911

Andy, have you seen my email to you yet?!
911

Andy.F

Yes, just getting through the backlog today after 3 weeks away on honeymoon !!

David_Wallis

You got married?? Unlucky.

Andy.F

no more playing with fast cars for me then

911

No,No,No.
Trick is to marry a girl who actually LIKES all the bloody car thing!

I did, and wev'e made it so far for 26 years! But the work you have to do to get the Brownie points is HUGE.

Congrats Andy, email me when you can. Incidentally, now have 550cc injectors and Walbro in the garage if that makes any difference to the turbo choice.

911

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Andy,

Holy deadlock eh!? Good luck mate!

Sorry I missed your call today, l'll try again tomorrow.

David APi Engines / APi Impreza

harvey

iTrader: (48)

John B. I see you are now casting aspersions on my results, 585 bhp and 464 ft/lbs.
What has happened since you got your Ion Turbo in March, I think, to bring you to this conclusion, other than your inability to get your anticipated results on your 2.5 litre.

john banks

I never believed it in the first place Harvey, neither do many others, it is unrealistic for the size of turbo, dreaming. Everyone else with 500 BHP or more is about a second quicker than you on the 1/4 mile. With race fuel on a realistic dyno I could believe 500-520 BHP, but running results on race fuel is not a realist way to benchmark a turbo.

It is rated as a 450 BHP turbo by iON. Garrett rate the GT30R in its proper housings as up to 500 BHP. As Paul has pointed out the airflows required for 585 BHP are rather more than the turbo is capable of.

I'm getting benchmark results on the 20G, I swap to the iON and find it is only 10% bigger with nothing else changed on the setup.

You produced a single result of 585 BHP from an optimistic dyno and expect us all to believe it without question. I don't certainly.

The Fixer

John, how can you be so sceptical when the same dyno managed 370 from a VF28 (modified)? It does surprise me that iON would badge a turbo thats capable of 585 HP with a 450 badge Perhaps they were a little naive when they made it Based on this theory then Jon Stokes iON P650 should make 785 HP + a little extra (because its a 2.65 litre) say 800 then at Well Lane in the future???

[Flame Suit On]

Wonder Wagon

<Sits down in chair, puts marshmallows on me fork and awaits the flames>

tweenierob

Wallis, was gonna Pm you..

Whats the chances of getting some in car footage? No dig intended mate would make enjoyable viewing.

R.

'And its all gone quiet over there'...

R19KET

Rob,

Surely that depends what he's doing at the time !

Mark.

tweenierob

Trust you to lower the tone


I feel sick

Rob

R19KET

Wallis christening his car ?
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SOLO ?

Mark.

richto

errrm - just a thought, but isnt it in a Dyno owners interest to produce excessively high results - the Nova squad will flock down to get a print out?

The USA figures in particular often seem very high.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Hi Rob : Havn`t got time to amuse you just now. Too close to my bed time. Marshmallows ? Is that anything to do with Fluff Bunny ?

John B : I don`t have to prove anything to you or anybody else and I am not answerable to anybody. My achievements in the Scooby world speak for themselves. As far as I know it was the first road going Scooby to break 400 bhp with 417 bhp. It was at a Shootout with other cars expected to do well and nobody questioned my result then. Not long after the car did 415 bhp at G-Force and the car was capable enough to win Scooby Shootout 2003 with 11.74 seconds and 1.95 60 foot. It was around 500 bhp at the time and essentially an every day car. It then progressed from 417 bhp to 585 bhp on the same rollers. The only reason I use Well Lane is that it is nearest to me and obviously it is important to stick with the same rollers for comparative reasons.
If you are so sure it is Well Lane`s rollers then get yourself down here and show us what power you can get. Can`t be fairer than that if you have the courage of your convictions. I can throw in £100 towards your petrol and overnight accomodation.
Just out of curiosity, how many times have you run at Well Lane to be an expert on their equipment ?
For some time I and others have had the impression that you were out to better my results, for what ever reason I do not know. The fiasco of arranging a special day at Dastek and the importance of comparing your results with mine at Prosport. You have conveniently forgotten my 499 ft.lbs of torque before the engine came on full power and the run was aborted because of slip.
Now let me get this right. You have known all along that I never got 585 bhp / 464 ft.lbs at Well Lane but after all the effort you put in to checking up on what I was doing and no doubt bombarding Ion with numerous e-mails and lots of questions, you still went out and bought an Ion turbo. Why ?
Now get a few things right. The 585 bhp result was not a one off or done in isolation. Determined to get 600 bhp I had a series of runs over a ten day period and I was impressed with the consistency 578 - 594 bhp but I gave up and 600 eluded me.
When I purchased the turbo it was never referred to as a P450 and I think that designation does not refer to the rated bhp but whatever, I was assured by Jack that the turbo I was buying would be capable of well over 500 bhp in the right circumstances.
When the 585 bhp run was done at the rolling road day I think it was with 200+ Club, against Skylines, Grant Parkers mental VW, and so on. I never heard anybody saying their cars were making more than expected and just liike I was not expected to have the most power when the 417 was made there were several other cars expected to take the day on that occasion.
Well Lane said it was the most powerful car they had ever had on their rollers and whatever the result the consistency of their rollers is proven as far as I am concerned.
There is a hell of a lot more in getting good power out of a car than bolting on a turbo as demonstrated by the progression from 417 - 585 bhp. You seem very quick to blame the rollers or the turbo. I am sure you are not accusing me of cheating.
I think you have already said you have mapped it conservatively and you are running far less boost than I did so I guess if you map it like a girl then you get girlie results. Why not let Bob have a look at it before you come to Well Lane. Anyway, I am going to bed now.
PS: Conrad : Just remind me. It was you I stopped to help in the BP Services in Nottingham ? How long ago was that ?

