logiclee

Chip,

Did you live in Wales when Thatcher was in power?

Very dark times indeed for most of the country especially for Wales, and most of the country north of Watford.
Parts of the UK have still not recovered from what she did and the selfish out for yourself and sodd everyone else attidude that she bought to this country is the No1 thing I hate about the UK.

To be honest anyone under 35 will not realise just how bad things were under Thatcher for the majority of the country.
The small City minority and a few areas of the south had a good time until it all went bang but I don't know many people (who are old enough) who look back with pleasure at the Thatcher years.

Thatcher did break the unions (Which was a good thing) but at a massive cost to this country both for those involved and for those of us left. Thatcher all but closed down UK's coal industry and to do that the UK's generation market was unfairly slanted towards burning Natural Gas for generation.
The market is now nearly fair, apart from Nuclear which is subsidised, but it's too late. The UK's coal industry is all but gone even though it is the cheapest in Europe, the dash for gas generation has meant the UK's natural gas reserves are all but gone some 20 years earlier than they should have. We are now importing millions of tons of coal and gas and bigger gas pipelines are being built from the Eastern Block countries to supply the UK.
If it wasn't for Thatcher's and Major's policies we would still have cheaply generated UK supplied Electricity and cheap UK supplied gas for at least another 20 years.

Remember that the next time you blame labour for the 40% increase in your fuel bills.

Cheers
Lee

DrJP

I agree completely. I'm in my mid-thirties and I'm Welsh. Living under those b*****d tories was torture for working class people like my family. It strikes me, and surprises me, that the average SN poster is middle class and blinkered enough to believe that the Tories will be any better if they come to power. Micheal Howard, John Redwood,Oliver Letwin - for F***ks sake.

paulr

Tiggers is right you know,the biggest change in your life can be made not by voting Tory or Labour,but...........


























by getting off your fat ar$e and doing something yourself.

































having said that,Tone is still the best Prime Minister in our lifetime.You'll miss him when he's gone....

Chip

Yes I did live in a very antiquated Wales when Maggie came to power. When smoke belched out of chimneys and men dug black coal out from the ground.

Well times move on and the smoke is no longer there as along came a cleaner cheaper fuel called gas which is in real terms cheaper today than 25 years ago.

When Maggie came to power she said it would hurt to put the country back on a good footing. It did hurt. But for the better. People could buy their houses from the council as well so they could take a bit of pride in what they had.

Remember what the previous Labour administration was like that was in power before Maggie. The party that had to borrow from the IMF to stop the country from going bust.

Oh werent they good days then under Labour. 3 day weeks,no power, no lights at night. Wonderful was'nt it.

Chip

Diesel

Yes I think similar events here will be linked to criminalising car ownershiop, driving over any cat's eyes and to any thoughts of doing 5mph over the speed limit (although it will be initially limited to a trial in Wales)

How dare you - you make me 'a creative' sound like a chimney sweep; industrial proleteriat indeed!

Seriously though all this cynicism expressed here makes me further depressed about politics. The points are very well put though and makes me wonder if my there is actually any point in wasting time on expressing my disillutionment with the current government?

Would voting for the Tories (yes me an industrious member of the proleteriat is considering it) actually CHANGE anything? Well I HAVE to believe so before I too give up. They may mitigate much of what I consider unfair in Labour's actions and inactions. If they cap council tax, cap fuel tax, limit immigration, index link many taxes/thresholds and reign Brusntrom in, it might be a start! Ohh and read my lips - 'no more sneaky taxes'!!!

I HAVE TO BELIEVE (for now)

tiggers

hedgehog,

As ever your post is very thought provoking. Given that I agree that we are unlikely to get any respite from the 'control politics' from any other party what do you suggest that we could sensibly do to fight this. I know we can lobby locally on various issues, but surely we need something a little more radical and larger in scale to counter all that seems to be 'coming our way'

I still think the problem is that a lot of people still want to cling to the belief that voting another party in will solve the problems. Until that mindset starts to be eroded surely there is little that can really be done.

Diesel,

I like the way you're thinking - your beliefs are starting to crumble - come over to the dark side

Regards,

tiggers.

Flatcapdriver

Lee, whilst I understand your argument regarding power generation there have been some major benefits from the UK's "dash for gas" policy not least of which is the significant reduction in CO2 output which makes us one of the least polluting nations in the EU.

You have to remember that we're much farther down the road than most countries in terms of our economic development which has used up most of the UK's natural resources. After all, the Industrial Revolution happened several hundred years ago and those resources have been feeding our manufacturing base ever since, not that they were that massive to begin with so it's inevitable that they would run out sooner or later.

