and curvy roads, that Audi has it right. That indeed there is no replacement for extra front-weight (all of it ahead of the axle) and four-wheel drive. Not saying for racing or agility, but for just staying on the road at decent speeds, maybe a slight penalty in agility for stability is not better worth it for some? Also I can't help but wonder how much different 16 inch wheels with 205/215 tires would have reacted? JL
14 February 2005, 07:14 PM
#39
Originally Posted by paulsti8
Talking to a chap the other day who has an 05 sti with the new semi-slick Bridgestone Potenza's on, who said that the car is lethal in damp conditions at a very low speed.
14 February 2005, 07:18 PM
#40
Originally Posted by ALi-B
I wouldn't blame the DCCD...the rear LSD causes far more problems with rear-end break away in low traction conditions, especially at slowish speeds. It's quite a nasty trait scoobs have IMO.
Which scoobs are you refering too? there are 4 types of rear diffs in use, open, VC, plated and suretrack.
14 February 2005, 07:28 PM
#41
george, the only reason Audi's are so front heavy is because they didnt have any option that was economically viable. The Audi Quatro was based on a FWD concept with a long 5 pot engine, when they went to AWD they modified the FWD gearbox to provide rear drive.
The Impreza is actually quite similar, that too has a FWD based transmition system converted to AWD, but it doesnt suffer so badly because the flat 4 means its just a little longer than a 2 pot conventional engine so the weight isnt as far forward.
Cars like the escort cossie have a diferent transmition concept, where they started with a RWD gearbox layout then converted that to AWD by installing a front diff forward of the main gearbox assembly at the centre line of the engine and took a step off from the rear output drive to drive a front propshaft.
The basic dynamics of these cars are to a large part dictated by the product history, its quite rare to have a clean sheet of paper aproach.
The Impreza is actually quite similar, that too has a FWD based transmition system converted to AWD, but it doesnt suffer so badly because the flat 4 means its just a little longer than a 2 pot conventional engine so the weight isnt as far forward.
Cars like the escort cossie have a diferent transmition concept, where they started with a RWD gearbox layout then converted that to AWD by installing a front diff forward of the main gearbox assembly at the centre line of the engine and took a step off from the rear output drive to drive a front propshaft.
The basic dynamics of these cars are to a large part dictated by the product history, its quite rare to have a clean sheet of paper aproach.
14 February 2005, 07:40 PM
#42
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
No it doesnt and no it isnt.
Which scoobs are you refering too? there are 4 types of rear diffs in use, open, VC, plated and suretrack.
Which scoobs are you refering too? there are 4 types of rear diffs in use, open, VC, plated and suretrack.
Not sure if I've driven a suretrac equipped one <goes to check model specs
)Still the general dynamics of the rear LSD apply when compared to an open diff in very low traction/slippery roads. Where it can make a bad oversteer situation worse, making the car very sensitive to minor throttle movements, under both lifting off and applying throttle. Great if you get it right, tragic if you get it wrong
14 February 2005, 07:49 PM
#43
I not sure what you mean exactly, can you be more specific as to why you think the rear diff gives some sort of nasty handling trait? Is it that you are used to FWD and you are coming from that angle? or something else?
14 February 2005, 07:51 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by paulsti8
Talking to a chap the other day who has an 05 sti with the new semi-slick Bridgestone Potenza's on, who said that the car is lethal in damp conditions at a very low speed. It seems to me that these tyres are not suited to our climate and would be better suited to summer and trackday use only.
Paul
Paul
Ive driven 10k on RE070's, in the wet and dry, and there is NOTHING wrong with them, they give lots of feedback which is nice, the only conditions ive found them not to be overly suited for, was greasy surfaces, wet and dry were not a problem, but you do have to scrub them in first, as with them being Bridgestones, they have a tendancy to be greasy when new.
Tony
14 February 2005, 08:03 PM
#45
I not sure what you mean exactly, can you be more specific as to why you think the rear diff gives some sort of nasty handling trait? Is it that you are used to FWD and you are coming from that angle? or something else?
). Also RWD with LSD and without.I'm not saying LSDs are bad, but in an oversteer situation under low/grip traction roads, the two wheels are tied together to some extent. Inherantly to regain control, you need to regain traction on both rear wheels which requires good throttle control and some experience. An open diff is more forgiving in these situations especially with a lead foot, excess power can be spun off to some extent through the wheel with the lesser traction. Lift-off whilst in gear still causes problems...but then, who lifts off?
Perhaps what I'm trying to say is it should be given alot more respect and the "good in the twisties" phrases does not apply to drivers who can't control it.
All In my opinion - of course
Last edited by ALi-B; 14 February 2005 at 08:11 PM.