Scoob+Bike=Fun

I must admit that I havn't read the full post, but.... I have just finished running my 2.5 in, well I have covered approx 4.5k kms in it since the engine went in, the parts have been:

engine, courtesy of Mark A
new 2.5 oil and water pumps,
gasket set
some various parts that needed replacing anyway( crank sensor, up pipe etc)
exedy hyper single lightweight flywheel and clutch (not needed, but I wanted them while the engine was out anyway)

NO problems what so ever up to now, but running 0.4bar of boost untill my e-manage piggyback arrives, I must say, there is a noticible increace in torque, and I will probobly always stay with 2.5's in subarus now,"there aint no substitute for cubes"

gearbox and everything fine

just my 2p

Scoob+Bike=Fun

must say though that i hardly ever go into boost, just waiting for piggy back. it is essential that you get one of these at least.

tweenierob

Hi harvey, u dissapoint!! bit of banter will help u sleep

I have clocked up about 5k on my EJ257 now with the TD05, i also agree that i will never go back to a 2.0lt.
My car made full boost (1.5bar) by 2800 and was so driveable. Being able to put my foot down in 5th gear at 2k without the need to change down is quality!!
If i hadnt played with ALS and ran boost at 2.3bar my little turbo would still be making me smile. PMSL!

Am at work and bored so i may as well post some **** for you to read

Although the higher power builds do require extra bits i still believe you can replace a 2.0 with an EJ257 on a budget. My car was approx 330hp and prob the same in torque on the TD05, addmittedly i did make the wise move to upgrade to a Lateral clutch but as far as buying another gearbox/drivetrain my car still runs a 5 speed and imho would have kept going at that power level.
So....
No need for a bigger turbo, my TD05 was 90degree non ported and only boost creeped up to 1.2bar above 6k, my AVCR is set to drop boost from 1.5bar to1.2 at 6500 and does so.
ECU, although i am on an Autronic, i would personally be happy with a Pavlo Scoobyecu remap again or an Apexi option, 97/98cars can be catered for with an Apexi, 99onwards an Ecutek.
People say you need injectors, maybe i was lucky? i ran my 380's (4of) at 4bar atmospheric and at full boost (including when i was running 1.5bar to the redline) i could adjust the map to give me anything from as rich as 9:1 AFR all the way through. 440's do come through cheap and would aid safety levels if need be and are std on later cars.
FMIC, £580 from Harvey, or maybe a later STi cooler, should flow 330hp?
OIl pump, gaskets and consumables, all nessecary for a rebuild anyway.
Fuel pump n Reg, I would only ever buy an SX/Aeromotive Reg again and walboro 255, bit pricey at about £300ish for the pair with fittings but IMHO a good buy for a 2.0anyway.

I suppose all of this is easy for me to spout on about as i can do it myself but most of the build and installation costs will be the same as any other build.

Anyway, bored now...

Back onto topic, will john stokes make 785bhp

R.

The Fixer

It was a while ago Harvey I wouldnt have been there if Scoobymania hadnt left my car without water in it If I remember correctly I helped you also, you were lost and I gave you directions to Scoobymania

Either way, not really relevant in the context of this thread

john banks

I'm not out to better you Harvey, I'm not interested in top end only results but a wide power band that is usable rather than one that peaks torque right at the top. I've not even seen a Well Lane plot from your car that shows that yet.