The reason energy prices are so high currently has nothing to do with the Coal industry and the Thatcher Government but more to do with the uncertain times we live in. LPG/methane prices are nearly 85% higher than they were a year ago, some of which has to be passed on to the consumer.

What Thatcher left us with is a legacy that many people still don't appreciate and perhaps won't for at least another generation but her Government's policies were of a "no pain, no gain" type which alienated much of the electorate. For instance, you mention the selfish attitude that is prevalent in the UK, which, if you look at it a different way has always been part of our social make up. The power that the Unions had prior to her gaining power was very damaging for the country and relegated us to the league of also rans in world economic terms - they literally shut down companies because of disputes over what a canteen should serve for lunch - selfish or what?

The introduction of free market reforms has taken the best part of a decade for us to realise the benefit and is one of the reasons why the UK economy has grown by 3% this year compared to less than 2% for Germany and France, both of which suffer from strong unions and inflexible labour markets. However much people loathe it, the ability to hire and fire a workforce has meant that many companies and indeed the economy have done so well over the last 10 years or so - and survived.

Would a change of Government result in a change for the better? Hard to say because the electorate has yet to completely tire of the incumbents, suffice to say that Labour are certainly no better in terms of sleaze than the Tories were but certainly have greater expertise in managing/spinning a situation to avert major political damage. Just watch the outcome of the inquiry into Blunkett's misdemeanours to see what I mean - how an inquiry that has such a narrow remit can honestly investigate the situation without giving him a clean bill of health is beyond me but that is the skill of the Labour spin doctors!

Since Labour adopted the majority of the Conservative's policies it's very hard to differentiate between the two major parties particularly as Labour inherited an economy in robust health, which with all credit to them, have managed to keep on an even keel but had this been a Labour Government of old then I think we'd be up **** creek without a paddle. My money would be on another Labour term and then they'll be out, hopefully leaving a legacy (although I'm yet to be convinced) of a strong National Health Service that has the funds and competencies to maintain itself for a long time to come. As for the rest of Labour's pledges on education, railways and transport infrastructure they've already failed and won't have time in the next session to undo the damage they've caused and I doubt the Tories could either.

All I would say, irrespective of your political persuasion, is that the last 10 years have been great but now (just as it was with the Tories in the '80s) it's time for the party to be paid for. Don't be surprised at another Labour term but be prepared to pay higher taxes, not only at income level but also CGT on any equity increases that your property may realise. Conversely, vote Conservative but don't expect taxes to decrease to any extent and don't expect things to get better overnight.

Leslie

Its Eu federation and the Eu constitution which frightens me though. It means the total loss of our effective freedom of life I predict.

Les

Vegescoob

Hear hear.

Diesel

What a horrifying thought - already clobbered by huge mortgage payments because of the ridiculous house price inflation [whilst remaining terified interest rates go up...] and then kicked in the nuts over any equity increase. s c a r e e e e

Tory it is then Tiggers

D
[great post flat cap btw]

paulr

What freedoms will we lose?

logiclee

It may suprise you chip that on a level playing field it is cheaper to generate electricity with coal than gas. There isn't much difference in CO2 emissions and flue gas desulphurisation plants and scubbers are able to remove the other nasties that in the old days caused acid rain.

Men no longer dig coal from the ground in modernised countries. You are thinking 1970's when we had the Ford Cortina and no PC's.
A modern coal face can cost upto £100 million to install, cuts upto a 100000 tons a week and is operated by just a handfull of people.
We could have been mining this ourselves but instead we import millions of tons of coal from abroad at a price nearly 60% more expensive than our own. This cost is all passed onto you and I.

As to other comments on this thread about things moving on, remember the USA, Canada, most of the rest of Europe and the developing economies are actually increasing output and clean coal generation.
Germany has the most expensive industry which is illegaly heavily subsidised by the Governent. If the UK had the capacity to export, it would be cheaper for the German government to pay thier miners to stay at home and do nothing and import UK coal to burn in Germany's power stations.

The Fact is if we hadn't had the dash for gas we would have far cheaper electricity generation and enough gas reserves to keep the UK supplied cheaply for another 20 years.

The UK is only suffering from massive world price fluctuations in the Coal and Gas market because we chucked away our coal reserves and used all our natural gas reserves generating electricity.
Tory policies are responsble for the current mess and high fuel bills and that is fact.