14 February 2005, 08:13 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by TonyBurns
Ah shows you how much he knows about tyres then
Ive driven 10k on RE070's, in the wet and dry, and there is NOTHING wrong with them, they give lots of feedback which is nice, the only conditions ive found them not to be overly suited for, was greasy surfaces, wet and dry were not a problem, but you do have to scrub them in first, as with them being Bridgestones, they have a tendancy to be greasy when new.
Tony
Ive driven 10k on RE070's, in the wet and dry, and there is NOTHING wrong with them, they give lots of feedback which is nice, the only conditions ive found them not to be overly suited for, was greasy surfaces, wet and dry were not a problem, but you do have to scrub them in first, as with them being Bridgestones, they have a tendancy to be greasy when new.
Tony
14 February 2005, 08:45 PM
#47
Who lifts off? i do if its apropriate. I would say the centre diff has more effect on the handling in limited traction situations myself. I wouldnt say you need both rear wheels to regain traction to be in control either, you can be in control with all 4 wheels out of traction if you understand whats going on.
I am still not sure what you are complaining about to be honest.
It's almost imposible to talk about these kinds of things in text, it's far easier to do some driving to show causes, effects and compensations.
I am still not sure what you are complaining about to be honest.
It's almost imposible to talk about these kinds of things in text, it's far easier to do some driving to show causes, effects and compensations.
14 February 2005, 09:27 PM
#48
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Sorry to here about your big accident i would be gutted !
Will tell you about an incident i had last week, I was in first gear ( yes 1st ) and doing a U turn in the road, loads of room so no danger, as the car came around the rear broke free on the greasy road because of this the revs rose and the turbo kicked in, I caught the first slide and counter steered, only for the front to dig in and find grip which had me heading for the nearside pavement, i ended up fishtailing down the road as i counter steered back and forth as the power was changed front to back this was in a matter of seconds, hindsight say's i should have just dipped the clutch and braked but it all happened so quick i was just trying save it going over the kerb ! I never thought i'd lose it in 1st yeah maybe 3rd but not 1st. It was a major wake up call ! And this in a MY04 WRX.
Will tell you about an incident i had last week, I was in first gear ( yes 1st ) and doing a U turn in the road, loads of room so no danger, as the car came around the rear broke free on the greasy road because of this the revs rose and the turbo kicked in, I caught the first slide and counter steered, only for the front to dig in and find grip which had me heading for the nearside pavement, i ended up fishtailing down the road as i counter steered back and forth as the power was changed front to back this was in a matter of seconds, hindsight say's i should have just dipped the clutch and braked but it all happened so quick i was just trying save it going over the kerb ! I never thought i'd lose it in 1st yeah maybe 3rd but not 1st. It was a major wake up call ! And this in a MY04 WRX.
14 February 2005, 09:33 PM
#49
I am still not sure what you are complaining about to be honest.
Am I complaining?...I complain all the time
Yep, the key is to understand what is going in, to the uninitiated thats very tricky to think about whilst in the process of swapping ends
14 February 2005, 09:36 PM
#50
Originally Posted by ALi-B
Yep, the key is to understand what is going in, to the uninitiated thats very tricky to think about whilst in the process of swapping ends
14 February 2005, 09:45 PM
#54
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Sorry to hear about your car.
Some of the WR1 owners have had problems with the A-DCCD, it seems to be mainly if the diff's put in auto.
When most of us picked our cars up the dealers had no idea or details on how the A-DCCD worked. I don't know if this has now changed but hope it has.
Chris
www.wr1oc.co.uk
Some of the WR1 owners have had problems with the A-DCCD, it seems to be mainly if the diff's put in auto.
When most of us picked our cars up the dealers had no idea or details on how the A-DCCD worked. I don't know if this has now changed but hope it has.
Chris
www.wr1oc.co.uk
14 February 2005, 11:42 PM
#55
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John,
"the only reason Audi's are so front heavy is because they didnt have any option that was economically viable. The Audi Quatro was based on a FWD concept with a long 5 pot engine, when they went to AWD they modified the FWD gearbox to provide rear drive."
That indeed is true. However I assert that this serendipidy makes for a more stable and to some extent more forgiving car. (if less agile and manuverable) Lests not forget that the old Performance car mag (John Barker and Meanden at the time) deemed the UrQ the most reassuring in a group test in wet wales some years back. I mean every UrQ driver I've ever spoken with has spoken with some awe about just how stable and forgiving the car is- many owners from on this forum. (one that comes to mind was McEwen) If your not in an absolute race whats wrong with a little added weight over the front tires to keep them planted that bit better in the wet? JL
"the only reason Audi's are so front heavy is because they didnt have any option that was economically viable. The Audi Quatro was based on a FWD concept with a long 5 pot engine, when they went to AWD they modified the FWD gearbox to provide rear drive."