I see little point in running at Well Lane from the cooling I saw, and the way the cars are "held" down, slipping all over the place until a run that is deemed about right is produced. I don't take as valid figures from rollers when cars struggle to make traction. The Prosport runs similarly, you can't infer anything except that the car slipped. I know the result at Well Lane would be a sham whether high or low at this level. I will run at Dastek or Star because they have far better traction.

I had suspicions all along that the turbo was over-rated, but at the time when I ordered there weren't many results on anything else. I did not expect 585 BHP from it and if I did I would not believe it, it is utterly ludicrous for such a small turbo, as Paul points out your VE must be nearly 120% ROTFLOL.

If you put race fuel in and go to the highest reading rollers that are slipping and then produce a result, it should not be surprising when others use the same turbo and fall far short, it is setting yourself up for a fall.

Why with 120-200 BHP less did Steven Darley get 1/4 times that were about 0.3 seconds slower? Does it really take that much power to put on that time?

Is Andy's car in the mid 500s less powerful than your 585 at Well Lane?

Hardly anyone will ever say their car makes more power than they expect it to!

My engine is mapped at low boost and conservatively, because the gains for going bonkers on it are tiny and are just aimed at dyno queening which is a pointless exercise. You obviously grossly overestimate what mapping involves when I tell you I can run 11.5:1 AFR and ignition on boost just shy of detonation and then plot power curves that converge at the top end with higher and higher boost, and then you think you can get more power out of it just by mapping it differently. What are you going to do magic it out of a hat? Enlighten me please....

As far as I can tell, with the breathing mods I've got, just bolting on a bigger turbo and mapping it is all you need to do. There is no magic voodoo about it, the turbo is just too small, needs propping up with silly octane to do the figures.

I'm not that conservative if I get 434 BHP and 395 lbft out of a 20G. Andy had 440 IIRC. Putting on a bigger turbo should immediately give a rise in power, always has before, don't see what is complicated about that.

Mr J

When I sort my case of overboost on My Deadbolt Zilla it would be fun to se what i can do with plain 98.

I have a smaller version of the turbo that Paul has and I geus It will more than 50bhp down vs Paul since he have better heads etc


The power is arraound 370Whp&(G-tech pro comp) so far but I have not been abel to hold boost up in the rpm range, with very low timing (10-20deg)
so hoping for 450Bhp with 1.4-1.5bar hold.


Jan

David_Wallis

When steven did SSO, he was around 350 - 360 and around the 330lbft iirc at well lane.. iirc..

Cant quite remember which headers were on at the time, so cant say about a power figure.

FWIW, when we were at prosport (as you were john) trouts car had too much power.. so much so the tyres were smoking.. They said any run where the rollers slipped should be discounted, so much so the only way we got a power figure was to run 1 bar of boost.

Rob: do you mean new stuff??? or the stuff from totb3 when I missed gears and blew a boost hose off and changed up early.. the only one I have is http://www.scoobyecu.co.uk/totb3_dw_quarter_pipeoff.wmv

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Rob, do you mean the stuff from Scoobyduck's website?

Pavlo

Harvey,

May car consistently produced flywheel power outputs of 640+hp at power engineering, I wasn't satisfied with the results, neither was the RR operator, as we knew them to be false, so we changed the running of the car to get a much more realistic 500 or so hp, would have been a little more if the car wasn't running so lean.

I would be very interested to know what had changed from the 520hp runs at Well Lane to the 585hp runs. If you have left the cam timing, turbo, exhaust and fuel type the same, then that is some impressive gains. My fear is that you want to believe the good figure, but will now struggle to better them on any other rolling road, leaving your self short changed on the surface, when in fact you've made good gains.

Paul

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Back on topic

I've just costed up what I feel I'd need for a MY94 WRX Wagon thats already had a full turbo back decat, other than that standard

Gaskets £50
Water pump £100
Plugs £40
FMIC* £600
K+N ind kit* £100
up-pipe £120
port headers £80
short block £1500
Clutch £200
TD05 RA £350
Fuel pump/reg* £200
Power FC/AVC £1000

* means added before so as to split the cost, all others fitted at same time to reduce labour costs

So basically I have to spend £900 on the FMIC, induction kit and Fuel pump/reg and fit it myself.

Then spend £670 getting the turbo, up-pipe and clutch and store it in the garage...

Then save £1700 + labour to fit all parts (£750???) assuming garage supplies and fits engine.

Then once run in spend £1000 on the ECU/mapping.

A few questions, assuming I want to run 330 BHP/torque (as in 380 injectors OK if fuel pressure raised)

1. Is there anything I've missed out?
2. Will the early gearboxes handle it? - I heard MY99 5 speeds are stronger
3. Will the OE ecu be OK to run in the engine, if I keep off boost and up the fuel pressure to compensate for the extra capacity?
4. Total spend £5k approx, does that sound right?