To those of us in the Electricity Generation, what has happened appears nothing short of criminal

Cheers
Lee

Flatcapdriver

Lee, whilst I don't doubt your qualifications with regard to electricity supply your points about electricity generation are ambiguous to say the least. In 2000/2002 coal production was heavily subsidised in the UK by the Labour Government which is one reason why coal would appear to be a cheaper fuel. Coal production has declined in Germany, UK, France and Spain over the last two decades and is only on the rise in the accession countries of the EU so quite where you can make such sweeping statements as most other countries increasing their production, I don't know?

Gas prices have nothing to do with coal - nothing, nada, not a sausage. There is no correlation at all so how this is a fault of Tory policy is tenuous at best. I'll repeat what I said earlier - current high energy costs are a result of inordinately high oil/gas prices, nothing whatsoever to do with either Labour or Tory policy no matter how much you want to blame Government policy.

UK coal reserves were dwindling and mines were extremely inefficient and expensive to operate, so no matter how much you dislike the Tory party the simple fact of the matter is that sooner or later the mines would have had to close. If coal powered stations had been allowed to continue, then we would now be suffering from high import costs of foreign coal which would have increased our energy bills even more.

Sprint Chief

I don't know enough about the coal industry to comment on the rest of the article, but I know enough about the marketplace to know that this statement is simply wrong.

The UK internal price for coal in the scheme you've laid out would fluctuate along with the world price for coal, just as it does with gas and oil. To prevent this happening would require illegal anti-competitive practices that would have the WTO on us like a ton of bricks. The belief that we would sell coal within the UK cheaply when we could sell it abroad for more is naive. The only exception to this is if trade barriers collapsed and we became an isolated country, but short of world war three that ain't gonna happen.

logiclee

Sorry mate the majority of what your saying iis completely untrue. Coal production was not heavily subsidised in 2002/2003. Grants where given to the mining industry by the DTi in-line with EU guidelines. These grants were issued to offset massive investment in future projects. They did not form a subsidy and contributed less than 10% of the total investment to map out future reserves.
The total amount given to the industry was less than 8% of the total amount taken out of the pension scheme by the Government since privatisation.
The UK followed EU guidlines, no other EU member did.

Cheers
Lee

logiclee

Errrr........

UK coal is sold at around £1.10 a gigajoule, on the world market it's around £1.80-£1.90. The UK's product is tied into long term contracts with the generators. We could never sell to our competitors due to most of our competitors having state owned subsidised industries.

There is no fair market for the WTO to get involved in. The actual price that UK coal is produced at is around £20 a ton, in Columbia around £50 a ton in Poland it's around £50 a ton and Germany is around £90 a ton. These foriegn industries are heavily subsidised into the £1000's of millions yet are allowed to flood the world "free" market with thier product.

Imagine Germany subsidising BMW and selling cars over here for 20% of thier true cost. Wouldn't be allowed to happen would it?

Anyway sorry for taking Pete's thread off topic.

Cheers
Lee

Flatcapdriver

Lee. Can you show me where coal/coal fired power stations even come close to CO2 emission levels? Can you show me how coal has influenced the current high cost of oil/gas? Can you prove to me that Germany/Spain and France are increasing coal production? Can you prove to me that if the UK had retained it's coal fields, the cost of electricity would be lower?

If you can I may begin to agree with you but as it is, all you've done is attempted to lay the blame on Tory policy of a decade ago and whilst there have been far too many partisan comments on both sides of the political fence (that clearly don't stack up) within this thread, the only reason I've responded to yours is that I have a fair amount of experience within the UK energy scene.

If coal was so cost effective to extract in the UK, then why hasn't this Government re-opened the coal fields/reserves that supposedly still exist?

logiclee

The cost of sinking a new mine runs close to £1000million, no private company will risk that kind of investment.
All UK mining is privately owned.

Lee

Sprint Chief

OK Now I'm really confused. You obviously know the facts but from what you describe the whole marketplace is distorted in a bizarre way. So we're selling coal under its market value, which in itself is absurd and ultimately damaging, the world price is higher but apparently we can't sell because other countries sell cheaper due to subsidy - which implies the world price is lower???

To me the problem looks like one of controlled foreign markets (although I can't help feeling there is a piece of the jigsaw missing because there are contradictory statements in the above). The best solution sounds like if the WTO DID get involved and put a proper marketplace in position. Its a bit like saying if shell could sell cheaper to its own garages that would be a good thing because the consumer could get cheaper petrol but in truth it prevents competition and ultimately hurts the consumer.

Sounds like the problem is with international trade to me, rather than anything a UK government has done, from what you describe.