That indeed is true. However I assert that this serendipidy makes for a more stable and to some extent more forgiving car. (if less agile and manuverable) Lests not forget that the old Performance car mag (John Barker and Meanden at the time) deemed the UrQ the most reassuring in a group test in wet wales some years back. I mean every UrQ driver I've ever spoken with has spoken with some awe about just how stable and forgiving the car is- many owners from on this forum. (one that comes to mind was McEwen) If your not in an absolute race whats wrong with a little added weight over the front tires to keep them planted that bit better in the wet? JL
15 February 2005, 12:10 AM
#56
Having weight outside the wheelbase is bad for the dynamics of the car overall in general. Understeer is my pet hate and you always get more understeer with that layout, so personally i couldnt live with it. The long wheelbase Quatro suffered less from the effects of the heavy nose because it had the weight at the rear to compensate but it was quite lazy in its dynamics, the short wheelbase Quatro was pretty horendous by comparison and took a lot of sorting out when they first introduced it.
I would much prefer a neutral/slightly oversteer limited handling car to one that has a tendency to be understeer limited, thats why i dont enjoy driving UK spec Impreza's as much as the DCCD equipped cars.
I am not saying that is the best for everyone, its certainly easier to use understear as the grip limitation for most drivers, but i find understeer extremely anoying as you cant be agresive and as proactive with it at the limits of adheasion, so for outright performance you should avoid it.
I would much prefer a neutral/slightly oversteer limited handling car to one that has a tendency to be understeer limited, thats why i dont enjoy driving UK spec Impreza's as much as the DCCD equipped cars.
I am not saying that is the best for everyone, its certainly easier to use understear as the grip limitation for most drivers, but i find understeer extremely anoying as you cant be agresive and as proactive with it at the limits of adheasion, so for outright performance you should avoid it.
15 February 2005, 05:27 PM
#57
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John,
"I am not saying that is the best for everyone, its certainly easier to use understear as the grip limitation for most drivers, but i find understeer extremely anoying as you cant be agresive and as proactive with it at the limits of adheasion, so for outright performance you should avoid it."
Are you saying that you can positively utilize oversteer on the public road? Aren't you afraid of unknown objects on the other side of the curve? Or are you talking about in emergency situations where you would perposfully break grip and perform a controlled slide? Two quite different things Id say. Whouldn't it simply be safer to drive with enough grip to where you didn't slip much at all? Also have you driven a torsen equiped 20v UrQuattro, they really arn't so lazy. About two years ago Autocar did on on-road comparison of such a URq with a 03' model sti and found that on the road there was nothing in it. Now don't get me wrong I think the Autocar team, are some pretty poor writers, but Harris and Sutcliffe can drive pretty well. Perhaps if you get a chance to drive a dyalix prepped UrQ you mind become slightly more convinced. Thanks, JL
"I am not saying that is the best for everyone, its certainly easier to use understear as the grip limitation for most drivers, but i find understeer extremely anoying as you cant be agresive and as proactive with it at the limits of adheasion, so for outright performance you should avoid it."
Are you saying that you can positively utilize oversteer on the public road? Aren't you afraid of unknown objects on the other side of the curve? Or are you talking about in emergency situations where you would perposfully break grip and perform a controlled slide? Two quite different things Id say. Whouldn't it simply be safer to drive with enough grip to where you didn't slip much at all? Also have you driven a torsen equiped 20v UrQuattro, they really arn't so lazy. About two years ago Autocar did on on-road comparison of such a URq with a 03' model sti and found that on the road there was nothing in it. Now don't get me wrong I think the Autocar team, are some pretty poor writers, but Harris and Sutcliffe can drive pretty well. Perhaps if you get a chance to drive a dyalix prepped UrQ you mind become slightly more convinced. Thanks, JL
15 February 2005, 07:15 PM
#58
I am saying that a neutral to slight oversteer balanced car is a much better proposition for me in all circumstances, including road driving. I dont have a problem with any scenarious you mention driving a car with that balance. Understeer limited cars do not posses the safest balance for me because they limit what i can do with the car too much. Do i use oversteer on the public road? sometimes i do, sometimes i dont. Am i afraid? No.
I dont take what writers in magazines say as reality, if i have an interest in a car i'll have a go myself and make my own mind up. I havnt been in a newish quatro but if it is understeer limited as you are sugesting in what you have written so far, i probably wont like it.
I dont take what writers in magazines say as reality, if i have an interest in a car i'll have a go myself and make my own mind up. I havnt been in a newish quatro but if it is understeer limited as you are sugesting in what you have written so far, i probably wont like it.
15 February 2005, 10:04 PM
#59
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To echo Johns comments earlier
"balancing the throttle to control the slide"
it isn't a simple case of off or on.
"balancing the throttle to control the slide"
it isn't a simple case of off or on.
16 February 2005, 12:55 PM
#60
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Well car is definately written off...not getting another one has really put me off don't want a car that drives itself...please everyone who has one be careful I genuinely think if I had of been in another car this would not have happened. Not sour grapes, but when I read the posts about similar things happening both here and on the wr1 register I worry....