T-uk

I thought we where all beyond this comparing different rollers. harvey has used the same rollers through his stages and has shown gain after gain , it does not matter how high the rollers read compared to others but that the latest mod has added something.

I think, like many the figures from well lane dyno days are high and seem to remember bob rawle posting something like PE,G-force and Prosport read similar, well lane add 30bhp, power station less 30bhp.

given this difference and the fact that star reads similar to power station jb might not be far out with his findings. it is still a bit early to say how dastek reads as the last day read 10% or so lower than even star but new software? or something should be in place for the 30th.

I am very interested to know which rollers harvey will be using for his new 600bhp build given that well lane have told him they are unable to run his car now?


thanks for that harvey . it was not a special day to compare your car to jb's but a small event which the owner wanted a range of cars to test and get feed back on his set-up. why jb with standard internals, would be trying to out do you with a RCM build and race fuel is a nonsense IMO. the shape of the graphs would be interesting but there is no way he should be able to compete with the figures.

for this reason I had got interest from a standard P1 which had been modded by the time the day was supposed to happen. also a standard sti8 which the owner had to pull out of the week before. then as mid 300bhp cars was mine with leaking up-pipe and still slugged boost for the standard clutch and murrays which last I heard, he could not get started the week before the event. 400bhp cars which 1 let go, another had been invited to a rally last minute leaving only one. then there was jb's which was still waiting on the ion and yours which could not make it also.

sorry if this seemed a fiasco to you but I though it was a nice spread of power to try a new set up with a small number of cars rather than ending up with another prosport.

harvey,

if you have not been up to dastek yet , why not bring the wrx up for the 30th and see what you make of the place?

I hear star are also moving/moved premises so with possibly improved cooling and dastek on our door step, you may see why it seems pointless for us scots to travel to rollers already with so may questions over their accuracy and slip issues.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

£50 for gaskets is a bit optimistic. You really should fit a pair of gaskets of similar thickness to STi Vers 4 steel gaskets at about £85.00 plus VAT Head studs would be a good idea. The remaining gaskets and seals will come to about 50 or 60 quid after that.

The squish area on old WRX heads is not ideal and you'll need to carefully calculate the compression ratio that will be created to ensure that it is in the order of 8.3:1 or no more than 8.5:1 or you'll have problems with cylinder pressures.

Good Luck David APi Engines / APi Impreza

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Jay, to start off with, you don't have to change your engine to acheive 330 brake, ok the torque may not be that high, but anyway...I ran around 350 brake 310lb/ft of torque on a standard UK engine with bolt on mods, and it ran for 35k miles without a problem despite the slappy engine for all that time. The car was damn quick, and I only decided to change it because it had 90k miles on it and I wanted more power

To do this all you would really need to have is:
TD05 front entry
Spacers to lift the inlet manifold
440cc injectors (just for added safety margin)
Up-rated Fuel Pump and pressure reg
An induction kit
An FMIC
A mappable ECU, on your car this could be done with a Scooby ECU.

But, if you really need that torque, or a new engine then the 2.5 isn't a bad route to go...I would have thought that 330/330 could be achievable without resorting to a FMIC, but sticking with a later type top mount intercooler, either out of an MY98 or, if you can get one, a new age STi. I'd also suggest looking at fitting some Sti 3/4 heads

Based on my own experience, and robbing bits off your old engine, the build could cost:

EJ257 Short Engine 1500
Assembly of Engine (inc spliting short engine, honing of bores, supply of cam belt pulleys, tensioner, cam covers gaskets etc ) 1000
Head gaskets 100
ARP Head studs 200
RCMS up-rated Oil Pump 250
Water Pump 75
Heads 450
Cam Belt 50
Inlet Manifold spacers 50
440cc injectors 200
Fuel pump and Reg 200
Clutch 350
TD05 Front Entry 350
Induction kit 75
Misc bit's and bobs 200
TMIC upto 300
ECU and Mapping upto 1000

So a grand total of around 6350

Ok there are areas you could save money and areas that you could spend more, but I hope this helps!

Pavlo

So does this mean my car has over 670hp at well lane?

My point is there are factors that allow errors to be introduced which are made worse with both power and roller speed. New rollers do not have some of these, which makes comparisons of changes to a high hp car more accountable.

I think that Harvey's results are very much on topic. If they are accurate then why should we consider a non bolt-on turbo, and why even go to the trouble of getting a 2.5 some might say?

I would be interested to know what gear was used at Well lane for Harvey's runs, it would certainly explain a lot. At PE we didn't even try 5th gear as it would have made the results even worse (ie higher) despite the reduction of wheel torque which you would normally consider makes it easier.

Paul